Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Ttystikk]

that is tough to say.
I can find exactaly no real info about the Senlite bulbs except they claim 130,000 lm

I was just discussing with Rives in PM's about 315W vs 1K HPS or whatever. We both much prefer the 315W, but we are finding it hard to make the case in a commercial grow.

The 315 has much better PAR per watt and way more UV. and last way longer. But some growers have showen lights do not matter much.

If the 315W bulbs put out as much more PPf per watt than HPS thouies as is said, a lil math sez four should suffice to replace two of them.

Check my math;
My silo is 6.25' tall x 5' in diameter, for a total of 100 ft² of trellis surface area. I plan to hang the four 315W bulbs down the centerline, bare and vertically. Will that work? Any reason why not?

 

[LargePrime]

more PPf per watt than HPS thouies

where you getting the 1KHPS PPF/watt number?

Check my math;

A few pages back the expensive 315W system guys white paper had the 315W placed at about 3' on center. so it might seem one could place 2 18" from the top and bottom. 4 even closer cant be worse. watch the power lines touching the bulbs.

Other than that it seems great. Perhaps someone smarter should chime in?

 

[Jhhnn]

CDM860 is 860watts of 3700k ceramic metal halide. There's no reason to compare it to HPS other than they both have ceramic arc tubes. CDM860 is a nice lamp.

Mixing lamps is almost always a worse bet than having a good spectrum emitting from a single source.

I'm not so sure about that last sentence, given how well my plantmax dual arc seems to work.

Just sayin'.

 

[Drek]

I'm not so sure about that last sentence, given how well my plantmax dual arc seems to work.

Just sayin'.

A dual arc is basically a single source. I was speaking more on mixing different lamps in different reflectors, etc.

 

[Jhhnn]

Sure call me out!
I was going to go on about Heath Robinson, and ask how really important lights, or light wattage is. but I was out of time.

They would if they could, but they literally can't.

It seems the 315W technology creates too much pressure to scale it up to a higher wattage safely. Although I do not have the documentation to support this theory.

Which is why, IMHO, you can draw a stark line between the 315W tech and any other similar CDM tech. This does not mean that other CDM tech can't beat other HPS or MH, or that it can. I am saying is that the 315W CDM is the current state of the art in HID lighting. But I am often wrong.Ok then, but why is it that the web pic shows a series of peaks at ~430-450nm and the PDF show a dip in that range? There are other inconsistencies if you look close.
Or why do all the other PDFs have the same graphs and the 375 the average in the PDF and the peaks on the web page?

Meh. Which ever of the 375 charts is the correct one, they all represent good spectrums for growing. If I had to choose, I'd go with the one in the spec sheet rather than the advertising blurb which the tech guys may not have reviewed at all. Mistakes happen.

I also think it's important to remember that the 315's were developed for the European industrial lighting industry, particularly for new installations- one version warmer than the other to accommodate differing needs in different areas. The agro version almost seems like an afterthought.

I think that the limited wattage is more about the tech behind the ballasts than the bulbs, given that the same tech is behind the 860. That's not any ordinary electronic ballast at all, given the 120hz lamp output. Scaling up power handling in electronic devices can be difficult/ expensive. They needed to find a sweet price point to introduce the series at all & may not have wanted to compete with their own agro line at 1000w.

I def agree that the 315 line appears to be at the apex of current HID development. If I were a commercial grower with a sizeable budget, I'd be testing them, figuring out if they're worth the price of conversion. As it is, I'm just a one bulb grower enjoying the ride, exploring modern cannabis after being away from it for 25 years. OTOH, I'm also an incurable technologist, having made my living that way for many years. I may well go there if I live long enough & the purchase price delta with alternatives decreases.

 

[Ttystikk]

where you getting the 1KHPS PPF/watt number?
A few pages back the expensive 315W system guys white paper had the 315W placed at about 3' on center. so it might seem one could place 2 18" from the top and bottom. 4 even closer cant be worse. watch the power lines touching the bulbs.

Other than that it seems great. Perhaps someone smarter should chime in?

I read somewhere recently that the 315W lamp had 44% more ppf per watt than HPS, of course I can't find the reference now. That seems in line with what everyone is saying about them, however.

The shape of the silo is like, well, a grain silo. It's 5' in diameter, so hanging bulbs down the middle along the centerline puts them 30" from any side. I was thinking of hanging them roughly equidistant from one another, about a foot apart. The problem is that it only adds up to 1260W, an awful lot less than 2kW.

 

[Drek]

I read somewhere recently that the 315W lamp had 44% more ppf per watt than HPS, of course I can't find the reference now. That seems in line with what everyone is saying about them, however.

Depends on the lamp and yes, at 315 watts. It doesn't have a total higher PPFD than 1000w HPS tho. 315w Agro is med wattage and rated at 1.9 umols per watt (I believe) giving it an output of ~ 600 umols(pretty good for 315w).

 

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

Mixing lamps is almost always a worse bet than having a good spectrum emitting from a single source.

why? i'm planning on doing gavita 1000w DE high mounts above, and 315 agro vertical inter lighting.

 

[Drek]

Actually that sounds pretty cool, but you'll have varying amounts of spectrum in different areas, depending on how and where the lights are placed.

 

[nr nodes]

CDM860 is 860watts of 3700k ceramic metal halide. There's no reason to compare it to HPS other than they both have ceramic arc tubes. CDM860 is a nice lamp.

Mixing lamps is almost always a worse bet than having a good spectrum emitting from a single source.

