Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[spurr]

Hey whazzup,

Is not the Greenpower PLUS only a lamp? That means the PPF/system watt would be less than 2.02 PPF. Please correct me if I misunderstand your point.

 

[spurr]

EDIT:

I just noticed what you added Whazzup:

We measure initially a much higher output though, and philips specs are in free hanging in ulbricht sphere. The efficiency of the plus lamp when you look at system power ~1.98 micromoles/watt system power.

That is what I thought would be the case wrt 2.02 PPF/watt of the lamp itself. That is why I'm so excited about the new 600w luminaire from Cycloptics, it has > 2 PPF/watt (that's system watt).

Thanks for chiming in, I always like to read what you and KNNA write

 

[asde²]

with the very very best ballast together with a glorious 315w 2.1ppf/w bulb, your not going to archieve more than 1.95ppf/sysw

for the mentioned greenpower hps 2.02ppf/w, 1.85ppf/sysw is a very good result

of course those are numbers considering the minimum output stated by philips.. but do some research on those leds, of course their led panel can put out more than 2ppf/sysw already when you catch a good one


what remains is your false claims..

 

[whazzup]

Where did you get your system efficiency data btw spurr? the Cycloptics Technologies website is not on-line . The article you are referring to discusses ppfd (irradiation) on the surface as far as I scanned it, not ppf. They achieved 700 micromoles m-2 s-1 but it doesn't say anything about the efficiency. The Hortistar reflector has an efficiency of 96%.

 

[spurr]

Hey Whazzup,

I got the efficiency data from the CEO of Cyclotpics for the 600 w luminaire. And the data for the 315 w luminaire can be found in the results of the testing by the USDA and a major US Uni (found within PDFs on their web site). The web site is down right now, check back soon and it should be back up.

I have no idea why the Cyloptics web site is down, it was up yesterday. On the web site, once it's back up, you can find the results from the testing of 315 w luminiare in PDF format. The 600w luminaire has not been publicly written about, before I wrote about it in this thread, AFAIK.

The efficiency of the Cycyloptics luminaire wrt % of PPF exiting the reflector is ~97%, IIRC (it could be 98% but I cannot be sure, I cannot remember exactly). The very high efficiency wrt % of PPF exiting the reflector is due to their tech they call "one bounce and out". I wrote about the "one bounce and out" tech in the Gavita-Pro thread. IIRC their goal was > 96% efficiency wrt PPF exiting the reflector.

 

[whazzup]

I can still only see the site in google cache:

The All-Bright™ is an integrated energy efficient lighting system. It combines Cycloptics One Bounce and Out© reflectors with the efficiency of the 315w Philips Elite AGRO lamp producing 1.90 PPF/w. In combination they represent the most energy efficient source of delivering the photosynthetically active-radiation (PAR) light needed to grow healthy plants in single tier plant growth chambers and rooms.

here they state that the LAMP has an efficiency of 1.9 micromoles/s/W, and that IN COMBINATION with their reflector they claim to have the most energy efficient source of PAR. Well, I'm sorry but that is not true. Even is the total output of the luminaire would be 1.9 micromoles per second per watt it would not be the most efficient luminaire.

So I am holding my comments until the site comes on-line and there is some good data.

 

[spurr]

I can still only see the site in google cache

The web site is back up, see this post I made to you here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4724992&postcount=67

here they state that the LAMP has an efficiency of 1.9 micromoles/s/W, and that IN COMBINATION with their reflector they claim to have the most energy efficient source of PAR. Well, I'm sorry but that is not true. Even is the total output of the luminaire would be 1.9 micromoles per second per watt it would not be the most efficient luminaire.

So I am holding my comments until the site comes on-line and there is some good data.

No, you're misreading what is claimed. It's 1.9 PPF/system watt on the web page. However, that's a typo, it's really 1.95 PPF/watt. And the claim re "most energy efficiency source of PAR" is for under 500 watts. These details are well explained in the specs and lit.

 

[spurr]

@ All,

Here is the SPD for the Philips Elite AGRO 315 w CMH:

@ Aside^2:

Have no fear, Cycloptics is releasing LED arrays soon too, which from their specs look very impressive

http://cycloptics.com/applications
(IIRC these are LED arrays)

• Lightstalk™ Research Greenhouse Individual Bench Supplemental Lighting (coming soon)
• CEA Lightstalk™ Hydroponic Vegetable Production Greenhouse Supplemental Lighting (coming soon)

 

[onegreenday]

Thanks for the SPD on that lamp.
It's an impressive spectrum.

I can't find an SPD for the 330 watt CDM

I'm guessing it's similar to the 315 chart.

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/pwc_li/us_en/connect/tools_literature/downloads/411058.pdf

Do you know the SPD on the 330?

thank you.

@ All,

Here is the SPD for the Philips Elite AGRO 315 w CMH:

@ Aside^2:

Have no fear, Cycloptics is releasing LED arrays soon too, which from their specs look very impressive

http://cycloptics.com/applications
(IIRC these are LED arrays)

• Lightstalk™ Research Greenhouse Individual Bench Supplemental Lighting (coming soon)
• CEA Lightstalk™ Hydroponic Vegetable Production Greenhouse Supplemental Lighting (coming soon)

 

[whazzup]

Thanks for clearing up the typos on their site.

