CMH vs LED vs HPS

[Crooked8]

View attachment 18837968

Is this not classic Ca toxicity?

I've done many water-only grows under LED. The leaves get darker, the stems get purple the lobes get burnt and leaves curl as key nutes run out. Transplant and everything gets better for a couple weeks before the same symptoms return. Is something remaining abundant in soil/plant tissue while key nutrients are depleted? When nitrogen deficiency shows up we know it's not a build up of N causing the dark curled burnt leaves, as people will always claim.

So what causes dark leaves and purple stems? What causes tip/lobe burn? What causes the hooded claw look? It's not Nitrogen, and never has been. Google "nutrient burn" and only weed websites show up oddly enough.

Led does not need more calcium. Led seems to need more zinc potassium phosphorus magnesium, boron, things that Ca messes with.

That run got overfed for certain. This is when we were trying to decide where ec needed to be post conversion. You are correct, they dont just need Ca, they need more everything. A direct increase in relation to ppfd increase. Good eye. At one point this tray saw 2.9 ec, way high. The ones at 2.2-2.4 ec didnt or barely displayed tip necrosis.

 

[goingrey]

Got a reference handy for those “calcium hairs”? I’ve heard people mention it before, but I’ve never seen any peer reviewed lit on the subject.

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs | Microscopy Today | Cambridge Core

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs - Volume 9 Issue 4

www.cambridge.org

The paper suggests that looking for calcium carbonate in "trichomes, commonly called cystolithic hairs" could be a way to identify if they are from cannabis or some other plant. Note, cannabis in general - not LED grown specifically.

 

[WingzHauser]

Got a reference handy for those “calcium hairs”? I’ve heard people mention it before, but I’ve never seen any peer reviewed lit on the subject.

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs

www.academia.edu

Exogenous Calcium in Cannabis seems like a well known problem outside of weed forums. I'm really curious is large extract companies are quantifying cellular composition of their trichomes. The trend of short shelf life and cold curing/terpene preservation instead of LOX curing coincides with the CaCO3> Silica trend.

Calcium Oxalate Crystal in Cannabis, SEM - Science Source Images

License this stock video and more footage of Stock footage A SEM image of the edge of a leaf shows a calcium oxalate crystal. These crystals are found throughout the plant and are responsible for throat irritation when medical marijuana is smoked. Plants that have too many oxalate crystals are...

www.sciencesource.com

Calcium oxalate crystal in Cannabis | Sciencephotography.com

tedkinsman.photoshelter.com

My understanding is that Cannabis will uptake insane amounts of calcium and pack it away, unmetabolized, while altering lipid metabolism. So you end up with things like Calcium oxalate soap/urinal cake weed instead of stinky good tasting medical sour skunk bud.

Oxalic acid is chemically similar to vinegar. While trying to find a better shower cleaning method, I observed that vinegar extracts a grease from powdery soap scum. Citric is even worse at turning dry soap scum into grease (but cleans sebum from textured shower floors great,without killing you like oven cleaner does).

Taking the mechanical approach seems to help Cannabis users visualize chemistry: Hard water + grease requires extra saponins/sulfates/acids etc to translocate. There's a pretty obvious connection between excess CaCO3 and failed fat metabolism. You can look at mice bone strength studies involving calcium boron and phosphorus and the changes in fat composition. Turns out excess calcium doesn't make bones strong, it just creates calcium deposits. And boric acid can strip fat from bones if fed alone.

Fat metabolism is the most interesting aspect of Cannabis, since it all stems from LOX (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0272893). When I spray my crusty shower with citric acid, you get a citrus smell in the air. Citric acid has no smell. It's doing something to the fats stuck in the shower floor (never get textured shower floors). Same with rust. Rust has no smell but you can detect what it does to the fatty acids in your nose. The break down of fats creates cannabis aromas and effects and calcium interferes with that process.

Excess calcium = hard water soapscum bud essentially. No excess exogenous calcium, no calcium soaps/salts/crystals ruining your Led bud.

Calcium boosting has been preached in Cannabis from the days when all "Cannabis" nutes were rebranded rose and tomatoe nutes. The Cannabis scene is full of misdirection. Once everyone has the same strain and same nutes, the legacy guys have no advantage. So that's where all the backwards info comes from. Anyone looking at old leaves to identify a calcium deficiency can be ignored as calcium deficiency would show up blatantly in new growth if anyone ever actually had calcium deficiency. 9 times out of 10 they are looking at old damage from a long standing boron deficiency, caused by excess calcium.

