Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Avinash.miles]

I'm so happy to be trying these CMH bulbs out.... 860w bulb, powered by traditional 1kw magnetic ballast for MH (im using a switchable ballast, fwiw) and screws into a regular HID fixture.

They are designed to be hung vertically... so that's what i did with it; hung it vertically in a one light grow that is 6 weeks into flowering and had been perviously powered by a 1k w HPS.

first impression is very nice, the white hue of light is so good for taking photos and much nicer to work in than the HPS orange.
will keep y'all posted on the results using this bulb.

gives

 

[Jhhnn]

Best of luck with them, Miles. I'm pleased that they're now in the hands of a skilled grower who can put them to use, tell us the story as it unfolds. I'd like to see how they work start to finish, something you'll likely try when your situation settles down.

Your Drizella BX is superb, extremely potent & sociable party weed of the highest order. Full of energy & optimism. Even when I'm alone, a couple of tokes feels like a party... Step aboard the mood elevator, sir. Going up!

 

[Avinash.miles]

thanks jhhn, I will def document my use of the CMH bulbs here and probably in another upcoming thread....
big thanks, gotta love community and good vibes.

 

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

RTT, what size is the total footprint and how many gavitas are you thinking overhead?

i will be moving to 12, but think i may have to start with 9 or less, and add the rest as the room produces for reinvestment. i had to use a good chunk of the money i had set aside to set up in the commercial space on some personal stuff, so am in the middle of trimming back initial investment plan to meet the new budget. if i pushed it back a few months could probably skip the ac the first cycle.

right now, this is what i'm thinking. each square is 1 foot, green x's are plants, yellow lines are the 315 vertical bulbs. gavita's will be probably 14 feet off the floor according to these guidelines:

- keep the fixtures in the rows 3-3.5' apart (from center lamp)
- Distance between the rows 5-7' (depending on height of the fixture for overlap)
- Distance from the wall 2,-3' (less than half the distance between the rows and the fixtures)

i'm limited to 36 plants flowering, and 36 plants over 12 inches tall not flowering. i'm going to see how 8 weeks veg works which is why each plant is getting 9 square feet of floor space. i will have a second identical room and will stagger the schedule so i can always have one room in flower.

i'll be making my own smart pots out of pond liner underlayment. i'm thinking about 35 gallons organic soil, 24" diameter, 18" high. i want the pots on tables on rails, so i can move rows for access.

eventually i'd like to move to irrometer tensiometer controlled drip line system to fully automate watering.

like i said, the budget doesn't allow me to roll it out exactly where i want the room to be, so there will be stages, and the lamp arrangement i start with won't be the finished layout i envision.

 

[nr nodes]

I'm not sure why you say that. There are warehouses full of HPS, and the dual arcs are a direct replacement. Universal burn, closed fixture rated. Just screw 'em in, fire 'em up. Easy for HPS growers who want to experiment or convert. Basically the same power & design considerations.

Not very creative, but sometimes that's more trouble than it's worth. I try not to overlook the easy answers, that's all.

Those lamps are essentially a 600 hps and 400 mh, so ppfd is not equal to the 1k ups, and their replacement schedule is based on the mh. You would need to replace them at least 3x more often than SE hps or cmh, and 4-5x compared to DE. They also cost 3-5x more than SE hps. I've seen nice buds grown under those exact lamps, they're just not for commercial growers (or those who have business sense anyway).

FWIW, I talked with a reputable pro who swapped out a couple 860s in a big vert room to compare. He reports they put off considerably higher heat than 1Ks with smaller bud mass and lower yield. Examples here and elsewhere online show similar results (all single lamp grows from what I've seen, would love to hear otherwise). I tried to buy one of the DNA 900 ballasts to see how it drives the lamp differently, but they appear to still be vaporware for now.

I think there's just one model. They came from this guy-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Philips...023?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3390cdb75f

I think he got them as water damage salvage from the looks of the cartons, doesn't hurt the bulbs, & he was great to deal with. A+ That's almost theft pricing, btw. You get 6 for less than the price of 2 anywhere else.

