Chelates for trace minerals?

[Pangea]

What does decomposition % vs PAN % correlate to or mean? The soy bean meal is close, but the alfalfa meal is quite different at 4% PAN, 48% decomposed at day 28.

My alfalfa meal is 3% nitrogen, 16% protein. I completely decompose my alfalfa meal in 10 - 15 days at 150 degrees.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Not all organic inputs provide Nitrogen, some consume N as they decompose, ie Kelp Meal--so PAN% and decomposition % can be different. Alfalfa and Kelp Meal/Extract are low PAN% providers...but no worries as these organic inputs are not usually selected for their Nitrogen capacities.

In the study I cited, the 28 and 70 day interval is equivalent to 600 and 1500 degree days...which you are barely getting if you cook your alfalfa for 15 days at 150 degrees (probably you are getting the equivalent of 90 degrees or so per day).

But, why? If your alfalfa is fully decomposed, what are the benefits of using after cooking that long? I would imagine not much of anything would be "plant available" at this point. It is my understanding that once an organic input is fully decomposed the "plant available" nutrients also diminish.

 

[FatherEarth]

E420, it can be done. I took a long season outdoor soil and brought it indoors. Some of the best herb Ive seen has come from soils built this way or similar. Ill have to dig into my pdfs and come back. The Big plants outdoors thread is a testament to this sort of soil building. You can clearly see who has done their homework at the end of each season.

 

[EclipseFour20]

So the logic is....fully decomposed Alfalfa Meal is a better soil amendment than "non-decomposed" meal?

I would love to see some science to back this up...a simple analysis of Alfalfa's components before and after should tell the tale--Triacontanol, Vitamin A, Thiamine, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, Pyridoxine, Choline, Bentaine, Folic Acid, enzymes, proteins, etc.

Hard to believe that any of those alfalfa components are enhanced after cooking at the equivalent of 1500 degree days. Guess we will chalk this up to "bro-science".

 

[milkyjoe]

Just to clarify...you are talking compouds right? Obviously ions can be held.

It is an interesting point I had not considered

 

[Pangea]

My compost definitely hits 1200-1500 degree days in 20 days or less, no problem, then if im a head of things It will sit for longer.

What happens to the alfalfa or other organic material when it decomposes? The components don't disappear. For N it is fixed to stable humus, clays and into the microbiome. By utilizing a full and complete soil food web with a balanced and loaded BCSE you can get much more from your organic materials, thats where the protein content comes into play. 30 billion organisms per cubic inch, works out to 7 trill per gal, there is a lot going on there, and if done properly will create a feed back loop of give and take from the plant and soil. Build and feed the soil, not the plant(PAN)

The ultimate goal is to also be able to fix N from the atmosphere as well, it'd be sweet to pull some roots up and see nodules.

Research the benefits of compost.

 

[Pangea]

Organic form of soil nitrogen
http://karnet.up.wroc.pl/~weber/azot2.htm

 

[milkyjoe]

Don't disagree at all with that. Just talking about compounds like tria for example. When it breaks down it does so into ions I assume...you gain the benefit of the ions but you lose the benefit of the compound itself.

Maybe...I certainly don't know that for a fact

 

[Pangea]

Yeah I'd think thats a safe assumption, if you want tria from alfalfa I'd use it fresh. Though I sometimes do see weird tria like leaf mutations when I use composted alfalfa, but always assume its couldnt be as the composting must break it down...

 

[EclipseFour20]

My compost definitely hits 1200-1500 degree days in 20 days or less, no problem, then if im a head of things It will sit for longer.

What happens to the alfalfa or other organic material when it decomposes? The components don't disappear. For N it is fixed to stable humus, clays and into the microbiome. By utilizing a full and complete soil food web with a balanced and loaded BCSE you can get much more from your organic materials, thats where the protein content comes into play. 30 billion organisms per cubic inch, works out to 7 trill per gal, there is a lot going on there, and if done properly will create a feed back loop of give and take from the plant and soil. Build and feed the soil, not the plant(PAN)

The ultimate goal is to also be able to fix N from the atmosphere as well, it'd be sweet to pull some roots up and see nodules.