If Calcium fixed all these led problems like people claim, why does every indoor grow have dark curled leaves with burn margins and why does their weed smell weird taste bad and not get you medicated? It's pretty though. It's not excess N. All the growers I trust started adding Epsom when switching to Led. What does magnesium do? Antagonizes excess calcium.. What does sulfate do? Regulate Nitrogen and Nitrogen metabolism via Manganese.. I dare anyone to replace their calmag with bor-pot--phos-mag under led. Watch the purple stalks disappear.

Calcium has one purpose in Cannabis and it's to synergize with cytokinin for tighter internode. Which creates a shade situation people ignore. I get better yield with 9" internode and natural 3 dimensional canopy than 2" internode and flat 2D canopy. The strains that tolerate excess Ca from legacy rebranded tomatoe nutes are the ones you buy at rec shops. Muffin weed. Everyone wonders where the old strains are.. They been turned into Muffin weed. Even if you do want tight internode shading 90% of your plants, there's many other ways to boost cytokinin. Like a blue dominant veg spectrum, the standard practice before leds came along. I would rather push K to keep plants short, than lock out K with Ca, if I was stuck growing in vivosun tents. Tall ceilings and sativa friendly nutrition will change the kind of weed you let yourself grow.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs

Marijuana Identification: A Test for Calcium in Cystolithic Hairs

www.academia.edu

Exogenous Calcium in Cannabis seems like a well known problem outside of weed forums. I'm really curious is large extract companies are quantifying cellular composition of their trichomes. The trend of short shelf life and cold curing/terpene preservation instead of LOX curing coincides with the CaCO3> Silica trend.

Calcium Oxalate Crystal in Cannabis, SEM - Science Source Images

License this stock video and more footage of Stock footage A SEM image of the edge of a leaf shows a calcium oxalate crystal. These crystals are found throughout the plant and are responsible for throat irritation when medical marijuana is smoked. Plants that have too many oxalate crystals are...

www.sciencesource.com

Calcium oxalate crystal in Cannabis | Sciencephotography.com

tedkinsman.photoshelter.com

My understanding is that Cannabis will uptake insane amounts of calcium and pack it away, unmetabolized, while altering lipid metabolism. So you end up with things like Calcium oxalate soap/urinal cake weed instead of stinky good tasting medical sour skunk bud.

Oxalic acid is chemically similar to vinegar. While trying to find a better shower cleaning method, I observed that vinegar extracts a grease from powdery soap scum. Citric is even worse at turning dry soap scum into grease (but cleans sebum from textured shower floors great,without killing you like oven cleaner does).

Taking the mechanical approach seems to help Cannabis users visualize chemistry: Hard water + grease requires extra saponins/sulfates/acids etc to translocate. There's a pretty obvious connection between excess CaCO3 and failed fat metabolism. You can look at mice bone strength studies involving calcium boron and phosphorus and the changes in fat composition. Turns out excess calcium doesn't make bones strong, it just creates calcium deposits. And boric acid can strip fat from bones if fed alone.

Fat metabolism is the most interesting aspect of Cannabis, since it all stems from LOX (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0272893). When I spray my crusty shower with citric acid, you get a citrus smell in the air. Citric acid has no smell. It's doing something to the fats stuck in the shower floor (never get textured shower floors). Same with rust. Rust has no smell but you can detect what it does to the fatty acids in your nose. The break down of fats creates cannabis aromas and effects and calcium interferes with that process.

Excess calcium = hard water soapscum bud essentially. No excess exogenous calcium, no calcium soaps/salts/crystals ruining your Led bud.

Calcium boosting has been preached in Cannabis from the days when all "Cannabis" nutes were rebranded rose and tomatoe nutes. The Cannabis scene is full of misdirection. Once everyone has the same strain and same nutes, the legacy guys have no advantage. So that's where all the backwards info comes from. Anyone looking at old leaves to identify a calcium deficiency can be ignored as calcium deficiency would show up blatantly in new growth if anyone ever actually had calcium deficiency. 9 times out of 10 they are looking at old damage from a long standing boron deficiency, caused by excess calcium.

If Calcium fixed all these led problems like people claim, why does every indoor grow have dark curled leaves with burn margins and why does their weed smell weird taste bad and not get you medicated? It's pretty though. It's not excess N. All the growers I trust started adding Epsom when switching to Led. What does magnesium do? Antagonizes excess calcium.. What does sulfate do? Regulate Nitrogen and Nitrogen metabolism via Manganese.. I dare anyone to replace their calmag with bor-pot--phos-mag under led. Watch the purple stalks disappear.