Actually better, even with shipping they're like 2 for price of 1! I might have tried a six-pack myself if not for just getting rid of my last mag ballasts.

 

[nr nodes]

Were you inspired by Capulator's hexagon tree room? If not you may want to give it a look. Is the quote advice from Gavita? Did you send them your layout for feedback? I think they still offer that for free.

 

[JKD]

Going off of the posted spectrum for the 860W it makes sense that it may produce more heat - IR begins at 700nm which is within the spectrum it emits.

A 1000W lamp out producing an 860W lamp also seems logical.

Although these lamps interest me for their spectrum vs sunlight/PAR and perhaps quality of produce (I've not used them yet),

I would still love to see a watt vs watt comparison:

(6 x 1000W) vs (10 x 600W) vs (7 x 860W) rooms would be an excellent experiment.

 

[Jhhnn]

Those lamps are essentially a 600 hps and 400 mh, so ppfd is not equal to the 1k ups, and their replacement schedule is based on the mh. You would need to replace them at least 3x more often than SE hps or cmh, and 4-5x compared to DE. They also cost 3-5x more than SE hps. I've seen nice buds grown under those exact lamps, they're just not for commercial growers (or those who have business sense anyway).

The referenced 1000w plantmax lamps are $50. The SE's are $75 or so, the DE's are $100, plus the cost of the special fixture/ ballast assys. Going from an existing installation is expensive, but likely to pay off in the long run, the very long run. A guy would need to replace the dual arc lamp 10 times before he made up the purchase price of the DE fixture & lamp, longer if he changed the DE lamp at all. That difference is big enough that it'd take some while to offset w/ purportedly greater production. Neither the SE nor the DE are full spectrum, so if that's what a grower wants then the addition of CMH and/or MH adds to the expense. Just sayin'- there's more than one set of initial circumstances, more than one way to look at it. Old fashioned magnetic ballasts & fixtures are also extremely robust & ultra reliable, generally requiring nothing more than lamp changes over a decade of use or more. When they do fail, it's often because of poor lamp maintenance- running lamps to EOL can take the ballast with them, something growers generally won't do.

FWIW, I talked with a reputable pro who swapped out a couple 860s in a big vert room to compare. He reports they put off considerably higher heat than 1Ks with smaller bud mass and lower yield. Examples here and elsewhere online show similar results (all single lamp grows from what I've seen, would love to hear otherwise). I tried to buy one of the DNA 900 ballasts to see how it drives the lamp differently, but they appear to still be vaporware for now.

Meh. I haven't seen any 860 grow journals or extensive first hand knowledgeable posts about them here. Could have missed them. I rarely frequent other grow forums. I trust Miles' skills as a grower & am happy to have been able to provide him with some 860 bulbs that I really couldn't use. I'm withholding judgement until I see his results & those of Tystikk, should he choose that path.

The situation for CO growers is changing rapidly. In the past, yield was pretty much everything because there was an artificial scarcity of product & corresponding high prices. That's changing & customers will inevitably become more sophisticated in their preferences, as well. Full spectrum lighting may provide nuance that customers will appreciate- it's impossible to say at this point, but that possibility shouldn't be ruled out, either.

The one thing I'm sure of is that the reduced stretch of full spectrum lighting can be an asset for personal growers, allowing longer veg & bigger harvests from a given batch. That's particularly true with rangey NLD varieties in confined overhead situations. Critics see the product as leafier when the difference can also be described as HPS product just being stemmier with longer internodes. If the buds are smaller under one light than another, that may be offset by increased density for all I know.

Like I said- lots of different ways of looking at it, with strong opinions being more prevalent than strong facts. It'd be very interesting indeed to work in an environment of tightly controlled variables & full analysis, both objective & subjective. In my space w/ my personal grower limitations, I'm just flyin' by the seat of my pants, havin' fun with it, trying to grow truly exceptional weed.

I've mostly been lucky so far.

 

[JKD]

This is the only 860w grow journal I have seen:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=262053

Looking forward to Avinash killing it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Going off of the posted spectrum for the 860W it makes sense that it may produce more heat - IR begins at 700nm which is within the spectrum it emits.

