Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[NorCalFor20]

you are starting to sound like some local hydro shop owner mad because his HPS bulbs aren't selling anymore. I don't want to turn this thread into a flame war I'll just direct you to murphys grow for your "huge colas" ...

also if you watch my grow here in the next few months I'll show you some "huge colas" too. If you want buds that are as long as a car, grow outdoors- indoors under a 400w, obviously we aren't trying to supply downtown LA and NYC with weed for 3 years- we just are growing some plants to smoke.indoors we grow for potency, there is more color spectrum in a CMH than an HPS, I can pull up 10 pages of threads with sup par hps grows.

 

[simba]

OS, i do respect others but you have been asking questions that are intended not for an answer rather trying upset someone into snaping on you..
if you have tried and dont like say your opinion once.. with pictures why..
also yes strain plays a role in it but you forget FULL SPD Is better than HPS>> hands down FACT.. thats why the sun is full spd.. not jsut yellow red.. god or mother nature made it that way for a reason
you say cmh has to be closer no its that it can be closer so we go closer wich makes up for any loss of pen with hps you HAVE to have 1-2feet higher and that looses more energy than we know what to do with..
you talk about strains with crazy stretfchin Dam they willl love the cmh then it will keep it in check..
the reason there are strains that go crazy streach indoors is cause there missing the blue..
Os, in short pictures can be found in this thread an other forums..
.. Many people especially commercial growers have switched..
i have to ask you not to post any more here.. im not a mod. but your wasting everyones time with nonsense.. (like i said before i could promote Philips son t plus at 80-110 for ones i bought for $10.00 each (made in Germany) But refuse to for horti use..cmh from philips to any one is like 2.75 times that abouts.. .so in short its obv not cause we make more on cmh its cause its better..
if cmh is so whack why is eye hortilux blue with crappy red selling for twice the price..

 

[duddits]

I had questioned earlier if my buds were as dense with CMH and I look back now at my past two grows and I f*ed them up with my feed and amount of feedings. I definitively can say until I become a better grower (this next one starting up for sure!) I can't begin to evaluate light interaction.
I can say that the heat is huge with hps 600 compared to 400 CMH. I use a vortex 6" to pull through a carbon filter and sealed Super Sun 2. With a fan controller, I have it set to 50%. When I swapped in the 600 for a week this past grow the temps steadied out 10 degrees F higher. That was with everything else being equal, ambient temps, oscillating fan, etc.** I can in fact have the light much closer with no fear of cooking them when under CMH. I felt I was getting better penetration with the closer CMH than when the 600 hps was backed off properly to prevent burn on the tops.

I want to do a scrog this time around. I think that would setup CMH for it's best potential. My problem there is the clones were just pruned down to 12" as they await their turn in the flower hut and having never done a scrog before I won't relax until I somehow get them under the screen without snapping them up. The stalks aren't too woody so I think I can pull it off. Cramped quarters around the hut and getting 16 12" plants under a plastic screen in a 36"x36" flood tray in a hydrohut mini has me playing it over and over in my mind how I will do it and how it will go! LOL

Also, what is up with the comment that murphy's buds will just look like peas once they dry?!!? Those buds looked completely great. I've seen other pics pf Grape Krush and those are the meatiest buds I've seen yet, no lie.

**EDIT Actually, the ambient room temp was higher with the CMH because the 400 HPS ballast outside the hut is much much hotter running than my Galaxy 600 HPS digi ballast.

 

[OsWiZzLe]

First off Simba..I'm not some angry Hydro shop..and I'll post whatever the hell I want bro..your not a mod...so relax...sorry if I'm telling u that your overhyped bulbs are nothing special...u throw out all these extra facts about the sun and spectrums etc...if these lights are soooooooo next level ....nothing about it in Hightimes...nothing in Maxium Yield....not even a damn article stating one thing about it..that being said..those arent the only sources of information to make em credible but it'd help...u keep ripping on the price of HPS bulbs...dude if ur growing bomb herb spending an extra few bucks for a better product isnt even a question...Thats fine theres one or 2 pics on here of some good CMH grows....those pics aint shit compared to the HPS ones in the same wattage....a good friend of mine...APE who's got more growing skills then most of yall put togethor..has even told me..not to waste my time flowering with these bulbs..I'll take my homies word for it who's 10x more credible...its all good though SImba..keep Pushing those Bulbs man....I'm not a hater when it comes to breaking bread...just hate when people spit bullshit..i guess all the people at the Cannabis College Amsterdam are idiots for using HPS bulbs and not switching to CMH huh.....

