Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Hottish]

Lasto Lighting

Lasto Lighting

Looks like Lasto gone out of business , I been trying to reply to an email from them all week, repeatedly bounced

Mea culpa time:

Lasto Lighting just emailed us, and they're so very nice. It seems the first email we sent never arrived, our fault. This shoe taste in my mouth is not so great. They seem very willing to share their data with us.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Their web site also seems to have disappeared.

 

[nr nodes]

So, instead of being a smartass contributing nothing (which, to be fair, I've been guilty of), why not highlight some of the claims you find dubious?

Fair enough, but I did drop a few gems earlier that probably went unnoticed. Not talking about Beta team or other serious contributors, it's the self-proclaimed experts and random distributors who get annoying and have run up 450pages with only a handful providing info that's useful in the real world. Nothing against those here to compare notes, it's just hard not to notice so much time spent droning on about the same stuff. And self-confirming dorks who like to assume the quality coming out of their closet is so much better than whoever's just because it tops their prior experience. Newsflash, lots of us grow AAA+ topshelf with lots of methods, and differing lamps.

Been using cmh myself for a bit now as supplement to DE hps in a commercial setting, works well. I've also toured a couple smallish rooms with 30-40 315's in reflectors, plus another 10x10 with 16 of them, and while they grow nice plants it's ridiculously inefficient regarding footprint and operating cost (no real power savings per canopy/yield/squarefootage at short amortization we work with). Also many ballast problems for all but philips OEM, reliability of the others is not good enough for production. Canopy penetration is very limiting of course, which is why we configure them as interlighting for spectral advantage, with primary flowering growth from the DE. Also might save yourselves some trouble, all else equal, the 860 is a waste of time in every way. For a hobbyist growing in a small space, the 315s seem totally ideal and as Rives says pick your color. I like the 942 best as it rounds out the DE spectrum and we already get plenty of 650-700nm from overhead. More ideal would be higher ppfd of cmh positioned overhead and the DE spectrum used as interlighting (fr and shading response, lower bud development equivalent to tops). An argument could be made for using the 930 as interlighting for the same reasons. We have a good quantum photon meter. One of the rooms I saw was mixed 930/942 and the other was all agros; no data to report, but various phenotype differences were apparent. I also think feeding adjustments need to be made relative to the spectral differences if you want to maximize. Luxury levels with one type of lamp will quickly turn to deficiency under others, particularly regarding phosphorous and calcium.

 

[LargePrime]

Canopy penetration is very limiting of course,

I have repeatedly found this an interesting note. Given that these are photons we are talking about, what gives "more penetration" Given that we are dumping so many mols of photons on a plant per square foot, what characteristics of light give it more or less penetration?

 

[Beta Test Team]

Canopy penetration is very limiting of course,

I have repeatedly found this an interesting note. Given that these are photons we are talking about, what gives "more penetration" Given that we are dumping so many mols of photons on a plant per square foot, what characteristics of light give it more or less penetration?

The way I see it is like the question: "what falls faster? A pound of feathers or a pound of bricks?" (Issues around aerodynamics, etc., notwithstanding.)

What I mean is if we provide 1,000 PPF at canopy from a 1,000W HPS or 315W CMH the penetration will be the same, assuming the spectra are the same (like we assume aerodynamics, etc., are the same in the feathers vs. bricks example).

However, when we account for spectrum things change. In very simple terms, spectra with greater green and far-red light have greater canopy penetration, especially when it's a multi-layer and dense canopy. This is because:

- green light has greater relative reflection than other wavebands, so green photons will be reflected in all kinds of directions off of leaves, including into the canopy where green light is used for photosynthesis, etc.

- far-red light has greatest transmittance through leaves, so greater far-red means greater irradiance intracanopy as well. However, this isn't good in most cases, adding more far-red, because the red:far-red ratio strongly effects plant elongation (stretch).

- blue and red range photons are absorbed en mass by leaves at the canopy, so fewer of those waveband photons reach intracaopy as compared to green and far-red.