Calcium has one purpose in Cannabis and it's to synergize with cytokinin for tighter internode. Which creates a shade situation people ignore. I get better yield with 9" internode and natural 3 dimensional canopy than 2" internode and flat 2D canopy. The strains that tolerate excess Ca from legacy rebranded tomatoe nutes are the ones you buy at rec shops. Muffin weed. Everyone wonders where the old strains are.. They been turned into Muffin weed. Even if you do want tight internode shading 90% of your plants, there's many other ways to boost cytokinin. Like a blue dominant veg spectrum, the standard practice before leds came along. I would rather push K to keep plants short, than lock out K with Ca, if I was stuck growing in vivosun tents. Tall ceilings and sativa friendly nutrition will change the kind of weed you let yourself grow.

Interesting points, and I’ve heard others mention similar issue with excess Ca. My question is why would Ca accumulate in the trichs? My understanding is the glandular trichromes are mostly Si in the form of Silicates. Depending on the pH silicate carries a negative charge, while Ca is always plus 2. So, it seems to me Ca wouldn’t chemically sub for Si in trichromes, unless it’s replacing 2x monovalent cations, or some other divalent cation.

Im thinking about trying a gravimetric analysis for Ca content on some of my old led grown bud, and my currently flowering bud under Cmh. My thought is : Calcine a sample of flower, dissolve residue in HCl, ppt out Ca and Mg as the carbonate with ammonium carbonate. The leftover insoluble should be mostly SiO2 and some transition metal oxides.

I’f there are any a measurable differences, that may provide some insight on mineral distribution between the two lighting sources.

 

[snakedope]

Well I'm no scientist, but that sounds like an awesome test that will reveal a lot.
I don't think the Ca is in the trichome head, it's hairs that grows instead of the trichomes, not in them, or long hairs with a tiny trichome at the end, so mostly Ca neck, no Si head.

 

[Vegg69guerilla]

Well sounds like you know all there is to know! That leafy underripe haze plant is the best anyone can hope to achieve and had the most cannabinoid content, even at only 400 watts! Im sure you had cannabinoid and tissue testing done through that grow. The current growers in the commercial and home grow industry ALL have been conned into led. Thanks for clarification man, im gonna have to straighten this out with all the people i know who have nearly doubled their yield per sq foot with cannabinoid tests higher than ever using Led. Their improved morphology is just a mirage. Ill let em know what youve done here and well change everything to haze strains under 400w hps! Thanks for the egg of knowledge you cracked on everyone us led folks are all just dummies. Cant wait to be crazy rich! Im gonna throw this type of stuff out from now on…

View attachment 18837893 View attachment 18837894 View attachment 18837895

lolol...go look around the Internet properly you tool and see for yourself..you and your donkey dick grow proves what exactly..and the under ripe haze plant is the only vaulted I have left in history so I showed it. and it ended fatter than you think before you quote ppl..led in the common grow market from what I've seen across the board..fuck it even potency doesn't ring the same as hps or halide...you just sitting there boosting your little led grow because you like em..if you do a good job..Great...but I've seen hundreds not as fortunate as your fucking ego ass brother...you say led...I say hps...end of story...and stop trying to sound smart..you don't even sound good at it...lolol...big smiles!!

 

[Crooked8]

lolol...go look around the Internet properly you tool and see for yourself..you and your donkey dick grow proves what exactly..and the under ripe haze plant is the only vaulted I have left in history so I showed it. and it ended fatter than you think before you quote ppl..led in the common grow market from what I've seen across the board..fuck it even potency doesn't ring the same as hps or halide...you just sitting there boosting your little led grow because you like em..if you do a good job..Great...but I've seen hundreds not as fortunate as your fucking ego ass brother...you say led...I say hps...end of story...and stop trying to sound smart..you don't even sound good at it...lolol...big smiles!!

Clearly you cant even understand what im talking about. It was funny to watch you try! You must be new to this thread, cruise through it. Youll see my work with both types of light in small and commercial environments. Maybe you should look through more of the internet.

 

[Ca++]

View attachment 18837968

Is this not classic Ca toxicity?

I've done many water-only grows under LED. The leaves get darker, the stems get purple the lobes get burnt and leaves curl as key nutes run out. Transplant and everything gets better for a couple weeks before the same symptoms return. Is something remaining abundant in soil/plant tissue while key nutrients are depleted? When nitrogen deficiency shows up we know it's not a build up of N causing the dark curled burnt leaves, as people will always claim.

So what causes dark leaves and purple stems? What causes tip/lobe burn? What causes the hooded claw look? It's not Nitrogen, and never has been. Google "nutrient burn" and only weed websites show up oddly enough.