 

[simba]

OS.. i didnt say that someone else said the hydro shop bit.. so relax.. and read who said what and respond accordingly please.. i dont need misplaced anger in my life..got enough crap LOL..

why its not in max yield or high times they only put whats advertised in there..... Fact..(half the crap in there i Know to be garbage, IE liquid light.. oh this is funny and goes to us. they have a demo of it.. 1kw vs 600watt.. i bet money the 1kw was a horti bulb and the 600 was a basic lu600 (thers product was used on 600 side..I have yet to find anyone who Has tried it to Really Show me results (most have Problems with it) DM even said if ur room is setup proper you wont see any increse if u use it.. Phhh)
and we stated theres no real money in cmh so theres no incentive for the stores or dist to push it.. why push what doesnt make Mad $$ when you can push $10 hps bulbs for $80-150USD stores pay half what is retail.. so thats why thers no pushing from the Greedy fools out there..
but a cmh no where near that if my life depended on it..
cmh has a higher mfr cost and profit margin to mfrs because they are still promoting the Profiters (HPS/MH/CFL) yes even cfl is out vs cmh 10-20watt..
I have a 20 watt cmh in where i usto have 350W incandescent and that one bulb is brighter even in my garage a 25 watt cmh is brighter than a 34Watt CFL

your not telling me there nothing special. you havent pointed out hard evidence to the contrary..
uh cmh that we use isnt sold by philips euro could that be why they havent tried them yet.. ?

not starting any thing nor do i wish but back up your statements.. full sun has allways been known to be better than hps so why is cmh with the same full spd isnt..
i thought you said you had 4 but u now say you where told to not bother..
from your earlier statements i assumed u used cmh but your posts recent say you havent and only heard not to by someone else who has not tried them and given them a chance (relearn no long veg etc..and SILICA) so wich is it.. sorry man but your not backing your statements..

no offence and i mean no offence at all to any grower of any kind.
but all thes pot hobby/comercial growers( that you reference, and the pot growers books etc..)
supposedly know more than actual botanists thats funny..
well some pot grower (higher ups) are grandfathered in and are actual phd botanists
but come on thats why its called weed its super easy crop to grow. Requires lil care, nutes, incecticided compared to many other crops that up and die on ya..in matter of hours
i have some corn on the cob indoors and only bought 3 feet tall with cobbs.. (cmh keeps them in check and had a tomato plant alive and producing for 3 years like a bonsi tree (after a severe GH nute fckup at infancy (gh's fault)
yes i grow everything.. i have a passion for it.. one medical side and other is Pure passion..

most people in horti and lighting dont understand cmh untill they see and use it.
me included with new stuff why old works fine or we dont understand efficiency isnt only in electricity but whats produced etc..
this is a bit not hard numbers but same point..
its like a old mussel car at what 6,000Lbs with 800HP vs a 2,000lb 94 talon twin turbo ed 600HP whos gonna win Duh the talon.. why no wasted weight (IE half hps energy in unusable range) same as that extra weight

and like i keep saying especially if you come from HPS growing it is a small learning curve (shortening veg etc) to get better yield.. you no longer need some mas ave bush to get good yield.. with hps you need more leaf to get same result from cmh.. same as solar panel for one range or mulit spectrum absorptions..
you have to take what you thought you knew of many things and throw it out the window..id say a outdoor grower could go cmh with very lil change to his/her regimen

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

When the first CMH threads appeared, I took a look at the light spectum stats, which didn't impress me at first glimpse. I criticized the CMH on that subject, which I kind of regret now, since a lot of growers seem to do well with these bulbs.

Karma to all you CMH growers, for trying out new ways of growing.


In reference to what OsWiZzLE said, I also find it curious that the bulb industry isn't trying to cash in on these bulbs as horticultural lights, if they're that well suited for it. I see companies like Philips praise CMH:s as streetlights, but I can't find a single CMH bulb marketed as a growlight.
Don't they read the pot forums?

Also, I repeatedly hear that they don't work well in a horisontal position, and Philips straight out say they should be mounted vertically, base up.

Any comments on that (if that question has been asked before in this +1400 posts thread, I excuse myself for being too lazy to read it all)?