Do you have data on this from a room with at least 24-36 lights? If so perhaps I can learn from you.

I'm not so sure about that last sentence, given how well my plantmax dual arc seems to work.

Just sayin'.

Those lamps can provide benefit for small-scale applications, but totally impractical for filling a warehouse. By mixing I mean examples such as @RTT's idea below, hybrid overhead like Gavita recommends with their DE and LEP, or just old-school tree style with numerous verts around each plant (and perhaps even double stacked).

why? i'm planning on doing gavita 1000w DE high mounts above, and 315 agro vertical inter lighting.

Yup, let's see it buddy! What's your layout plan for the verts? Seems like with 315s the aisles will need to be tight.

 

[Pangea]

Any users of the 860w CDM out there? Fonzarelli hasnt been around for awhile and I think he switched away from the 860's as he thought they were defective.

Do they ignite with a MH or HPS ballast?

Lets see some 860cdm buds please!

 

[RikkiTikkiTavi]

Yup, let's see it buddy! What's your layout plan for the verts? Seems like with 315s the aisles will need to be tight.

i'm playing with different floor plans. will be chopping current crop in about 2 weeks. once thats almost cured i'll be looking for warehouse space in earnest, which is where i'll be rolling out the new lights.

roughly though, i'm thinking 6 plant in 6 ovals (36 flowering plant max) around each 315 with another 315 at the corner where 4 ovals meet.

have to finalize my budget and amended shopping list, but i might have to do one cycle in the new space before grabbing the gavitas.

 

[Jhhnn]

Any users of the 860w CDM out there? Fonzarelli hasnt been around for awhile and I think he switched away from the 860's as he thought they were defective.

Do they ignite with a MH or HPS ballast?

Lets see some 860cdm buds please!

The 860's run on magnetic MH 1000w ballasts. I received some by mistake, tested 'em w/ a switchable ballast, passed them on to a fellow CO grower as I just can't use vert bulbs.

He's a pretty prolific poster, in the midst of other stuff atm, but the story will probably unfold over the next several months.

I hope so, anyway.

 

[nr nodes]

RTT, what size is the total footprint and how many gavitas are you thinking overhead?

 

[Ttystikk]

The 860's run on magnetic MH 1000w ballasts. I received some by mistake, tested 'em w/ a switchable ballast, passed them on to a fellow CO grower as I just can't use vert bulbs.

He's a pretty prolific poster, in the midst of other stuff atm, but the story will probably unfold over the next several months.

I hope so, anyway.

Aha, so you already had someone in mind. I figured it couldn't hurt to ask...

 

[Ttystikk]

Depends on the lamp and yes, at 315 watts. It doesn't have a total higher PPFD than 1000w HPS tho. 315w Agro is med wattage and rated at 1.9 umols per watt (I believe) giving it an output of ~ 600 umols(pretty good for 315w).

The trouble here is that I'll be placing the bulbs much closer together than 30" vertically along the centerline of my Silo. Since the light each emits will be reinforced by that if the others, all in relation to their distance, I need to know if four x 315W CDM will do justice to the same surface area as two thouies or if I need to make it smaller. Smaller means shrinking diameter, currently 60", or 30" from lamp to trellis in all directions.

 

[Jhhnn]

Aha, so you already had someone in mind. I figured it couldn't hurt to ask...

Yeh, the promise had already been made when you asked.

 

[Jhhnn]

Those lamps can provide benefit for small-scale applications, but totally impractical for filling a warehouse. By mixing I mean examples such as @RTT's idea below, hybrid overhead like Gavita recommends with their DE and LEP, or just old-school tree style with numerous verts around each plant (and perhaps even double stacked).

I'm not sure why you say that. There are warehouses full of HPS, and the dual arcs are a direct replacement. Universal burn, closed fixture rated. Just screw 'em in, fire 'em up. Easy for HPS growers who want to experiment or convert. Basically the same power & design considerations.

Not very creative, but sometimes that's more trouble than it's worth. I try not to overlook the easy answers, that's all.

 

[Ttystikk]

Yeh, the promise had already been made when you asked.

LOL, That's what I figured- I hook my pals up the same way, every chance I get. I gave one friend a red LED pontoon for hanging over his indagro induction fixture just last month! He'd given me a complete 600W setup with a cool tube fixture and a quantum ballast the week before that... as the song says, we get by with a little help from our friends.

How much are those direct replacement 860W CDM bulbs? Exactly which one do I go for, to get the best spectrum for our application? I'd really like to try a pair in my Super Silo asap.

 

[Jhhnn]

LOL, That's what I figured- I hook my pals up the same way, every chance I get. I gave one friend a red LED pontoon for hanging over his indagro induction fixture just last month! He'd given me a complete 600W setup with a cool tube fixture and a quantum ballast the week before that... as the song says, we get by with a little help from our friends.

How much are those direct replacement 860W CDM bulbs? Exactly which one do I go for, to get the best spectrum for our application? I'd really like to try a pair in my Super Silo asap.

I think there's just one model. They came from this guy-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Philips...023?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3390cdb75f

I think he got them as water damage salvage from the looks of the cartons, doesn't hurt the bulbs, & he was great to deal with. A+ That's almost theft pricing, btw. You get 6 for less than the price of 2 anywhere else.

I kinda went OT talking about the plantmax dual arc bulbs. Remember- the 860 needs a 1000w MH magnetic ballast & vertical orientation. The dual arcs are different. 1000bulbs has the best deal on those-

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/88210/PX-LU1000MHDA.html