Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Jhhnn]

Hey guys,
I have skimmed through QUITE a few pages and can't seem to find a definitive "This is the one here"
I'm old... I ain't got time to read this whole thread.
Help an old fart out?
I am wanting to switch from a 400W MH/HPS setup in my fridge to the CMH.
I found what looks to be a good deal for light bulb, socket, ballast and reflector here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-Watt-Ceramic-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light#
Let me know what you all think about this for my small setup?

Thanks....

I think that's this lamp-

http://genet.gelighting.com/LightProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=COMMERCIALSPECPAGE&PRODUCTCODE=93295

Which is a retrofit lamp for magnetic 400w HPS ballasts. Dunno that it's compatible w/ high frequency electronic ballasts. It's not open fixture rated. It's also unsurprising that it's offered in an open fixture, the industry being what it is.

What ballast are you currently using? Electronic or magnetic? Switchable? HPS? MH?

You may be able to buy just a lamp, depending.

 

[satyr]

Hey guys,
I have skimmed through QUITE a few pages and can't seem to find a definitive "This is the one here"
I'm old... I ain't got time to read this whole thread.
Help an old fart out?
I am wanting to switch from a 400W MH/HPS setup in my fridge to the CMH.
I found what looks to be a good deal for light bulb, socket, ballast and reflector here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-Watt-Ceramic-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light#
Let me know what you all think about this for my small setup?

Thanks....

To give you some good advice. Don't jump on the retrofits CMH. Go for a HF digital 315w GREENPOWER CDM (CMH).

It may be higher initial cost, but difference is significant. I have grown with some of those retrofit magnetic ballasts and they simply don't compare to the new HighFrequency Digital ballast tech.

If you can get it, go for the Philips 315w CDM Greenpower.

For flowering, it will blast all the other 315w CMH/CDM and 400w CMH, MH and HPS. Period.

In addition it will save you lots of kW's as the overhead for the ballasts is almost nothing compared to the old Magnetics. You will save more than 100watts total, and get the same or more yield, with better quality.

I am in week 6 with some Chemdawgs under 2 630w Dimlux CDM Nanotubes and the results seem astonishing. Even in nanotubes.

I will put up a grow report, with a thorough review of the most hi-tech equipment I have come around yet.

This is definitely the marketleader when it comes to quality and functionality. It feels like when I got the first Iphone, coming from an old Nokia. I have control and verification at my fingertips.

I think, there are being sold so much bullshit equipment these days, with very few pictures of the end product. We always see vegging and early flower from the magic of LED, never the final harvest pics.

I have many friends that have burned their fingers on products promising way more than they can deliver.

I think that the Philips 315w Greenpower is THE game changer in smaller scale, high quality growing.

I have grown the same Chemdog D+4 clones for many years. I know them, I know what to expect from different types of lightning. A combo of HPS/MH is what I used to get the best results from.

But even with major disruptions this time, I think, I will get same or more yield than I use to get. And I have never gotten less than 1gr/watt with the Dawgs.

So far, I am, what looks like way closer to harvest than usual. I have very fat Bud and the penetration seems excellent.

I will back up my big words shortly, with more documentation.

 

[Jhhnn]

To give you some good advice. Don't jump on the retrofits CMH. Go for a HF digital 315w GREENPOWER CDM (CMH).

It may be higher initial cost, but difference is significant. I have grown with some of those retrofit magnetic ballasts and they simply don't compare to the new HighFrequency Digital ballast tech.

If you can get it, go for the Philips 315w CDM Greenpower.

For flowering, it will blast all the other 315w CMH/CDM and 400w CMH, MH and HPS. Period.

In addition it will save you lots of kW's as the overhead for the ballasts is almost nothing compared to the old Magnetics. You will save more than 100watts total, and get the same or more yield, with better quality.

I am in week 6 with some Chemdawgs under 2 630w Dimlux CDM Nanotubes and the results seem astonishing. Even in nanotubes.

I will put up a grow report, with a thorough review of the most hi-tech equipment I have come around yet.

This is definitely the marketleader when it comes to quality and functionality. It feels like when I got the first Iphone, coming from an old Nokia. I have control and verification at my fingertips.

I think, there are being sold so much bullshit equipment these days, with very few pictures of the end product. We always see vegging and early flower from the magic of LED, never the final harvest pics.

I have many friends that have burned their fingers on products promising way more than they can deliver.

I think that the Philips 315w Greenpower is THE game changer in smaller scale, high quality growing.

I have grown the same Chemdog D+4 clones for many years. I know them, I know what to expect from different types of lightning. A combo of HPS/MH is what I used to get the best results from.

But even with major disruptions this time, I think, I will get same or more yield than I use to get. And I have never gotten less than 1gr/watt with the Dawgs.

So far, I am, what looks like way closer to harvest than usual. I have very fat Bud and the penetration seems excellent.

I will back up my big words shortly, with more documentation.

210 & 315 CDM lamps operate on low frequency ballasts at 105-115 Hz. Specs in the blue area near the bottom of this page-

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmmw.htm

 

[satyr]

I am not talking those old lamps. Thats the Agro CDM.