Research the benefits of compost.

I think you are confusing "mineralization" with the term "decomposition".

Decomposition is the process which soil organic matter is broken down (or specifically polymers into monomers)...which includes the process of humification.

Mineralization is the complete breakdown of decomposed organic substances with the end products being CO2, H2O and nutrients (or specifically--it is the release of inorganic compounds from monomers).

BTW, the linked study titled, "Nutrient supply from organic amendments applied to unvegetated soil, lettuce and orchardgrass" is worthy of reading.....

"Organic amendments are increasingly being utilized in alternative
and low input production systems, typically in the
form of waste by-products of livestock production (e.g.,
manure and compost), animal processing (e.g., feather meal,
blood meal, crab meal), or plant materials (e.g., alfalfa meal,
seaweed). Total nutrient content is easily measured; however,
there is a need for improving the understanding of the
relative timing and amount of nutrient supplied to plants."

http://pubs.aic.ca/doi/pdf/10.4141/S05-021

I doubt they "decomposed" their Alfalfa Meal--but maybe the 6 month data might be relevant to those that do.

Comparing $/lb to other organic alternatives, IMHO Alfalfa Meal is the more expensive route if you are primarily seeking humus building and Nitrogen fixing. The primary benefits I seek (Triacontanol, Vitamin A, Thiamine, Riboflavin, Pantothenic Acid, Niacin, Pyridoxine, Choline, Bentaine, Folic Acid, enzymes, proteins, etc) are rendered "ineffective" when heated to 150 degrees for 10-15 days. I want "mineralization" of these components...not "decomposition".

But to each his own, some of us "mineralize" others "decompose".

 

[EclipseFour20]

Yeah I'd think thats a safe assumption, if you want tria from alfalfa I'd use it fresh. Though I sometimes do see weird tria like leaf mutations when I use composted alfalfa, but always assume its couldnt be as the composting must break it down...

Yep...some of the alfalfa field studies concluded weird shit can happen to plants during the 2nd year; big bountiful harvest in 1st year after application, but lackluster plants and germination issues were common place in the 2nd year. Go figure.

Also....if the alfalfa is of the "green manure" type (dead un-decomposed alfalfa plant--not the dry "meal" or "pellet" variety), then decomposing is a must. Which means your method of 10-15 days at 150 degrees is one way of getting there. Lots of people grow alfalfa as a cover crop and plow it under...which makes you wonder---did the original recipe/procedure call for the "green manure" variety, not the dried meal or pellet variety--hence the need to decompose so long.

I concede that Alfalfa Meal is not technically "decomposed" (but it does decompose rather fast)....it also is not considered "green manure" (which decomposes rather slowly); sort of in-between the two.

 

[bowdilla]

this thread is literally soil science class all over again, perhaps even more in depth, and geared towards cannabis. thanks for the awesome thread everyone

 

[Pangea]

"Mineralization is a biological process in which organic substances are converted to inorganic substances by soil microorganisms whereas decomposition could be due to physical, chemical or biological processes. So mineralization is one of the decomposition processes."


"mineralization is one potential end-point for decomposition of organic material. Decomposition is a more general term, and includes any structural changes to the molecules that occur over time"

Composting is not just decomposing, it is mineralizing in the most efficient and complex manner that we know of.

Alfalfa meal pellets are as near of complete source of "food" to build a balanced soil that one can find in a single source, and its pretty cheap, $200-$400(organic)/tonne about the same as NH4NO3.

Like I said many paths to victory, I'm not into forcing anything upon my plants, cannabis produces plenty of its own vitamins and complex compounds, no need to muck it up by forcing other plant extracts into them, imo that will off balance what she produces naturally. I'd be more into cannibalizing healthy cannabis plants for use as a foliar full plant extract on cannabis plants that arent in tip top.

 

[EclipseFour20]

I think you are finally getting it...you must have "decomposition" before you have "mineralization" (which is the point/title of this thread, "chelates for trace minerals").

