CMH vs LED vs HPS

[Broggemann]

 

[exoticrobotic]

The resin doesnt stick and has absolutely zero smell to it.

My experience too. Sandy crap...Worse than slate...

 

[Gooseman23]

People who think LED can’t grow good bud are delusional. It’s ok to think HPS is better or CMH but if it is better it is better as in the terps are 1% higher or the THC is 1% higher. Basically what I mean is better by a small margin. And if you’re LED bud is boof then you either have the wrong LED brand. The wrong light size for your space. Or you just plain and simple don’t know what you’re doing. I’ve grown with HPS,LED, and CMH… and you can grow good bud with all of them. That’s not hear say that personal experience.

 

[exoticrobotic]

It depends what your definition of good is @Gooseman23

And if you’re LED bud is boof then you either have the wrong LED brand. The wrong light size for your space. Or you just plain and simple don’t know what you’re doing.

or not enough heat, or not enough calcium, or vpd issues, or not enough far red, or wrong led brand.

Soooo.... Leds make growing difficult and expensive for mostly mediocre results.

They should be called L or Ds, with this many ors.

 

[exoticrobotic]

It’s ok to think HPS is better or CMH but if it is better it is better as in the terps are 1% higher or the THC is 1% higher. Basically what I mean is better by a small margin.

It's not a small margin quality difference i see.

Lab results only measure a few cannabinoids and terps, there are 100s of them.

leds grow much more bud weight than my cmh does but when i make hash with both i end up with more hash weight and better quality hash ( stickier, smellier, more transparent, more complex high ) with the cmh grown plants.

It's like comparing a bacardi breezer with a single malt.

 

[Gooseman23]

It depends what your definition of good is @Gooseman23



or not enough heat, or not enough calcium, or vpd issues, or not enough far red, or wrong led brand.

Soooo.... Leds make growing difficult and expensive for mostly mediocre results.

They should be called L or Ds, with this many ors.

No not at all. o guess I’m just good at it becasye I had no issues switching to LED. But whatever dude I don’t care if you grow with a candle it’s your bud… you let the one smoking it. I’m just telling you personal experience. I used all 3 and got god bud from them all. I also had some mediocre runs from them all. They all work. That’s a fact. Some people get better results with different ones. Which could depend on a whole lotta factors like Environment and genetics. But just as LED has ideal growing conditions so does HPS and dependin on your environment one might be better for you than the other. Grow with the one you like. But do not go around making up things like LED only grows boof when that’s just not true. And if you think it is them as I said before you just lack knowledge and don’t know what you’re doing…

 

[Gooseman23]

It's not a small margin quality difference i see.

Lab results only measure a few cannabinoids and terps, there are 100s of them.

leds grow much more bud weight than my cmh does but when i make hash with both i end up with more hash weight and better quality hash ( stickier, smellier, more transparent, more complex high ) with the cmh grown plants.

It's like comparing a bacardi breezer with a single malt.

But that’s the thing tho unlike hps LED has so many different spectrums to chose from which would play a role in bud quality. So my point is with All the variables in LED it’s possible you just got it wrong and didn’t do enough research. What LED are you using? for example an hlg 300l rspec then there is hlg 300l bspec. Then there is hlg 350r but then there are 3 different versions of that light with different spectrums. So you see you have tried one spectrum and decided LED doesn’t work but unless you’ve tried them all you can’t say LED is no good. Just say the ones you tried didn’t give the quality you were looking for. Then share the brand of light you used so others know what to expect…

 

[exoticrobotic]

What led brand and strains did you have good experience with @Gooseman23 and which ones had more mediocre results?

Yes the lights all work... The buds all get me high, just some much more than others

But do not go around making up things like LED only grows boof when that’s just not true.

For me that is how it has been. Not total boof but more boof than with cmh

Mostly generic highs, not enough difference in highs between vars with the maxi bright led i used.

 

[exoticrobotic]

Just say the ones you tried didn’t give the quality you were looking for. Then share the brand of light you used so others know what to expect…

I shared that info at the start but to save searching it was a maxibright 300w full spectrum with added red

I too wish to understand what works and what doesn't with leds. Spectrums and strains included.

 

[Gooseman23]

It's not a small margin quality difference i see.

Lab results only measure a few cannabinoids and terps, there are 100s of them.

leds grow much more bud weight than my cmh does but when i make hash with both i end up with more hash weight and better quality hash ( stickier, smellier, more transparent, more complex high ) with the cmh grown plants.

It's like comparing a bacardi breezer with a single malt.