Led does not need more calcium. Led seems to need more zinc potassium phosphorus magnesium, boron, things that Ca messes with.

The accumulation of the green colour, isn't what I see in grow. I get a lot of dark glossy effects with Ca increased, but it's not so even over the leaf. I will see it as in the pic I'm about to add. Also, I will see green pooling almost, towards the front of the leaf. Even a bit of ripple in the pools, but not the cupping downward.

I think you may have excess P which might show Fe and Mg signs. Their uptake is promoted, so higher than usual levels may be needed.


This next one is interesting. Notice the similarities between excess P and the signs often called light burn.

I have not given it enough thought, but we do know feeds carry a lot of P, and we are constantly being told we don't need so much. I gave my last plants a lick of it as I was blooming with grow feed, and it browned the hairs off. Something I have known for ages follows PK use.

I can't answer your problem, but perhaps this helps your thinking on the subject.

 

[Ca++]

How is going from 1000w to 600w 480w less? 1000-600 is 400, 400 watts less, 40% less heat. I have also grown in commercial and small grows in the tristate area as well as northern and southern ca. In a well insulated environment with adequate lighting and all cardinal parameters in check. If you need added heat and dehumidification, buying an adequate dehum makes way more sense than laboring your ac more than necessary, thats incredibly inefficient.

It's the same thing. The dehu~ and AC contain the same part. Only one puts the hot bit outside, and one keeps it inside. The dehu~ is what I used, when I said sort of AC. However sizing one is difficult. They have a fixed effort compressor, but our grows RH potential is varied. So we fit a stat, and they start cycling. With off times of 15 mins plus a typical minimum setting of the machine. However the AC plant might use a screw compressor which can actually vary it's effort. That is good kit though. We probably have a fixed effort install. What we can vary though, is that recirculation, that gives some control over keeping it running, without freezing the room. It seems you don't run AC for it's drying abilities, so I appreciate the idea is foreign. I too was a bit put back when I first heard of it. People are actually selling replacement controls for window bangers to meet the humidity demand while not cooling too much. It's a level of control that needs a series of dehu's to replicate. Such that some dehu's keep running, while others switch on/off.

The 1000w HID is lamp power. The ballast will take about 80w on top of this. 1080w at the wall.
The LED is often rated as wall consumption. There is no exact answer to what each will take, when given typical details. For my calculations, it didn't really matter. I was just putting some light on the idea that LED lighting emits less heat. This idea is complicated by the light it produces, turning to heat that might need dealing with in some circumstances.


In another setting, I saw a 600 hps swapped for 720w of led. The extraction system was taken to the lamp/s in each case. The grow got colder. The prior attempt to vacuum heat away from the hps was little use. As we touched on, you can't use a fan to move radiated heat. However with the LEDs doing little more than heating the air around the, the extraction system could keep the lights cool. In effect, 720w should heat a closed space more than 600w, but the heat from the LED fixtures is easier to remove at source. The extract was pulling out hotter air. Making it more efficient.
This is why air cooled LEDs could save the AC a lot of work, if it's only there for heat reasons. Of that 720w, 240w is just sucked away before it gets in the room. Then your 1000w+ capable AC, has 480w to deal with. Not 720w. So your lighting bill drops 30% and your AC bill drops 50%. So far you have got it down 25% so there is room for improvement. If you really don't need the dehumidification.

 

[Vegg69guerilla]

I'll show you what hps does and why i stick with it..not interested in science on paper..this 70 day old vegged exodus cut cheese x agent orange f1 2009 has just started flowering under a 400w hps...pure organics and the best pics you'll see on the Internet of a grower who knows his shit...don't need lessons sunbeam..you need learning!

you'll eat those words in front of me..watch and learn playboy...oh and I'll document 2 roadkills under a 400w hps in a m3 area to show my regard for hps..you enjoy your science..the whole reason I originally quoted what I did here was to wait for the parrot fish paragraph brigade come on and baffle you with bullshit,exactly what you did...can't have anyone online calling led shit now can we?...perish the thought!!!!

 

[Ca++]

I remember the first LEDs in my flower space. They stood on the floor, looking up. People scoffed at the idea, telling me leaves wouldn't see it. That was a room of 6s that always did the same. The yield increase was higher per watt, than the 6s did. Just with 150lm/w cobs. The gain was really about plant lighting in a space that turned rubbish into good. Not a comparison, as they had different uses. However, the result was unexpected. Watt for watt, the LEDs on the floor did more for me than the main lights. Where I couldn't really add more light. It was adequate.