 

[simba]

RC,,
Thanks for chiming in..
on honestly philips doesnt want to push cmh yet.. they have it only to have it.. it would literly require retooling of every mh and hps factory.. and shut down all cfl factories. as there is a 5 watt cmh avail suposedly at next light fair.. so thats it for all lights anywhere in house comercial etc.
they curently cost twice as much to MFR.. for philips or any other mfr..
so the cost is up.. so companies unless they look at total life relamping included.. they wont spend the uprfront on it. (now that there more energy consious they will).. you can use about half watt cmh what u would in commercial setting for HPS or MH.. especialy MH cause there lumen maint blows chunks..)

if they push in the horti market again all mh and hps are done.. thats allot of profit now that would be lost.. why shoot there foot off... AY?

Theres no profit in cmh for dist (higher mfr cost so higher cost to dist = less profit from to store sale) (for the store yes cause your going to pay $65 now. Later prob more (hoepfully not though as mfr cost will come down and hope fully mfr has good value and charges fair market price not what market can bear like done now..
and thats good the store needs to pay for brick and window front etc.. dist dont.. they move qty to make up for it.. thats the way it should work..


as far as burning position back in 2004-2005 ya there was only vertical burn but in 2005 they brought the cdm250s50/hor and cdm400s51/hor to life for $1 more..
and philips cmh not only has the spd life etc we want they have cmh in HPS ballastable, and OPEN FIXTURE RATED>> and HPS BULB SHAPE>> alll other CMHs are MHP bulb format Bouble bulbs i call them.. (Waste of reflector room more like it)

 

[OsWiZzLe]

I own 4 of em ....I was going to go round 2 with them again...and was told by APE to not even waste my time if I'm trying to Pull weight...Simba..you know your shit..thats for sure....but dude..come on man...u were promoting the benefits of CMH for the UV....I put up that information from Jorge Cerventas......and u started off with ..i follow university studies and what not...just tell me Simba...were u not pimping the UV thing like crazy on the CMH? It's hard to take everything u say without having doubt...the fact u have a conflict of interest bro...i'm done with this topic..i've said what i had to say....I bought the CMH I also bought bulbs that spit out UV like crazy...and lemme tell u ...H.Y.P.E

I'm looking forward to seeing some big ass yields in the upcoming months for u guys....please put all this to rest..and show me the Green

 

[simba]

i will put to rest.. you asked few Qs..
i did and still do promote use of UV for increasing Trich reason production (not the number of trichs but the Filling of them)
yes i follow Actuall Universities accredited by there peers and publishis peer review studies etc.... and burn the occasional green-stogi with few phd botanists
cmh does dump uv some bulbs are protected and reduce that by some but it still puts out more than HPS and you dont need to overdo it. but a plant was outside for xxx thousand years and you bring indoors under yellow/red light no way in hell is it going to perform the same..
take a athilite and give him a 1/4 of what he normaly got and expect same resulsts....

honestly try round 2.. you prob didnt get it on the first runn.. i didnt.. you need to relearn few things.. and maybe even change the layout a bit.. closer whatever something.. you cant try something once and say ohwell i tried it and sucked.. no first time (even first few times) its yourfault.. you didnt perform the best your first time in the sack did you.. no.. sorry that was a bad joke but im sure u get my point..


i truely feel your trying to find a flaw in what i say.. to hold that as oh dont listen to him.. thats not cool one bit.. find the flaw for the greater good not to use as a hanging implement..


BACK to the party now.. ur right we should so move on..

but ya CMH can be burned in any position now.. open fixture rated..

 

[FreezerBoy]

I hope none of guys grow any strains with some hectic stretching.....because then you'll realize how whack the CMH is....those lights have to be like a a foot or closer at all times to use them properly...i cant believe how many people are jumping on this bandwagon....somebody please post up a picture of huge colas from CMH...let me see something that puts the HPS to shame.....

T*Haze x Skunk #1. 7-8 feet in the wild, 22 inches under CMH with ScROG. Buds are fat enough to fall over.

 

[duddits]

T*Haze x Skunk #1. 7-8 feet in the wild, 22 inches under CMH with ScROG. Buds are fat enough to fall over.

Nice! That's the same screening I bought for my upcoming scrog!

 

[MPL]

Take a look at this post.

Those are some fat, dense, dankity dank buds if there ever were any. That is still relatively early in flowering too (day 36).