The new ones, looks very different than the ones you show on the link. The Elite and Agro are not the same as the Greenpower. The Elite looks like the Greenpower, but Philips claims to have changed the output in the red spectrum.

I am sure the reason could be that Philips got into some PR problems home in Holland selling loads of 600-1000watt HPS Greenpower that is used to produce cannabis. TV and media got them in bad standing. Philips is too big to get associated with cannabis homegrowers.

I think they want the market back with smaller watt, more all-purpose lamps.

Greenpower is Philips super brand. They use it with care. Like the 600w and 1000w DE that they are not making anymore.

I am talking about the brand new Philips 315w GREENPOWER.....This one has much enhanced red spectrum and higher PPF compared to the other 315w 930. 1.9 almost the same as the 1000w DE.

I think the Dimlux are operating on Ultra High frequency something like 140-190 kHz

If you look at the non UHF ballasts driven one in a camera, you see flicker and a black line moving down the pic. You dont see anything with an UHF ballast and lamp.

These Greenpower, does not make so much leave and more bud than the ones with normal red level. They are not widely available in the EU and cost from 120€ and up. But they are worth it IMO.

They can be boosted to 120% and deliver 760w pr fixture. But with nanotube it best to stay under 105%.

 

[rives]

Unless there have been some very recent releases in equipment by Philips, I think that you are getting some things tangled up. The 315w CDM electronic ballasts are low-frequency, and the lamps in Jhhnn's link are the ED28/37 lamps that have mogul bases. They are not Agro designated. The 315w PGZ18-base T12 Agro lamps are the same as the Greenpower 315w, just with a new name.

 

[satyr]

I have it from good source. I presented him with the same argument, but he was adamant, that they, are not having the same chemical composition. Even if they are called 930 its not the same.

I am sure the Philips digital ballasts are UHF, but I may be wrong. I will check on it


Just checked it Rives, and I am right....its UHF not anything but.

 

[rives]

The 315w T12 Agro - http://download.p4c.philips.com/l4bt/3/350508/mastercolor_cdm-t_elite_med_watt_350508_ffs_aen.pdf

The 315w Greenpower - http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/connect/tools_literature/downloads/p-6414.pdf

They have the same product number - #415216 vs 41521-6.

 

[satyr]

That may be hype, but, I would not think it impossible, that they added a bit more or less chemical, in the gas composition when they made the rebrand.

If the Elite was good, why not give it a bit more of the right stuff.

Anyway, Elite, rebranded or not, these lamps do make splendid cannabis, regardless.

 

[rives]

The Philips Advance #IZTMH 210315 R is an eVision ballast.

From the Philips propaganda - "Low frequency electronic ballasts are recommended by lamp manufacturers to drive the latest generation of ceramic, low wattage metal halide lamps. These ceramic lamps have superior color rendition and can potentially maintain that color over the life of the lamps when operated with electronic ballasts. Since color is dependent on proper lamp wattage, the electronic ballast must be able to maintain lamp wattage precisely at its rated point throughout the rated average life of the lamp. Low frequency electronic HID ballasts such as the Philips Advance e-Vision family constantly measure and adjust the wattage, optimizing delivery of the ceramic lamps’ superior color properties."

http://www.lighting.philips.com/us_en/connect/hid/electronic.wpd

The full spec's are in Jhhnn's link at the bottom of the page in blue. That ballast drives the lamps at 105-115 hz.

And yes, they do an excellent job on cannabis.

 

[LargePrime]

Patience of a saint.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Hey guys,
I have skimmed through QUITE a few pages and can't seem to find a definitive "This is the one here"
I'm old... I ain't got time to read this whole thread.
Help an old fart out?
I am wanting to switch from a 400W MH/HPS setup in my fridge to the CMH.
I found what looks to be a good deal for light bulb, socket, ballast and reflector here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-Watt-Ceramic-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light#
Let me know what you all think about this for my small setup?

Thanks....

I'm not sure on your budget, or exact size, but to me, the easiest breakdown for best of breed, is simpy to suggest Greenbeams (maybe only one for your setup), and using ORCA film on walls, floor, ceiling.

I tried to attach the "Greenbeams Tech Guide" to this post so you can read about their product, if you're interested, but it's too big, so I uploaded it to our site (as I don't see it anywhere online):
https://csrg.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Greenbeams-Tech-Guide.pdf

I would suggest the Philips MasterColor (942) 315W CDM lamp.

 

[Beta Test Team]

rives is correct, satyr, Elite Agro is now Green Power (though there's also the '930'). And to add some info from Dr. Bugbee to this discussion about what I'll simply refer to as "AGRO" (Elite Agro, now called Greenpower) and "942" (MasterColor), as well as the "930" from Philips, see the screenshots below.

We are going to use all 942's (in 12 Greenbeams), because the R:FR ratio is lower than the AGRO, as is NIR, and there's also less 'yellow' range in the 942, with greater blue, as well as UV-B and UV-A. Though we plan to replace the 942's with AGRO's to carry out testing of the both models in very controlled conditions, to see what we see (figuratively, we'll use analytical tools, of course).

​

Continued into next post.