In these terms, I couldn't say LED was no good. An HID couldn't do that useful job. It is the same with side lighting. LED can fit where HID can't. Putting buds where there would be non. My current run is an HID in a square tent. Using an LED in each corner. We all know what a lux meter would say about a single HIDs distribution. Something like 9 under the light, and 3 in the corners. Corners where I don't want to hand 100w HIDs as they are as efficient as a cfl in small sizes. IIRC a 100w HPS is about 90lm/w and a 150 is 100lm/w. Not equal to a 6s 150lm/w. Which in turn is midrange in LED terms.

I don't see any real discussion about the 150w HPS grows now. Once they were competitive threads about 150w grows. It's only at 315 upwards that there seems to be anyone liking HID now. Here I am, using 4s n 6s still. Yet my 70 150 and 250 are scrap value to me.

 

[goingrey]

Calcium has one purpose in Cannabis and it's to synergize with cytokinin for tighter internode

That can't be right. This is not cannabis-specific but still, many purposes..

Calcium—Nutrient and Messenger

Calcium is an essential element needed for growth and development of plants under both non-stressed and stress conditions. It thereby fulfills a dual function, being not only an important factor for cell wall and membrane stability, but also serving as a second messenger in many developmental...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[JKD]

I'll show you what hps does and why i stick with it..not interested in science on paper..this 70 day old vegged exodus cut cheese x agent orange f1 2009 has just started flowering under a 400w hps...pure organics and the best pics you'll see on the Internet of a grower who knows his shit...don't need lessons sunbeam..you need learning!

you'll eat those words in front of me..watch and learn playboy...oh and I'll document 2 roadkills under a 400w hps in a m3 area to show my regard for hps..you enjoy your science..the whole reason I originally quoted what I did here was to wait for the parrot fish paragraph brigade come on and baffle you with bullshit,exactly what you did...can't have anyone online calling led shit now can we?...perish the thought!!!!

This is one of Crooked8s’ pics from 10 years ago. What sort of lights do you think he was using? Take the time to look through his media & read his posts.

https://www.icmag.com/media/img-0904.16453283/

greyfader (formerly delta9nxs) is another very experienced large scale grower in this thread who formerly used HPS, DJM is another.

It makes no sense to argue as though these guys have never used HID before.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

It is not “easier” to cool an led vs an hps with radiant heat.

Sure it is. Most of the heat a LED produces rises up from the fixture as warm air. Suck that out and your grow area doesn't really warm up at all. Huge ammount of HID heat comes out as IR which lands on all lit surfaces in your room warming them up. That heat must then convect into the air and only then you can remove it. In a sealed environment they would need the same AC of course since the total ammount of heat would be the same.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Is it this radiant heat or just a more complete spectrum that provides a more complex high?

Leds seem to have too much oomph in the wrong spectrum. The plants purpling up is the plants showing they dont like the light and dont want to take it up. The leaves crinkling and spotting is the plants saying there is a problem.

From pictures of people's plants It's a problem that most, if not all leds show.

But let's not say its the lights ffs! say its calcium, too little food, vpd, temperature, too much blue, the moon, the genetics...

ANYTHING BUT THE LIGHTS.

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Is it this radiant heat or just a more complete spectrum that provides a more complex high?

It doesn't.

 

[Mars Hydro Led]

I think you should build something tubular with diodes on all sides that would replace a vertical hung hps.

that sounds cool. it might be a new trend. now we have Sp3000 that can be hanged vertically like that. https://www.mars-hydro.com/sp-3000-samsung-lm301b-greenhouse-led-grow-light

 

[exoticrobotic]

It doesn't.

It does

 

[Corpselover Fat]

Yes, before we release a new light, we will get feedback from growers do some market investigations. to meet the growers' buyers' demand is the top priority. thanks for your suggestion.

Fify ;P


Do a fixture with a proper reflector. I don't understand why noone makes fixtures with reflectors. Wall losses are a thing.

 

[greyfader]

This is one of Crooked8s’ pics from 10 years ago. What sort of lights do you think he was using? Take the time to look through his media & read his posts.

https://www.icmag.com/media/img-0904.16453283/

greyfader (formerly delta9nxs) is another very experienced large scale grower in this thread who formerly used HPS, DJM is another.

It makes no sense to argue as though these guys have never used HID before.

thank you! i have 21 years of hps, metal halide, and cmh experience and 5 years with leds. i will never go back to hps simply because of the wasted electrical energy needed to operate them. both the huge amount of IR produced by the lamp and the energy needed to keep temperatures in check.