A 1000W lamp out producing an 860W lamp also seems logical.

Although these lamps interest me for their spectrum vs sunlight/PAR and perhaps quality of produce (I've not used them yet),

I would still love to see a watt vs watt comparison:

(6 x 1000W) vs (10 x 600W) vs (7 x 860W) rooms would be an excellent experiment.

I look at it differently. Nearly all of the lamp output ultimately becomes heat as it's absorbed into the environment around it. Very little is actually converted into plant mass, and really only a small portion of output existing in the visible range that plants can use. It's impossible for an 860w lamp to put out more total heat than a 1000w lamp, for example, regardless of spectral distribution.

Rives posted this link earlier, which I see as very revealing.

http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf

Notice the enormous spike in the infrared range for HPS. That's pure radiant heat, wasted energy, because the plants simply can't use it. The 315 agro CMH is probably the best at shifting that output into the visible range for plant use, explaining why it's so effective. That spectrum shift is a big part of the tech behind all CMH, allowing for lower power consumption with the same amount of visible light when referenced against both HPS & conventional MH. There's no magical way to get the same visible light output at 315 or 330W as at 400W- that has to occur because energy has been shifted out of the Infrared & maybe UV ranges into the visible. It can be no other way.

Spectral distribution within the visible range will obviously create differences as well, but plants can use all photons in the visible range. At the same power output, CMH delivers more of those useable photons.

 

[JKD]

I don't disagree.

My understanding (now) is that in terms of heat the difference between IR and white light is only that we can actually see white light.

In theory; for a given amount of energy the more that is able to be used by the plant, the less there remains to exist as heat?

The 860W has more output (% wise) in the IR range than the 330W though.

http://www.dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_900_spec.pdf

http://www.dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_330_spec.pdf

I would still like to see (6 x 1000W) vs (7 x 860W).

I will leave my earlier post as is but clearly it should be edited after what you've posted - as you say an 860W should not be able to produce more heat than a 1000W if all light produces heat... Thanks.

 

[Avinash.miles]

CMH

CMH

This is the only 860w grow journal I have seen:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=262053

Looking forward to Avinash killing it.

sadly that guy used the vert lites way above his canopy instead of dropping them DOWN into the plants, vert style....

also fwiw my (limited) experience with dual arc style bulbs has been VERY good. granted i was buying the hortilux super blue (possibly most expensive dual arc out there). I loved the spectrum it put off (nice and white, kinda like the CMHs) and DEF noticed better growth in veg (tighter nodes and beefy stalks) under the super blue bulbs as well as nice dense nugs, perhaps a lil less stretch in flowering....
BUT
really i think CMH (in some form or another, I'm still not sure WHICH one) could be a real gamechanger....

and
since there seems to be a lil interest in the 860w vert CMH... here are some pics of it hanging with the ladies....

^ hanging

^birds eye view

^ upskirt

for the record, these plants were vegged under hps and flowered for 6 weeks around 1k w hps plantmax bulb...
i switched out the hps as soon as i got my hands on the CMH bulbs; flipped the switch on the ballast was all it took.

room is a mix of plants one each of: flo, harlequin, chunky diesel, 2 phenos of flo og, my "Caregiver" strain (flo x grimm reaper), and a few others....

will keep y'all posted about the progress and results from the CMH 860 w bulb

a million thanks go out once again to Jhhn for the opportunity to try this tech. out.

 

[Jhhnn]

I don't disagree.

My understanding (now) is that in terms of heat the difference between IR and white light is only that we can actually see white light.

The 860W has more output (% wise)in the IR range than the 330W though.

http://www.dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_900_spec.pdf

http://www.dnalightingsolutions.com/pdf/Tru_Sun_330_spec.pdf

I will readily admit my knowledge of lighting is not nearly so advanced as many members here; I also admit to being heavily biased toward CMH purely because I like the theory of their spectrum compared with sunlight and PAR and also because I enjoy how plants look in the light they emit...