 

[Fishywater]

I appreciate all the input and chatter about the latest CMH/CMD.
I have googled the shit out of all these terms, model#s and names.
I can find a bulb here and another 315 bulb that looks different. but not the ballast, socket reflector etc.
I am convinced by the research I have done that this is the bulb I wanna use on my next run.
I just wish I would come across a site that had the whole kit... everything I will need to make the changeover.
I guess I could use my old reflector, but where Can a guy go to order the 315 green power, ballast and socket?
I gotta get this thing going to keep my wife in good meds.

Thanks again guys for a great thread !

 

[Beta Test Team]

 

[Beta Test Team]

I appreciate all the input and chatter about the latest CMH/CMD.
I have googled the shit out of all these terms, model#s and names.
I can find a bulb here and another 315 bulb that looks different. but not the ballast, socket reflector etc.
I am convinced by the research I have done that this is the bulb I wanna use on my next run.
I just wish I would come across a site that had the whole kit... everything I will need to make the changeover.
I guess I could use my old reflector, but where Can a guy go to order the 315 green power, ballast and socket?
I gotta get this thing going to keep my wife in good meds.

Thanks again guys for a great thread !

I already suggested that to you: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6721741&postcount=6771

Greenbeams will give you what you want, at about $420 for the whole luminaire: https://www.cycloptics.com/greenbeams

 

[LargePrime]

"Is supplemental green light necessary for plant growth and development?"
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__3801011.pdf

Can i make a tangential point.

Look at the photos of the plants in question. notice the health of the blue light exposed plants vs red light exposed plants.

While everyone notes that any given red photon is much more power efficient to make than a blue one, we can see that the health of the plant is far more positively effected by blue light, correct?

So while manufacturers can argue about their maximized PPF or YPF, it is really work like beta team is doing about actually growing under said light that actually shows the truth.

And from that we can make guesses and decisions about what is a better light.

Beta I have 2 questions.
1) Have you evaluated the cost of a sheet of glass between the light source and plants, and its effect on light efficiency and yield? If it is low enough could the higher output of the t9's beat the t12's?

2) Have you modeled an optomized horizontal reflector? Could the correct design beat a vertical parabolic? Given every vertical loses 5% on the whole reflected light, and the horizontak looses only 2%, and another 5% of the half reflected but 0% for the unreflected... the math should work?

 

[Beta Test Team]

Large, please allow me to respond to your two questions later today or tomorrow, I'm very short on time today.

To your point about spectrum effect on plant growth, there was a study ca. 1975 that used spectrum blocking film to irradiate Cannabis with only blue range, green range, and red range radiation, studying effect on THC, growth, etc.; while the study was not that great and the results aren't really useful, it's interesting. I posted about the study to ShaggyBalls in one of his threads, if you search you can probably find the post.

Also, you may like a thread I just created from some of our new graphs showing approximate spectral radiation use by Cannabis for various plant growth responses:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6718314

 

[satyr]

Well it says everywhere that its running UHF. The Dimlux gear that is.

Suitable for: 630W
Output: 320-760 Watt
Connection: 230V
Overdrive: 20%
Soft Start: Low inrush for use without Maxi Controller and Zero start (no inrush) for use with the Maxi Controller
Soft Dim: Yes
Dim Button: 7 dim levels and off mode. Can be switched on and off via the Maxi Controller as wel as stepless dimming
Ultra High Frequency: Yes
Diagnostic LEDs: Yes


By the way Beta, can't you show the spectrum on the CDM'S when they are in overdrive instead of dimmed ?

When I give it all 120% they really give of some heat, compared to when I run them at 100%.

If I used the 942 I would loose 50 umol pr lamp compared to the Greenpower. That 240 umol total on my 2 fixtures when boosted. Thats almost the same as adding a plasma to the grow.

If boosted 20% I would like to see how the spectre changes. Also would be nice to know the effect the Nanotube air-cooling has on the spetrum ?

 

[rives]

Unless BTT has access to the Dimlux gear, it's unlikely that he can post an overdriven graph - the Philips ballasts do not have the capability to overdrive the lamps. It will be interesting to see what kind of lamp longevity you see - supposedly the reason that Philips went with low frequency ballasts was that the lamps couldn't withstand the high frequency harmonics. I would think that overdriving would shorten the life expectancy even more.

 

[satyr]

Unless BTT has access to the Dimlux gear, it's unlikely that he can post an overdriven graph - the Philips ballasts do not have the capability to overdrive the lamps. It will be interesting to see what kind of lamp longevity you see - supposedly the reason that Philips went with low frequency ballasts was that the lamps couldn't withstand the high frequency harmonics. I would think that overdriving would shorten the life expectancy even more.

When you run them in a Nanotube, you keep the temperature way down, that should take care of the heat stress, from the boost. Maybe it still degrades faster, but not that much I guess.

Still the CDM's are not supposed to be unstable when running off the ideal temperature, whatever that is.

When the Nanotube runs I get approximately 60C air out and I don't need to cool the room very much at all.

Well, I am surprised the Philips ballasts can't boost. The Lights Interaction D- Papillon CDM also boosts 15% I think. They are also born with the Greenpower lamps.