Therefore, for greatest penetration intracanopy, a lamp like CMH would likely have better and more useful penetration into the canopy than a 1,000W HPS, assuming the same 1,000 PPF from both sources at canopy. This is due to the greater relative green photons from CMH. HPS tend to have greater relative far-red than CMH, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

Lampfleck is important for the full spectrum of the lamp to reach intracanopy for penetration. As well as reflection of off walls and floor, but that’s kind of off-topic, I guess.

 

[Beta Test Team]

Been using cmh myself for a bit now as supplement to DE hps in a commercial setting, works well. I've also toured a couple smallish rooms with 30-40 315's in reflectors, plus another 10x10 with 16 of them, and while they grow nice plants it's ridiculously inefficient regarding footprint and operating cost (no real power savings per canopy/yield/squarefootage at short amortization we work with).

Your post was well stated.

One thing I would add, is that with what I assume to be considerably better uniformity of irradiance over the whole canopy in those 315W rooms vs. typical HPS rooms, the overall gram yield per sq. ft. could likely be greater (assuming sufficient PPF). I know we have seen greater yield per area using greater uniformity. This is because much of the photosynthesis is local, which is why lower buds that get less PPF are fluffy and overall sub-par.

Accounting for (likely possible) yield increase for a room with greater uniformity of PPF over a short amortization period could make a big difference.

When comparing DE HPS and 315W CMH in terms of ROI (rather than traditional HPS) things are muddy, I totally agree. A big factor is 1000W DE HPS have around 10,000 hours to 95% energy deprecation, that's better than Philips 315W CMH! So relamping cost saving for 315W go out the window. Cooling is in interesting factor to account for, from the greater NIR energy from HPS.

Interesting topic, for sure.

 

[nr nodes]

I mis-spoke above, meant to say pr instead of fr (phytochrome red). Beta explained it. Not so sure on your conclusions though, will need to pull up a journal article. The reason I suggested using hps from the side and cmh overhead is to take advantage of upright phototropism, while leveraging red over far-red in the shaded areas to overcome the green-light effect Beta describes.

The game of controlling lower growth is more complex than just ppf, but I'll embarrass myself trying to explain better. Overall cooling requirement is definitely relevant, but always important to point out, we never care about saving money until peak capacity is reached and consistent (like when does that ever happen anymore hahaha).

The peeps I talk to using cmh overhead in larger spaces are frustrated by the huge number of fixtures required for coverage, and in some cases maintaining the ballasts. They always start off with "but it's great for sea of green". Unfortunately 12-18" deep canopy doesn't cut it for what I'm doing.

I was being kind of a dick before, should have said only half of the 450 pages is useless. Back in the beginning there was a lot to discuss, it's just all but the 315 went nowhere. There's still that Venture lamp in 575/775, and now they're selling it under Sunmaster Nova in 400/600/1000. Gives CMH spectrum a run for the money depending what you're trying to do, we love it for vegging with OG reflectors.

 

[Beta Test Team]

I mis-spoke above, meant to say pr instead of fr (phytochrome red). Beta explained it. Not so sure on your conclusions though, will need to pull up a journal article.

Sorry, I didn't see the part about phytochrome in your post, my bad. Just read it now.

My comments to you were only about comparing costs, revenew, ROI, etc., for a room filled with DE (like ePapillion) vs. room filled with 315W (like Greenbeams), not about what lamp is better. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I think you made very good points in your post, and it may be when accounting for useful life of DE lamp, irradiance and irradiance uniformity, the DE HPS is a better choice than 315W when considering initial and operating costs only (not spectrum). We have only ran ROI and other financial comparisons of 315W CMH vs. traditional HPS (Hortilux SuperHPS and digital ballast in XXL reflector), not DE (yet).

We plan to build out growth room using 1000W DE HPS (not sure what brand, yet), with the same dimensions, specs, and automation as our Greenbeams growth room, and very similar max PPF values. That way we can compare both in a unbiased way using quantum sensors (uniformity testing) and Cannabis growth responses.