I will leave my earlier post as is but clearly it should be edited after what you've posted - as you say an 860W should not be able to produce more heat than a 1000W if all light produces heat... Thanks.

We're very much on the same page, I think. What the charts in Rives' links show is what the others miss, and I think it's important- that large infrared energy spike out past 800nm for all HID sources. That bitch is huge wrt HPS, off the chart, less with MH, and way less with the 315 CMH agro. The whole CMH family benefits from that to varying degrees, I'm sure.

Philips took that in a direction very valuable to their existing industrial users- same amount of light, lower power consumption & less heat with direct retrofit bulbs. They also last longer, meaning more savings. All growers can receive the same benefits with existing magnetic MH ballasts.

They also took a new departure for new industrial customers with the 315 line, offering more of the same benefits. With the 315 agro, they've tuned the spectrum to benefit growers even more, or at least that's the intention. For those willing & able to make the investment, they represent the state of the art in HID lighting, probably the best currently available.

All of this is just my hobby & I'm habitually cost conscious, meaning nearly all of my grow light equipment other than the lamps came to me used at a steep discount over new. It also means there's no way I'm giving up big money for lamps, either. No freakin' way. The deal on the 330's I can use was very attractive, letting me move in that direction at low cost, and the 860's pure serendipity, something I was happy to pass along to Miles, somebody I'd only known previously from his contributions here.

I'm on the lookout for a used Grzillac dual bulb reflector so that I can try two 330's as replacement for my current 1000w dual arc. Other dual bulb reflectors are so huge that it's hard to fit them into my space & plans. A vent hood is a necessity, as it's difficult for me to shed heat stealthily with ventilation alone & I really don't want the added overhead of A/C.

Yield from the dual arc is more than sufficient, almost embarrassing considering my purposes, so maybe a couple of 330's can give adequate yield while diminishing other issues. Even here in CO where what I'm doing is legal, stealth is very desirable because I have unusually high exposure to casual observers, don't want to carelessly become a target for burglary.

 

[Drek]

I read an article a while back about plant responses to both red and far-red spectra. It was interesting and showed(if i remember correctly) how some plants actually use more far-red, than red. We can see with that Agro chart, and Philip's providing that data at ~825nM, that's it's important. I don't know how cannabis uses far-red.

I fired up one of my 860's last night. Nice lamp. Just finished a small crop with the Retro; very happy with the results. 860 is a little more red than Retro. It's true when they say 3700k tech, even 300k makes a difference. A lot more output(obviously); heat didn't seem too bad considering 1000w HPS. Seemed not bad considering how much power is being used; a person should be able to keep it ~ 22" from the top of a canopy.

It's just such a nice work of engineering though. All the internal bracing, etc. Not cheap to make.

 

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

Were you inspired by Capulator's hexagon tree room? If not you may want to give it a look. Is the quote advice from Gavita? Did you send them your layout for feedback? I think they still offer that for free.

haven't seen capulator's room. if you have a link handy would save me searching.

the spacing guidelines are from wazzup in the 1000w DE thread. i had contacted them for layout advice, but never got a reply. maybe i'll give it a go again.

 

[Jhhnn]

I read an article a while back about plant responses to both red and far-red spectra. It was interesting and showed(if i remember correctly) how some plants actually use more far-red, than red. We can see with that Agro chart, and Philip's providing that data at ~825nM, that's it's important. I don't know how cannabis uses far-red.

I fired up one of my 860's last night. Nice lamp. Just finished a small crop with the Retro; very happy with the results. 860 is a little more red than Retro. It's true when they say 3700k tech, even 300k makes a difference. A lot more output(obviously); heat didn't seem too bad considering 1000w HPS. Seemed not bad considering how much power is being used; a person should be able to keep it ~ 22" from the top of a canopy.

It's just such a nice work of engineering though. All the internal bracing, etc. Not cheap to make.

After reading your post, I found this tidbit about plants' use of far red, near infrared-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome

Fascinating, & a deeper subject than even plant scientists understand completely. It doesn't seem that plants use that 825nm spike in HID lamps at all, however. Well, other than to stay warm.