Scientifically, once the organic matter's polymers are converted to monomers...then the magic of conversion of the monomers to inorganic substances is possible (polymers do not directly convert to inorganic substances--got to have decomposition first).

So, I think we agree, it would be less than accurate to conclude that these processes are interchangeable (composting vs decomposing vs mineralization). Each have a different function with a different output from different inputs.

BTW...anyone here buying soil amendments by the ton?...lol. How many tons of organic Alfalfa Meal equal 1 ton of synthetic Ammonia Nitrate? 20 to 30 or so is my guess....or 1/20 - 1/30th of a ton of Ammonia Nitrate is equivalent to 1 ton of Alfalfa Meal...based on NPK equivalents. Assuming both are the same price per ton....then that means Alfalfa can be 20-30 times more expensive; hefty premium.

 

[Pangea]

That ton of alfalfa meal properly complexed into compost and the soil can provide more N than the ammonia.

I buy in tonnes.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Guess we will have to take your word that Alfalfa with a Nitrogen (NPK) in 1-3 range produces more Nitrogen than Ammonia Nitrate...with a Nitrogen in 33-34 range.

BTW...decomposing soil microbes release a fertilizer equivalent to a 10-5-2 NPK analysis, provided the microbes are continuously and adequately fed (can you spell Raw Milk?)...lol. Biofertilizers...ahh, the next wave to ride.

 

[Pangea]

Thats what compost is, the 3% N from alfalfa is miniscule to the "decomposing microbes"(part of the soil food web) that are fed and created from producing a compost from alfalfa meal. Compost is a biofert. All my post are about is the 3%N on the label is not accurate, its not the full story.

What the NPK of raw milk?

 

[EclipseFour20]

Ahh the Raw Milk debate...not to hijack this thread, but don't think of Raw Milk in terms of NPK, but rather think of it as as an oil/water emulsion that is about 87% water, 4% fat & 9% of goodness...proteins, sugars, minerals, acids, vitamins, and enzymes for the benefit of the microherd--not really for the soil, directly speaking. The 9% goodness is what I want--and at my dosage rate of 7.5 ml of Raw Milk per plant--if I water 32oz per plant, that works out 4 plants per gallon or 30 ml of Raw Milk per gallon--9% of 30 ml is under 3 ml of goodness, which ain't much. So who cares about the NPK...lol.

Here are 2 older posts from this thread that kinda sums it up--https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=192828

So I thought I might stir it up a bit...these guys got 26% increase from adding milk to their soil...

Milk works as fertilizer, says preliminary study

"Essentially 10 different applications were replicated four ways," he explains. "In the test, the skim milk was taken out of the tank, it was mixed and everything was put on the land within an hour. It was very alive material."

The milk and milk mixtures were applied to the diverse grass and legume fields as a foliar application in May with a small pressurized tank.

"Looking down, we could see the drips of milk, so there was a fairly good saturation," Gompert remembers.

The researchers hypothesized that Lactobacillus from the milk would combine with fungi from the fish emulsions to feed active soil bacteria, thus creating a fertilizer source for the irrigated, well-established pasture.

Forty-five days after the application, the fields were harvested and yields were measured. The plots without milk or oil provided 4,454 pounds of dry matter. Fields drenched with 2 gallons of milk yielded 5,578 pounds. The plots with milk plus oil had slightly higher yields, but results were sporadic.

"The highest advantage we saw was at 2 gallons per acre," Gompert emphasizes. "An extra 1,124 pounds [per acre] from one application is quite significant. It's more than we get from adding nitrogen or phosphorous from the local coop."

The team was most surprised that 2 gallons of milk ignited a greater reaction than higher application levels.

"It didn't make any difference if we gave 2 or 32 gallons of treatment," he adds. "Two gallons of milk increased yield by 26 percent; Wetzel cod liver oil increased yield by 20 percent; together, they increased yield by 31 percent. That's on one harvest; we don't even know about the long-term benefits."

The researchers then used a penetrometer to see if there were any differences in soil compaction.

