Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Illumination]

Pssst:

Phillips is re-designing their 315w CMH to provide higher PPF per watt at the behest of Cycloptics Technologies for their CEA (Controlled Environment Agriculture) luminaires! Soon come those new lamps will be on the market ... you heard it here first, folks!

Cycloptics is the future because they are using the best of everything, and they are using vertically orientated HID in a horizontal reflector. That's the BEST way to place an HID in a reflector. But the 315 watt CMH luminaires are only for scientists using CEA chambers, at this time. Cycloptics and the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture have spent > $500,000 just on testing the CMH luminaire, which provides 1.9 to 1.95 PPF/watt!

That makes their luminaire have higher efficiency than all other HID lamps/luminaires I have ever seen, including 1,000 watt HPS like the new "Gavita-Pro 1000w 400 volt" (which only has 1.85 PPF/watt), as well as LED arrays. And the CMH lamp has better spectrum than HPS!

Next summer Cycloptics Tech. LLC is releasing a commercial CEA greenhouse 600 watt luminaire that offers > 2.0 PPF/watt! Lookout LEDs, your days are numbered in terms of efficiency! And the 600 watt Cycloptics luminaire will be a Gavita-Pro 1000w 400 volt killer, sorry Whazzup, but it's true. And not only that, but any US grower can use the 600 watt Cycloptics lumianire, while few US growers will be able to (easily) use the 400 volt Gavita-Pro.

I tried to get a few of their "All Bright" 315 watt CMH lumimares because they are better than anything else in terms of spectrum and efficiency (as long as diffuse reflective walls are used, I like Orca film). The only issue with the All Bright, is the benchmark for irradiance is 500 or 600 PPFD, IIRC.

The new 600w luminaire for CEA greenhouse (which can be used in a grow room) will be the death of all other reflectors IMO, and all other luminares, including the Gavita-Pro 1000 watt 400 volt. The only catch is using Cycloptic luminaires means we depend upon 'mixing' irradiance foot prints between reflectors and/or one needs to use diffuse reflective walls for highest efficiency.

Mylar is specular and is not what any grower should use, we want diffuse, not specular reflective material for walls, floor and ceiling. I am a big fan of Orca film ...

Highly efficient luminaires for supplemental greenhouse lightning
USDA Research, Education & Economic Information System; Cycloptics Technologies LLC.
http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/217900.html

• note: these luminaires can be used equally well in a grow room, in fact, it's better to use in a grow room due to more reflection from close walls.

Which is why
i used flat brite white EXTERIOR paint in my chamber...also have the pl 2000 400 watt deep reflector setup...Its test grid is amazing in a 3x3...only 3-400 fc difference in the grid!! That is some very interesting developments they are doing ....gonna have to watch this

 

[Illumination]

CMH vs HPS GROW

CMH vs HPS GROW

Hello everyone, sorry if this is a redundant post... I haven't been able to keep up with this huge thread over the years.

Is anyone aware of or done or seen a side-by-side grow of hps vs cmh through flowering? Same grower, same cutting, nutes, same time different rooms?

I have had my cmh for 3 grows now but I can only let myself use it up to week 2-3 flower. I tend to see leafier plants by those who use the cmh all the way, but not always.

http://riddlem3.com/index.php/topic,2041.0.html

2 clones in same environments, same water/feed schedule, only diff is cmh over one and hps over other

Very telling and has me convinced cmh is where its at for me

 

[MEnSouRdeeZ]

the only thing that does boost the quality of high is UV-B (i used medical Philips TL 12 lamp). i didn't try CMH so i wonder does anyone notice any difference between HPS and CMH _in terms of high_? also, i'm interested why here everyone stick with Philips Retro-White, why not say Osram Powerball? to my eyes CMH waste too much power on green part of the spectrum, right now i think my hypothetical reference fixture will contain HPS as a PPF powerhorse with Philips TL/12 for UV-B, TL/08 for UV-A, and either TL/03 (420 nm peak) or TL/52 (460 nm peak) for deep blue, altogether to hit directly on the targets rather than wasting energy across wide spectrum like CMH.

CMH alone vs. HPS alone CMH wins to me hands down. However I do use a combo ~60% CMH/ 40% HPS

Philips Retro White 4K. The 3K is not worth growers time, correct it wastes too much in green- 600 nm, causing the relative power distribution curve to drop below 30% However 4K color temp Philips bulbs, the spike only causes the relative power distribution an even 35-45% curve in spans of peak photosynthetic wavelengths, with 50%+ peaks 625-655nm, 80% peak @ 595nm. This is a decently good power distribution for an all-in-one lamp. The plant utilizes all of the PS I and PS II pathways and creates a much more healthy plant. At just shy of 100 lm/watt with this SPD is growing great plants no surprise. 15000K and 20000 K metal halides are probably around 70lm/watt have poor lumen maintenance and low CRI. If you are combining them trying to supplement each profile this can get expensive, hot, etc. This is one bulb that is nearly sufficient in it self and it is extremely low heat operating.