I’ve got no problem sharing the light I run which hlg 350r. And that is a light I can assure you will give good quality. There are also LED that you can completely control the spectrum and tune it for the stage of growth you’re in. As I said before I’m not saying hps isn’t good I’m just saying tal going overboar

What led brand and strains did you have good experience with @Gooseman23 and which ones had more mediocre results?

Yes the lights all work... The buds all get me high, just some much more than others



For me that is how it has been. Not total boof but more boof than with cmh

Mostly generic highs, not enough difference in highs between vars with the maxi bright led i used.

oh yea ok I use hlg 350r an Humboldt seed company exotic genetix solfire those are some breeders gear that I run

 

[Gooseman23]

I shared that info at the start but to save searching it was a maxibright 300w full spectrum with added red

I too wish to understand what works and what doesn't with leds. Spectrums and strains included.

And something else to consider is genetics for sure. I guess the breeders I use use led so they would be releasing strains that did good under LED maybe? I’m not sure but man LES works for me. I’ve always got the best smoke around me

I shared that info at the start but to save searching it was a maxibright 300w full spectrum with added red

I too wish to understand what works and what doesn't with leds. Spectrums and strains included.

nah see you’re actually willing to have a conversation and share what you used. I can respect that more than the guys who just come in bashing LED with no real experience with it. But I don’t know about maxibright I can say I see they have a 300w led that only has 460ppf and this hlg 350r has 1011 ppf from a 330 watt power draw. Sooo one thing this light is like twice as efficient. That spectrum I’m not sure about but I do see it’s full spectrum but I don’t see many light that go all the way to 800 on par I have heard too much far red isn’t good for flowering. But yea at first glance that’s all o see I’ll look into the light more when I get a chance

 

[exoticrobotic]

And something else to consider is genetics for sure. I guess the breeders I use use led so they would be releasing strains that did good under LED maybe?

That could well be a factor as the genetics i grew were from 15 years ago so likely grown and selected under hid.

 

[Crooked8]

Please elaborate what took getting used to with leds?

This is my experience too with the mixed white spectrum leds which appear to my eye as more cool white in colour.

Constantly unhappy sick looking plants with rust spots, unnatural purpling, brown and yellow necrotic edges.

Plants showing enhanced purpling. These previously unseen extra anthocyanins a clear indication the plants are under stress. All ultimately translating to a plant that is less able to express its full and true potential with respect to terpenes and cannabinoids.



Wait 15 weeks and smoke it. It's great really . I hope it still gets you high and you dont end up chain smoking chasing that missing hid buzz like i'm doing.

Dont get me wrong. led can grow large buds that get you high but if you have been smoking for 30 years and growing for that time you will discern a difference.

Where's the wow with led bud?

It's generally in the photo not the high...

There is a TON to unpack here. Ill do my best but it will be rather difficult to summarize years of effort into this post.

First, with LED, you get what you give. You cannot buy a Fohse high wattage insane Ppfd output fixture and run it in a 4x4 tent with no co2 enrichment and feed 1.5ec. Your plants will suffer immediately.

Here is something most growers dont seem to know, if you plan to exceed 600ppfd without co2 enrichment you are wasting your money. Plants cannot benefit from higher ppfd without supplementation of co2. This is not my opinion, this is science. Your plants will still grow and mature at a standard pace but without the potential yield and growth rates being seen.

If youre running LED with an average ppfd of 900-1000+ your feed will need to reflect this. In the most dialed 1000 w De HPS room ive run we struggled to average above 800 ppfd. This was swapping ballasts annualy with bulb swaps every 3rd turn. With agrobar leds, we average 1100+ ppfd and this required more feed, about 15-18% more. We didnt understand this early on and simply added “more calmag” and expected it to all be fine, “our friends” “our buddies” told us so….. No, plants went P and K deficient and acidified their root zone seeking more P(more available at lower ph and its mobile unlike calcium, common mistake) which in turn inevitably causes toxicity of Manganese(rapidly absorbed at low ph, the reason for inner veinal necrotic symptoms). *this is exactly what i see other new led growers experiencing often and sounds identical to your issues, early purpling isnt all about the plant producing more anthocyanin it is phosphorous deficiency. This is accompanied by yellowing and inner veinal necrosis. We needed to up ALL levels of feed for the increase in photons and we also benefitted from increasing co2 to 1100ppm.(previously with hps we saw little benefit to exceeding 900-1000ppm). You cannot run a Lamborghini motor in a honda civic body with bald tires, this is the single most important lesson I can break down when it comes to LEDs.