In terms of my conclusions about spectrum (green, blue, red) as it relates to penetration (when both lamps provide the same PPF at canopy), it is correct. That is, CMH would have better penetration of useful photons than HPS - or stated more correctly, the lamp with greater relative % of green photons would have better penetration of useful photons.

The reason I suggested using hps from the side and cmh overhead is to take advantage of upright phototropism, while leveraging red over far-red in the shaded areas to overcome the green-light effect Beta describes. The game of controlling lower growth is more complex than just ppf, but I'll embarrass myself trying to explain better.

For sure (that it's more than just PPF, not that you're embarrass yourself, which I'm sure isn't true).

The peeps I talk to using cmh overhead in larger spaces are frustrated by the large number of fixtures required for coverage, and in some cases maintaining the ballasts. They always start off with "but it's great for sea of green". Unfortunately 12-18" deep canopy doesn't cut it for what I'm doing.

In the case of growing trees or bushes or thick SCROG (like double-stacked) I think it's more about placement of lamps rather than the lamps themselves (assuming the same PPF), as you seem to point out about HPS from the sides. Like rows of trees with HID above each plant, and HID above the walkway, side lighting both adjacent trees.

However, even with trees or other bigger plants, irradiance uniformity is important at canopy and likely leads to increased total yields.

DE HPS is really interesting, I do like your method of using CMH above and HPS more to the sides.

 

[nr nodes]

That's why we were trying to mess with the 860s in those vertical hoods. Larger wattage higher overhead just seems to give uniform yet deeper canopy, especially when supplemented from the sides. The 315s save wasted space between aisles compared to big lamps.

Not what I was looking for but found these in my file:

 

[Beta Test Team]

Not what I was looking for but found these in my file:

Here's a good one on green light (includes references to a couple you posted), by Dr. Cope and Dr. Bugbee. This in only a poster (but it's good), both Cope and Bugbee have researched this topic, and Cope has recently published new research regarding green light, with a few other authors (2014):

"Is supplemental green light necessary for plant growth and development?"
http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/poster/pub__3801011.pdf

 

[habeeb]

^ thanks for that link..

but let's note the important words. supplemental green light is likely species dependent ..if it's not used on cannabis the study is worthless.


"well , where did ya hear such a thing like that bill"

"well someone was growing lettuce with it, so"

" let me stop you right there tom.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHAHAHA"




in all seriousness, who would apply this to cannabis. if you really want to see what happens, go buy a discounted L4A and start flipping the green led's on. you'll get your answer in 4 months, 2 months if you buy 2x and do a side by side..

 

[Beta Test Team]

What are you talking about? Jesus, you're annoying.

You take things out of context and you don't understand what you're reading. Or, at least you don't seem to have a grasp of these matters.

You don't like me due to the LED threads, I get it, but you're just as wrong here as you where there. And also, the key point of that poster, as it relates to the current discussion in this thread - the discussion about spectrum and penetration (the whole reason I posted it) - is in the conclusion section:

Our results suggest that growth responses to supplemental green light are likely species dependent. For affected species, clearly, there is an interaction between PPF and light quality, meaning that the value of supplemental green light decreases as PPF increases.

Furthermore, excessive supplemental green light levels may induce partial shade-avoidance responses.

Our current experiments are evaluating the value of green light after canopy closure when multiple leaf layers form. We expect that the value of green light will increase as this occurs.

Why don't you read the first post in our signature?

Green light drives photosynthesis for Cannabis, just like other C3 plants. As well as has many other effects not associated to photosynthesis. Green light has been studied for growth of Cannabis and effect on THC, etc., way back around 1970. You're a day late and dollar short...

 

[unilukkari]

G12 70w from europe? For flowering of sog plants. From europe if possible.