 

[greenisgold]

I'm about done with my frist CMH grow. Some things did not go right at all. I had to pull ops for 2 day which affected the grow so I can't really comment 100 percent. I will say this, I have been growing for a while now and this was the first time I ventured from HPS in flower. I always used mh for veg and in flowering for the first 2 weeks or when buds appeared, then switched to hps. I stated this in another post that I kept waiting for the buds to kick into over drive like most plants do in flower. There is always a time when they just pack the weight on, and this time it did not happen. Is it the bulbs, not really sure to be honest. BUT the grow before I did the same thing except I used a 400 eye blue which is pretty damn close to a cmh spectrum wise and the same thing-not very fat buds. Now this is not to say that I will not have a decent harvest, but I wonder what it would have been like if I stuck to the tried and true method. So I wonder, have plants adapted to the HPS spectrum? In other words, with all the breeding that has been going on for years, and the use of HPS, have alot of strains gotten use to the HPS light in flower? Just a guess. So I'm starting another grow and I will use chm/eye blue during veg, but I'm switching back to hps flower to see the outcome. Growing the same strain as well. Maybe I need more time dialing it in with these bulbs, but time is not what I have.
I will say this, there is an incredible amount of resin on the strains I'm growing, more it seems then any other grow I have done. Plus the resin production started very early.
May all your grows be good ones.
Peace out all.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

So I wonder, have plants adapted to the HPS spectrum? In other words, with all the breeding that has been going on for years, and the use of HPS, have alot of strains gotten use to the HPS light in flower? Just a guess.

It's a good guess greenisgold, and a grow factor rarely talked about in the forums.

As soon as selective breeding comes into the picture, you override the genetic's natural evolution.

When a breeder or a grower selects a keeper, he often goes for the best performer in terms of growth vigour, yield, health, etc.

The best performer in that sense will be the plant that outperforms the others in a certain environment.

Let me give you an example from my ongoing grow (Blockheads from seed). I veg my seedlings under neons. A week after germination, I changed some neons, from one mark to another. Almost immediately, a fast growing seedling started to stall, and the others overtook it. I start my seedlings with organic nutes, and later I swich to mineral based nutes. As I switched from organics to non-organics, the fastest growing seedling was overtaken by another that simply exploded in growth, and got way bigger than the others. Then I switched from neons to HPS, and once again it favored another plant that now outperforms the others.

Years ago, I had a keeper that was fantastic when grown in soil, but simply refused to grow in hydroponics. So even though I'm mainly a hydro grower, I had to switch to soil for that plant.

Factors such as temps, nutrients and medium will often decide for you what genetics you will hold on to.

That way, genetics get 'adapted' to the specific grow environment that the breeder or grower creates for it.

A breeder growing outdoors with organics will select for that type of environment, while an indoor breeder growing un hydro under HPS lights will adapt the genetics to that environment.
Which is one of the reasons why many breeders classify their strains as outdoor/indoor/greenhouse strains.

We're now working with some strains that have evolved in indoor environments for generations, and that will possibly need generations in order to 're-adapt' to an outdoor environment.

Whether that's the reason why your strain performed better under HPS than CMH I cannot say, and in general I believe that most plants appreciate a fuller light spectrum over a more selected one (although perhaps not for yield), but it's a possibility.

I checked for those 400w Philips CMH bulbs at Philips homepage (the European one), but they're not listed in their catalogue.

So they seem to be avaible in the US, but not in Europe? Insane, if that's the case, since Philips is a Dutch company. Does anyone have a lead on a European retailer (once again I appologize if this has already been dealt with)?

 

[Azeotrope]

Helo all I have been gone for a while, but still watching.

First off I would like remind every one out there that there are many opinions about plant biology and how it relates to lighting. I will say that in my experience there needs to be no loss of yeild with the CMH.

Some things that I had to adjust to were the higher feed requirements under the CMH. The fact that when I switched to CMH (years ago, well before the take down of OG) I was running NL#5xHaze meant that I had a strain known to produce donkey dicks. I actually gained a little on my yield as a result of the reduction in heat and the addition of the blue end helped control and manage stretch. Now, I grew in coco, drain to waste and had it dialed.

Currently I have some "bonus beans" going from when Reeferman was in Canada still. The two girls that are flowering from those beans are totally different. One is very Indica and the other looks to have a good amount of sativa going on. The indica plant is making ROCK hard fat nuggs. Ths sativa is filling in nicely. However, I have been feeding them the same orgaincs and the Indica has been shorted on food and the sativa has been happy as a clam. The indica is demonstrating that it would be a huge yielder if I fed it enough and the sativa will yield very well at this feed level. It is not light dependant.