If you come in here talking shit on LEDs, but you havent put in the work to provide a top tier environment and the necessary time, your words are those of a quitter and someone who didnt research everything necessary. You've denied yourself the best quality and quantity possible due to your own complacency.

I was that person. I hated on LEDs for a long time. Im very glad I came around.

 

[exoticrobotic]

If youre running LED with an average ppfd of 900-1000+ your feed will need to reflect this. In the most dialed 1000 w De HPS room ive run we struggled to average above 800 ppfd. This was swapping ballasts annualy with bulb swaps every 3rd turn. With agrobar leds, we average 1100+ ppfd and this required more feed, about 15-18% more. We didnt understand this early on and simply added “more calmag” and expected it to all be fine, “our friends” “our buddies” told us so….. No, plants went P and K deficient and acidified their root zone seeking more K(more available at lower ph) which in turn inevitably causes toxicity of Manganese(the reason for inner veinal necrotic symptoms). *this is exactly what i see other new led growers experiencing often and sounds identical to your issues, early purpling isnt all about the plant producing more anthocyanin it is phosphorous deficiency. This is accompanied by yellowing and inner veinal necrosis. We needed to up ALL levels of feed for the increase in photons and we also benefitted from increasing co2 to 1100ppm.(previously with hps we saw little benefit to exceeding 900-1000ppm). You cannot run a Lamborghini motor in a honda civic body with bald tires, this is the single most important lesson I can break down when it comes to LEDs.

Thankyou for such a detailed explanation.

Do you use any heating around the rootzone of the plants or any other heating?

I find the plants under led are taking up water/nutes at a much slower rate vs cmh.

 

[Crooked8]

Thankyou for such a detailed explanation.

Do you use any heating around the rootzone of the plants or any other heating?

I find the plants under led are taking up water/nutes at a much slower rate vs cmh.

No, but ive only run rooms with multiple lights throwing plenty of their own heat. If you lived in Alaska running a single 300w led yes you would need to keep the room heated to proper temp. The same would go for a 300w cmh or hps. Watt for watt the btu output is THE SAME. Another common misconception.

I suspect the reason your plants arent taking up water/feed is because other cardinal parameters werent in check.
What is your average ppfd, what is your co2 level at? Where is your Ec and PH? What Temps and RH? This all matters.

 

[Cerathule]

Thankyou for such a detailed explanation.

Do you use any heating around the rootzone of the plants or any other heating?

I find the plants under led are taking up water/nutes at a much slower rate vs cmh.

Of course, water use is largerly influenced by the leaves transpiration, so leaf surface temps influnce that by the HIDs radiant heat emissions

Your plants you showed a few pages ago were not nourished correctly, that's not the lamp's fault

 

[Cerathule]

I had to swap T5s from 460nm to 6500k to 660nm to 730nm to 10000K to UVB

because you don't know what you're doing
/facepalm

 

[exoticrobotic]

I suspect the reason your plants arent taking up water/feed is because other cardinal parameters werent in check.
What is your average ppfd, what is your co2 level at? Where is your Ec and PH? What Temps and RH? This all matters.

I only measure temps and rh, both unusually low with leds.

I suppose 300watts is 300watts whether it's cmh, hps or leds.

The cmh seems to have much better light/heat penetration which allows a better leaf/room temperature and better humidity in my cold environment.

cmh aims the radiant heat downwards towards the plants which may be helping vs leds which dissipate that heat upwards away from the plants.

 

[Crooked8]

I only measure temps and rh, both unusually low with leds.

I suppose 300watts is 300watts whether it's cmh, hps or leds.

The cmh seems to have much better light/heat penetration which allows a better leaf/room temperature and better humidity in my cold environment.

cmh aims the radiant heat downwards towards the plants which may be helping vs leds which dissipate that heat upwards away from the plants.

Everything you just said is 100% on the money.

 

[exoticrobotic]

When i grew in a heavily insulated room with no temperature/humidity issues although i saw marked improvement in yield with leds vs cmh, the quality was not comparable.

Not sure whether this could be related to the lights originally used in selecting and developing the strain as this was likely hid or the sun.

I was actually pleasantly surprised how well they flowered under the leds. i got well over 1 gpw with the leds where i got 0.7 with the cmh. I still had the brown spotting under leds but it didnt seem to bother the plants.

It was when i came to smoke them that i realised something was up.

You all carry on with the leds you have dialled in but I'll be sticking to cmh.