However you are correct, contrary to popular belief this bulb emits no effective amount of UV-B rays. My question is this: Where are you getting this Philips NL 12 medical bulb beacuse I have tried to purchase this with no success.

I have been using a Hor 400w CMH in a vertical position for over a month, so far, all is good. Bulb fires right up, burns very bright, no issues. I am willing to accept a shorter life from the bulb as I don't use them for more than two grows

The lamp is first in HID class in that it retains 85% lumen maintenance for half of its 15,000 hr rated life. I would at least run it half of its life, which at 12/12 is 3.42 years. I actually notice that the color doesnt get its truest white until it has run at least a month.

Seems like early flowering with MH, mid flower HPS, and finishing with MH gives the same if not better quality results as the CMH.

Love the CMH, don't get me wrong, just way too much work to get bigger yields out of it.

I agree with using a 600w HPS along side a 400 w CMH. This has been proven successful with guys like WhiteRasta, who said the addition of CMH gave him 30%+ larger buds. But why would you toss the CMH in favor of the older MH, which has ~65% lumen maintenance (vs 85% cMH) and ~70 or lower CRI (CMH = 92)?


Also Sulfur Plasma lights that I have seen have super high green output and are very high maintenance.

LED's that combine multiple wavelengths like the Solar Genesis VI are decent but not as good as CMH. They tend to favor blue output slightly more. At 30,000hr average rated life, they're definitley not worth $7,000 (see below)



As for "Osram Powerball" could you pls give more details.

Any new info on the Philips bulbs below? Specifically designed Philips agricultural lamps???

1. Philips Agro 400w 230v 660 uMol (output stabile, extra blue spectrum)
2. Philips Greenpower 400w 230v 725 uMol (output stabile)

600w
1. Philips SON-T plus 600w 230v 1045 uMol (output "instabile") output degrades fast
2. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 230v 1100 uMol (output stabile)
3. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 400v 1150 uMol (output stabile)
4. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 400v EL* 1170 uMol (output stabile) *specialy for high frequency electronic ballast >100.000 hertz

1000w
1. Philips SON-T Greenpower 1000w 400v EL* DE 1925 uMol (output stabile) in reality the lamp gives 2100 uMol.
*specialy for high frequency electronic ballast <100.000 hertz

 

[whazzup]

Any new info on the Philips bulbs below? Specifically designed Philips agricultural lamps???

1. Philips Agro 400w 230v 660 uMol (output stabile, extra blue spectrum)
2. Philips Greenpower 400w 230v 725 uMol (output stabile)

600w
1. Philips SON-T plus 600w 230v 1045 uMol (output "instabile") output degrades fast
2. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 230v 1100 uMol (output stabile)
3. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 400v 1150 uMol (output stabile)
4. Philips SON-T Greenpower 600w 400v EL* 1170 uMol (output stabile) *specialy for high frequency electronic ballast >100.000 hertz

1000w
1. Philips SON-T Greenpower 1000w 400v EL* DE 1925 uMol (output stabile) in reality the lamp gives 2100 uMol.
*specialy for high frequency electronic ballast <100.000 hertz

yes, the 1000W EL DE is since a year the Master Greenpower PLUS, with over 2000 uMol specified by Philips (+4%). A plus version is also announced for the 600W 400V EL coming year. Frequencies are > 100.000 hz btw, they are not for normal electronic ballasts.

 

[onegreenday]

so this Gavita description is premature?
Since the bulb is not available yet?


from Gavita:

GAVITA Pro 600 US electronic ballast

The GAVITA Pro 600 is the first 240 Volt electronic ballast that powers the professional Philips GreenPower 600W 400V EL (electronic) lamp. This lamp has the highest PAR light output, improved spectrum and the best light maintenance (>95% PAR light over one year of use). Being the most efficient horticultural lamp available and the only lamp specifically developed for electronic ballasts this is the lamp of choice for Dutch professional greenhouse growers.

yes, the 1000W EL DE is since a year the Master Greenpower PLUS, with over 2000 uMol specified by Philips (+4%). A plus version is also announced for the 600W 400V EL coming year. Frequencies are > 100.000 hz btw, they are not for normal electronic ballasts.

 

[whazzup]

no, on contrary. The Master Greenpower plus 400V 1000W EL DE is already on the market for a year now and all fixtures are equipped with it. The 600W 400V EL is due for an uplgrade to the plus version next year, as announced on the Horti Fair this year. It is already the most effective horticultural 600W HPS lamp, but the performance will improve 4% next year.

 

[MEnSouRdeeZ]

thanks whazzup
my question about the current model 600w boils down to this...
according to the spec sheet its spectral power distribution looks about the same as most conventional horticultural HPS bulbs. These also achieve 90,000 lumens at the traditional voltage.

so until this plus bulb arrives next year whats the difference between their latest 400v 600w horti lamp and any decent horticultural 600w HPS lamp at traditional voltage?

also, Osram's Hyper red led's look to be able to outpace this 400v HID tech soon IMO

 

[whazzup]

Well until now this lamp has the highest micromole output, up to 8% more than conventional 230V lamps so it still has the edge and intends to keep it next year, outputting 4% more. If you compare it to HPS lamps that have been not developed for horticulture you will see different spectrums. But generally I do agree, these spectrums all look kinda dull - there is only little difference, it's different accents though that can make a difference.