Under 2x400w CMH, 6 NL#5xHaze clones in straight coco, filled a 39" x 5' area and at 2.5' - 3' tall I got 1.5 to 2lbs pretty regularily. Now, how many times have folks told you 2lb per 1000w light is the where a dialed grow should be? I have friends that have lived by that for years. One of them was flat out amazed at the taste and potency of my herb. I attribute a lot of that to the CMH spectrum. Why would it not be the best choice to duplicate or at least get close to what the sun provides?

OsWizZle - There was an article in Maximum Yield a few years back in regards to the CMH and spectral effects on plant biology. There have also been a couple in there that related to adding CFLs to large HPS operations to improve plant quality and yield. I just trimmed a couple of JohnnyBlaze colas last night that were the size of my arm (and I look like the average NFL linebacker!).

Peace

 

[FreezerBoy]

Az is back. Cool O' mundo!

 

[Azeotrope]

Thanks FreezerBoy. You are tugging at my heart with the Thunk!!!!! I have a tough enough time with the JohnnyBlaze due to the fact that it really shows the Nev Haze. The good thing is that it shows the Nev Haze in the super citrus/lemon smell taste and massive "good vibes" high. Not stone, HIGH!!

Glad to see ya'll have kept it going.

 

[MPL]

Good to see you back!

Glad to see ya'll have kept it going.

 

[greenisgold]

I doubt this, being alot of elite cuts that get passed around are sometimes grown outside and most (not all!) perform better, producing the best examples of what that/the perticular cut is capable of showing, i guess theres no need for an explanation of the SUN & its spectrum...Not to mention the mother plants are usually not kept under hps's, right ?

For instance just recently ive seen holders of UK Cheese & ATW (trainwreck from Arcata), both 20yr old plus cuts, that both produce a better/stronger/more potent product from being outdoor under the big halide in da sky.


Peace V

Remember, it was just a guess. But taking an indoor strain which most likely originated outdoors and then placing it back outdoors is really not a great comparison, but a good one. God only knows what people are getting these days when it comes to strains with all the ripping off going on, inbreeding per se, crossing and so on and so forth. Everything for the most part on this planet must adapt to it's environment, and maybe, just maybe the beans that I just grew out don't really like mh in flower?? Or maybe I just f-up the grow.
I would love to do a side by side, but I no longer have the space.
Peace out all

 

[greenisgold]

It's a good guess greenisgold, and a grow factor rarely talked about in the forums.

As soon as selective breeding comes into the picture, you override the genetic's natural evolution.

When a breeder or a grower selects a keeper, he often goes for the best performer in terms of growth vigour, yield, health, etc.

The best performer in that sense will be the plant that outperforms the others in a certain environment.

Let me give you an example from my ongoing grow (Blockheads from seed). I veg my seedlings under neons. A week after germination, I changed some neons, from one mark to another. Almost immediately, a fast growing seedling started to stall, and the others overtook it. I start my seedlings with organic nutes, and later I swich to mineral based nutes. As I switched from organics to non-organics, the fastest growing seedling was overtaken by another that simply exploded in growth, and got way bigger than the others. Then I switched from neons to HPS, and once again it favored another plant that now outperforms the others.

Years ago, I had a keeper that was fantastic when grown in soil, but simply refused to grow in hydroponics. So even though I'm mainly a hydro grower, I had to switch to soil for that plant.

Factors such as temps, nutrients and medium will often decide for you what genetics you will hold on to.

That way, genetics get 'adapted' to the specific grow environment that the breeder or grower creates for it.

A breeder growing outdoors with organics will select for that type of environment, while an indoor breeder growing un hydro under HPS lights will adapt the genetics to that environment.
Which is one of the reasons why many breeders classify their strains as outdoor/indoor/greenhouse strains.

We're now working with some strains that have evolved in indoor environments for generations, and that will possibly need generations in order to 're-adapt' to an outdoor environment.

Whether that's the reason why your strain performed better under HPS than CMH I cannot say, and in general I believe that most plants appreciate a fuller light spectrum over a more selected one (although perhaps not for yield), but it's a possibility.

I checked for those 400w Philips CMH bulbs at Philips homepage (the European one), but they're not listed in their catalogue.

So they seem to be avaible in the US, but not in Europe? Insane, if that's the case, since Philips is a Dutch company. Does anyone have a lead on a European retailer (once again I appologize if this has already been dealt with)?

Great post and are you the RC from the old og days?
Here's a couple pics of a BH grow I did years ago. Th eone with me holding the buds was from only 6 weeks-I had to clip them because of mildew-caught it in time. I actually bought these seeds from Steve (no I do not know him) via a pm. Some of the craziest smoke ever. I have had BH since, but it's not the same.