"We did three tests at different levels at each of the plots to see the relative softness of the land 45 days after the application," he says. "Essentially, we did 12 samplings and averaged the readings for pounds of pressure at 6, 12, 18 and 24 inches."

The fields applied with only oil were 9 percent more porous than the plots with no application. Meanwhile, the porosity of plots fertilized with milk was 18 percent softer than the control. The milk plus oil application had too much variation for direct conclusions.

The increased porosity is closely correlated with higher yields and could have long-term affects on plant health, Gompert indicates.

"If we have more porosity, we are increasing water-holding capacity and air," he says. "Those are the two requirements to grow roots, carbon and microbes."

Because the study was conducted by credible experts and showed duplication, Gompert has experienced considerable excitement from dairy and crop producers on all levels.

"I think this will pass the scrutiny of research as far as a study that can be duplicated," he says. "I've gotten a ton of testimonies of farms doing the same thing. It really is exciting."


And these little tidbits.....

Applied in a ratio of 3 gallons of fertilizer with 17 gallons of water per acre of land, this product will help re-populate your depleted soil with a myriad of beneficial bacteria, while also providing the necessary nutrients to feed those bacteria as they make a new home in your earth. It is recommended that this ratio be applied 2-4 times per growing season the first year, as you gradually re-build your soil, then continue to evaluate the results to determine whether additional applications are still needed.

.....and.....

I received a call from a bio-chemist who works in the filed of biotic fertilizers. He read the article on raw milk as fertilizer that circled the globe and called to offer his help in describing what we have in the raw milk as fertilizers.

Below are some bullet points to the discussion

1. Soil will have between 3-4,000# of bacteria per acre (this can vary depending on sprays, soil type, temps etc...)

2. Bacteria are 90% protein

3. One can calculate/estimate the amount of nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous by knowing the bacteria counts. Typically speaking bacteria counts will result in 10-14% nitrogen, 1% potassium and 3% phosphorous.

4. The bacteria that are most influential in growth live in in the top 6" of the oil.

5. Many thousands of different bacteria live in the soil

6. Bacteria need a balanced nutrition for good growth. Raw Milk is the perfect food.

7. Some of the bacteria will double the counts/weight every 15 minutes with the proper nutrition and temps (55 degrees F or better)

8. it does not take much for the bacteria to naturally put out 140 lb's of nitrogen per acre..and other nutrients.


Links I discovered:

The Content of Microelements and Trace Elements in Raw Milk from Cows in the Silesian Region

Farmer says spraying raw milk on field improves grass ...and observation on raw milks effect on fungus/Tall Fescue

Update on Raw Milk as fertilizer

Milk Your Land for All It’s Worth!


26% increase...hmmm.

Cheers!

I am making this "exception" to my rule of "not posting on ICMag for awhile"--excerpt of a blog posted by the makers of "TerraPro", a humus product that includes Raw Milk.

Tuesday, January 7, 2014

The Right Stuff for Growing WORLD RECORD Pumpkins!

Humus that contains supramolecular humic molecules (generically called Humic Acids) and plants that are mycorrhizal are the key to successful agriculture. So implementing the use of humics that are guaranteed to be supramolecular and inoculating the crop with the mycorrhizal species Glomus intraradices will play a significant role in producing the maximum yield of any short season crop including the production of World Record Pumpkins.

Trace Minerals: Kelp is for trace minerals and since we use kelp in everything we produce at Soil Secrets, using our protocol always results in plenty of trace minerals. Don't use more if you are using TerraPro, Earth Nectar, Earth Ambrosia or Protein Crumblies at minimum label rates. Since Kelp and Raw Whole Organic Milk are major ingredients in formulating our TerraPro's humic characteristics and kelp is also used in the formulation of the other listed products, our protocol provides a healthy dose of trace minerals. For example, in acid soils Calcium is a limiting factor and all plant and animal life need Calcium. Well there's no better source or better molecular configuration for Calcium than what's found in Raw Whole Organic Milk, and the molecular configuration of the humic molecules of TerraPro are made by using milk.