 

[nr nodes]

I won't go off subject too much but saw Solistek has some DE MH lamps in different colors. Could make that blue from above red from the sides thing a practical reality. Or maybe they're junk, or just so-so like the other cheapo DE HPS stuff getting dropped lately by so many low-end knock-off companies like Digilume, Nanolux, Genesis, Ultrasun, Digimax, and more to come I bet.

 

[dudex]

Hello ICMag. Popping my posting cherry with this and I couldnt be more excited! I just got a couple philips ballasts off Craigslist here in Boulder. Turns out its Lasto Lighting selling off their remaining stock to make way for a "custom" bulb they are now selling. If anyone in the Denver area is looking for some Philips ballasts just search craigslist for them, I think they still have some left, cheap too.

Anyway, I talked to the guy for a few minutes about their bulbs and got some info for them. Its 350 watt cmh, mogul base and the ballast is 120 or 240 made in china. The bulb I think he said is coming from Holland or something but he wouldnt give up his supplier. They are selling for the kit for 400$ on their website and craigslist, although he unofficially told me 350 when I talked to him. Their website is lastolights.com, I hope Im allowed to post that.

After getting my Philips set up it ended up around 290$ for regular 942 bulb, ballast, 110-220 converter, mogul to pgx socket, and something to house the ballast in. Luckily I had cords sitting around so saved a few bucks their.

So my question is has anyone tried these?

Im guessing no since they seem brand new, but for 350$ Im considering getting a couple since it would be way easier than setting up more of the philips and only like 60$ more, and 35 watts more power. I couldnt find info on umols, but the spectrum looks pretty damn close to the philips bulbs so Im guessing they will perform about the same per watt.

 

[Jhhnn]

I may have to get myself a Christmas present. Anybody know where to source PGZX lamp holders (not mogul adapters) in North America?

 

[rives]

The only thing that I was able to find were the PGZ version from Mitronics, but that's been a couple of years ago now.

 

[nodestar]

I may have to get myself a Christmas present. Anybody know where to source PGZX lamp holders (not mogul adapters) in North America?

Back when I was looking I found around 2-3 sources on the internet. Either you pay $20-$30 a piece or you have to buy 10 at around $10 a piece. I ended up sourcing them from the commercial market. I knew someone that worked in the Electrician field and their Supply Rep. found a supplier. Neither my friend or his Rep. had ever heard of PGZ anything but they were still able to source them. I never found out the details or price but I'm relaying this information just to inform you that they are out there. If you don't know anyone in those fields there is still hope. I'm guessing almost any Construction or Contractor could source them or knows someone that can. If that fails you could try just walking into Ace Hardware or an equivalent. Don't bother with the front of the store. They(Ace) have sales Reps. in the back. They handle local commercial type stuff. Large orders etc. They may be able to help you out.

The challenge isn't that the sockets are super scarce. It's to know someone or convince someone to take the time to find them. Because the people that can source them wouldn't normally pick the phone up for orders that aren't commercial size. I also wouldn't expect the price to be good either route you go.

 

[Fishywater]

Hey guys,
I have skimmed through QUITE a few pages and can't seem to find a definitive "This is the one here"
I'm old... I ain't got time to read this whole thread.
Help an old fart out?
I am wanting to switch from a 400W MH/HPS setup in my fridge to the CMH.
I found what looks to be a good deal for light bulb, socket, ballast and reflector here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-Watt-Ceramic-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light#
Let me know what you all think about this for my small setup?

Thanks....

 

[Avinash.miles]

Hey guys,
I have skimmed through QUITE a few pages and can't seem to find a definitive "This is the one here"
I'm old... I ain't got time to read this whole thread.
Help an old fart out?
I am wanting to switch from a 400W MH/HPS setup in my fridge to the CMH.
I found what looks to be a good deal for light bulb, socket, ballast and reflector here:
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-Watt-Ceramic-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light#
Let me know what you all think about this for my small setup?

Thanks....

imo
look for a setup running a 315w cmh... those are the new tech...