And, yeh, Philips engineers went to extraordinary lengths to create the 860 as an open fixture lamp. That little ceramic egg must pack a helluva punch if it decides to blow. The inner tube & spiral wire wrapping seem to be an explosion containment vessel, a scattershield. Pretty slick.

That's what freaked me out with the damaged 330's that I test fired- when they started oscillating like a 1960's strobe light, I shut 'em down as quickly as possible. Yikes.

They went into the lamp recycling bin at my former place of employment. It was nice to chat, nice to have that resource, as well. It's otherwise tough to get used lamps into proper recycling channels around here.

 

[Ttystikk]

i will be moving to 12, but think i may have to start with 9 or less, and add the rest as the room produces for reinvestment. i had to use a good chunk of the money i had set aside to set up in the commercial space on some personal stuff, so am in the middle of trimming back initial investment plan to meet the new budget. if i pushed it back a few months could probably skip the ac the first cycle.

right now, this is what i'm thinking. each square is 1 foot, green x's are plants, yellow lines are the 315 vertical bulbs. gavita's will be probably 14 feet off the floor according to these guidelines:



View Image

i'm limited to 36 plants flowering, and 36 plants over 12 inches tall not flowering. i'm going to see how 8 weeks veg works which is why each plant is getting 9 square feet of floor space. i will have a second identical room and will stagger the schedule so i can always have one room in flower.

i'll be making my own smart pots out of pond liner underlayment. i'm thinking about 35 gallons organic soil, 24" diameter, 18" high. i want the pots on tables on rails, so i can move rows for access.

eventually i'd like to move to irrometer tensiometer controlled drip line system to fully automate watering.

like i said, the budget doesn't allow me to roll it out exactly where i want the room to be, so there will be stages, and the lamp arrangement i start with won't be the finished layout i envision.

Nine vertical Super Silos, for the WIN! Thirty six plants = four per silo, perfect. Plenty of room to move around, would need a total of 18 thouies @ 2 per Silo. Just for another perspective on how to build out that room...

I'm averaging just under two per plant, with recently installed improvements I should bump the average up to 2 1/2# per. Ten per silo, ninety per run in your space.

 

[Ttystikk]

Okay, double posting, but with a purpose; you all have talked me into grabbing a case of these 860W CDM lamps. I have the ideal setup- I can even run one of these in the same silo as an HPS thouie and let the plant show me which it likes best.

 

[Drek]

After reading your post, I found this tidbit about plants' use of far red, near infrared-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome

Fascinating, & a deeper subject than even plant scientists understand completely. It doesn't seem that plants use that 825nm spike in HID lamps at all, however. Well, other than to stay warm.

And, yeh, Philips engineers went to extraordinary lengths to create the 860 as an open fixture lamp. That little ceramic egg must pack a helluva punch if it decides to blow. The inner tube & spiral wire wrapping seem to be an explosion containment vessel, a scattershield. Pretty slick.

Hey JH

Yeah I couldn't remember what exactly the article talked about other than certain responses in different plants to red and far red. Wiki is usually a good source for info. I think plants use red and far red for starting and stopping certain responses in how they grow, etc. Here's a bit:

"The absorption spectra of Pr and Pfr overlap to some extent and in the light an equilibrium between Pr and Pfr is established that reflects ambient light conditions. This equilibrium responds rapidly to changes in the ratio of red to far-red light, making phytochromes useful as sensors of critical changes in light quality. The physiological and developmental responses regulated by phytochromes in plants and algae are very diverse, including seed germination, photomorphogenesis and chloroplast movement, shade avoidance, and photoperiodic time measurement [3]. In most cases, responses are induced by red light and cancelled by far-red, leading to the idea that Pfr is the active conformation and Pr is inactive. Phytochrome function in other organisms is less well understood, but it has been implicated in light regulation of motility and pigment synthesis in bacteria and sexual development and secondary metabolism in fungi."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2575506/

 

[Ttystikk]

Oooook... I read that three times and I still haven't the faintest idea what it says.