What makes a plant produce biomass is the combination of energy from the sun, nitrogen from the protein coming from the soil microbiology (what we call the Soil Food Web), carbon from the atmosphere and the major base cations occupying the Cation Exchange Capacity of the soil. Hopefully your soil is dominated by the base cation Calcium, which is often the case in a high pH soil (alkaline). Cation Exchange Capacity is abbreviated CEC and if its low, often the case with sandy soil, then fortifying the site with humic molecules that have an extremely high CEC will help you hold onto those base cations you have purchased and applied to the site. Adding our supramolecular humic molecules of TerraPro will fortify additional CEC potential, helping to retain the base cation minerals that are being added to the site, for example, in the form of slow release fertilizers like Compost.

Source: http://www.soilsecretsblog.com/2014/01/the-right-stuff-for-growing-world.html

Sometimes it is good to be ahead of the curve, cheers!

And a tidbit from the attached Whey and Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus study--

"...Whey may be defined broadly as the serum or watery part of milk
remaining after the separation of the curd that results
from the coagulation of milk by acid or proteolytic
enzymes (rennet) (Zadow, 1994). The constituents of
whey which are important for manuring and microbiologically
growth are N, P, K, S, Ca, Na, Mg, lactose
and proteins (Morris, 1985). It used for manuring purposes
not only to encourage plant growth but may also
increase microorganism population in the soil (Reddy et
al., 1987; Özrenk et al., 2003)....

...It is known that whey applied on the soil with the aim of
fertilization improves soil structure, and increases water
holding capacity of the soil and porosity in addition to its
effect of increasing productivity (Watson, 1978; Sienkiewicz
and Riedel, 1990). Due to its characteristics, whey is
effective not only in terms of plant nutrition but as nutrient
of microorganisms existing in soil micro flora. Morris
(1985) argued that protein nitrogen existing in whey is
converted into inorganic nitrogen which can be used by
the plant. It is stated that whey is also significant in terms
of microbial nutrition with rich nutrition materials existing
in whey and some carbon compounds especially lactose
are used as an energy source for microorganisms
(Morrissey, 1985; Iwabuchi and Yamauchi, 1987).
Moreover, it was observed in some studies that whey
addition to soil promotes bacteria and fungus population
(Sonnleitner et al., 2003a, 2003b)."

Now you know. Which came first, Raw Milk or Whey?

 

[Pangea]

So Ive stated in all my posts that NPK is out the window when dealing with a living soil, so why bring up the 3% N for alfalfa meal or PAN? How is using raw milk better or more efficient than alfalfa(16-30% goodness)?

 

[EclipseFour20]

So Ive stated in all my posts that NPK is out the window when dealing with a living soil, so why bring up the 3% N for alfalfa meal or PAN? How is using raw milk better or more efficient than alfalfa(16-30% goodness)?

Plant Available Nitrogen (PAN) is important--cuz plants need it. So bringing up PAN is necessary--given the choice of two inputs, one provides 50% PAN and the other -5% (negative 5) which is better?

I doubt anyone has sufficient information to suggest that one amendment is more efficient than other...cuz you can not compare apples with bananas, or Alfalfa with Raw Milk.

If NPK is not important to you then why do you claim that alfalfa produces more Nitrogen than a synthetic--something that very very few people use? But when comparing various inputs, I submit knowledge of NPK is most important...who want high levels of N during flowering? I bring up NPK cuz it is a common denominator to help compare apples and bananas (ie, blood meal vs bone meal).

Now the goodness argument, let me say this real simple, after cooking alfalfa 10-15 days at 150 degrees (same temp which I slow cook meat in my smoker) I gotta ask, what goodness is left? Any science to quantify levels of goodness you think that may remain? As a rule, heat degrades proteins, acids, vitamins, and enzymes--heat is not an enhancer...but here we go again, I speak "mineralization" and you speak "decomposition".

I got science behind my theories...even produced a few--now it is your turn. What science do you have to support your claim of the benefits of cooking alfalfa 10-15 days at 150 degrees? BTW, anecdotal examples are good, but don't prove much.