 

[Azeotrope]

Just thought I'd throw in here that there seems to be a lot of folks that are under the impression that plants donb't use green areas of the spectrum. That is not even close to correct....... As a matter of fact, I would never do the "green" light bulb thing. If the desired lights aren't on or comming on in 15minutes, I don't disturb the ladies. The green light can affect the plants. How much is hard to tell; lots of factors.....

Ballance is key, but don't get to carried away judging the 3k until you've tried them. I have a 250w GE 3k and some 150w 3k and they do much better than a HPS as they have a much more complete and ballanced spectral signature. I still love the 4k and actually like the combo of a 150w 4k (philips) on a digital 144hz square wave with the 250w 3k GE for bloom.

Regards to everyone. Azeo

 

[whazzup]

I totally agree green has a function. Uploaded a few published research papers about that here

 

[Pinball Wizard]

Green is good. Dual 400CMH...
the 2 colas on the left, is one plant

 

[monkey5]

Please...

Please...

Pinball, What strains are the ones pictured? Please tell..Thank you in advance! monkey5

 

[Pinball Wizard]

Pinball, What strains are the ones pictured? Please tell..Thank you in advance! monkey5

Homemade Nirvana White Widow seeds (2008)

 

[Azeotrope]

It has become apparent to me that the 3k CMH's do really well. The 150w 3k added to the 250w 4k is a really nice yield booster. The 250w 3k G.E. plus the 150w 4k cmh philips does really well.

I really think that the "green" spike in the 3k cmh's has a good effect as the light source in general is very white. I am sold on either combo...... I may run the 250w 3k GE with a 150w 10k halide next 12/12...... Just for fun. The light concentration for my little area is so high already that comparing "total output" between bulbs is mute and fine tuning the spectrum and make-up of the output is what will change results. Always fun to play!

Thanks for the very good PDFs whazzup! I had read one of them before, and they really should be read by many more.

 

[Azeotrope]

To be specific....... The GE bulb I run in 3k is this number...

CMH250/U/830/R

Been away for a while and noticed all the chatter regarding the 315w Agro. Certainly something worth looking at! That Venture CDM looks nice as well.

 

[Illumination]

1 400 watt CMH on light mover

1 400 watt CMH on light mover

2 Positronics Claustrum 68 days flower just before chop

Also per my new solartech uvb meter CMH PRODUCES NO USEFUL AMOUNT OF UVB!!! Therefore this leads me to the assumption that the full spectrum and NOT uvb is the reason for this bulb's performance. Also indicates that little if any benefit is lost if placed in a cooltube etc.

Also before you go please consider this:

I was reading a thread and someone mentioned giving Ron Paul a contribution and that they were going to give again. He or someone goes on to talk about the stoners voting for him and thats why he's getting so much support from the young crowd.

After I read that I had this bizarre idea that just might send a message to politicians like never before between now and the election.

WHAT IF EVERYONE THAT SUPPORTED THE LEGALIZATION OF MARIJUANA CONTRIBUTED $4.20 TO THE POLITICIANS CAMPAIGN THEY SUPPORT?

They say money talks and since its not a lot of money we might just get a huge number of said, "STONERS" to send a real message about how they feel about legalization thats totally undeniable and untainted by bureaucratic lobbyist bullshit!! Whatcha think "Stoners"?

I suggest we support, the man that suppots MJ... Ron Paul!
Donations ($4.20) can be made here; https://secure.ronpaul2012.com/
For $21.00 you can say it 4 times and make your voice louder. I am!

Namaste'

 

[Azeotrope]

Nice! I truely believe that the full spectrum is the deal with CMH. Overallplant health and vigor are exceptional under these bulbs. Assuming of course that the rest of the grow is dialed.....

Nice result. Enjoy!

 

[AlexTrebek]

Before I plug this in I must ask:
Can a self-ballast'ed 150w HPS run my 150w CMH bulb?

I don't want anything to blow, thanks!

 

[Azeotrope]

Nope. The 150w CMH bulbs are pulse start metal halide and you will have the wrong ignition, capacitor and arc tube voltage......

PSMH ballasts of that wattage aren't too spendy. If you search e-bay you may get luck and score a MetroLight or Hatch electronic/digital that was designed for that bulb. I have one. It is sweet 150w halides, cmh and s56(100v hps) at 144hz square wave.

Best of luck to you.

 

[AlexTrebek]

Nope. The 150w CMH bulbs are pulse start metal halide and you will have the wrong ignition, capacitor and arc tube voltage......

PSMH ballasts of that wattage aren't too spendy. If you search e-bay you may get luck and score a MetroLight or Hatch electronic/digital that was designed for that bulb. I have one. It is sweet 150w halides, cmh and s56(100v hps) at 144hz square wave.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you for helping me avoid a nuclear core meltdown in the powerplant.