Can you elaborate on this statement please?

Cycloptics is the future because they are using the best of everything, and they are using vertically orientated HID in a horizontal reflector. That's the BEST way to place an HID in a reflector.

Why is it your opinion that it is best to use a lamp vertically and only get indirect (reflected, if only once) light?

 

[whazzup]

Oh and I finally took the time to read the brochure a bit better.

I wonder if you share my observation:

Though the numbers seem a bit flexible (60% in the header is 60 - 75% in the table, 40% in the header is 40 - 55% in the table) and this comparison is only based on T5 and T12 (the latter is the most uneconomical way of lighting), not other HID sources, this is an extremely wide reflector:

you can switch pairs off without loss of uniformity. In the sample room you were so kind to post the lamps are quite a lot of distance from each other. Do you consider this to be a good thing for a reflector in a tent or small grow room?

 

[onegreenday]

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/img/cdm.jpg

Philips Energy Advantage CDM lamps with AllStart™ Technology

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I ordered a new CMH bulb (plus free HPS) like 3 months ago at least and still awaiting its arrival! From advancedtechlighting... sent them an email but no reply.

I am in Australia but how long does it take?? I heard there were delays but my plants really want their new lamp.

 

[onegreenday]

wondering the difference in these lamps:
Philips Energy Advantage CDM lamps with AllStart™ Technology
Philips Elite AGRO 315 w CMH

one is called Agro so I suspect it's different but the SPD chart on
the CDM appears equal or superior in all outputs of the spectrum.

 

[onegreenday]

here's a cool growth chamber with the 315 cmh.

http://www.percival-scientific.com/portals/0/docs/Percival_PGC-20ALB_Sell Sheet.pdf

they spec out the lighting in

“PAR at chamber center @ 48””
(μmoles/m²/sec)”

equals 559

 

[messn'n'gommin']

I ordered a new CMH bulb (plus free HPS) like 3 months ago at least and still awaiting its arrival! From advancedtechlighting... sent them an email but no reply.

I am in Australia but how long does it take?? I heard there were delays but my plants really want their new lamp.

This is all third-hand info, but some have said that they had to call to get their order sent. Granted, a client having to call about an overdue delivery certainly reflects badly on the seller, but they eventually got them.

hth

 

[spurr]

Thanks for clearing up the typos on their site.

Can you elaborate on this statement please?

Cycloptics is the future because they are using the best of everything, and they are using vertically orientated HID in a horizontal reflector. That's the BEST way to place an HID in a reflector.

Why is it your opinion that it is best to use a lamp vertically and only get indirect (reflected, if only once) light?

Because it means a much smaller hot spot vs horizontal oriented HID. As well as higher irradiance uniformity at canopy vs horizontal oriented HID, as long as the lamp is recessed into the reflector. As well as it's the most efficient origination wrt the math for path of photons (i.e., angle of incidence = angle of reflectance) to reduce "re-strike" (e.g., when photons strike the outside of the lamp it reduced PPF from the lamp and changes the spectral quality, re SPD). As well as other benefits. You can read about these issues in academic lit.

P.S.
It's not only Cycloptics that's the future, it's any well designed (e.g., using Photopia) luminaire that uses vertically orientated HID in a horizontal reflector. Other examples of such orientation are the "OG" luminaire from "GrowLite" and the "Luxor" luminaire from "Sunlight Supply".

 

[spurr]

here's a cool growth chamber with the 315 cmh.

http://www.percival-scientific.com/portals/0/docs/Percival_PGC-20ALB_Sell Sheet.pdf

they spec out the lighting in

“PAR at chamber center @ 48””
(μmoles/m²/sec)”

equals 559

Yup, that's a good example of a CEA ("Controlled Environment Agriculture") chamber used by plant physiologists. That CEA chamber is only $29,265 .

Cycloptics has been working with a few companies in developing their luminaire, check out the Cycloptics web site for links to those other companies.

I am excited to test the GrowLite OG (with my quantum sensor) sometime in the next two weeks (and I'm also testing their "The Hood" luminaire). I'm also excited for the 600 w luminaire from Cycloptics that will be released next summer and boasts > 2.0 PPF per watt!

The GrowLite OG can be used with CMH lamps, fwiw

 

[asde²]

Because it means a much smaller hot spot vs horizontal oriented HID. As well as higher irradiance uniformity at canopy vs horizontal oriented HID, as long as the lamp is recessed into the reflector. As well as it's the most efficient origination wrt the math for path of photons (i.e., angle of incidence = angle of reflectance) to reduce "re-strike" (e.g., when photons strike the outside of the lamp it reduced PPF from the lamp and changes the spectral quality, re SPD). As well as other benefits. You can read about these issues in academic lit.

almost legit.. even tho you bring in some points like "smaller hot spot" or "irridiance uniformity" or "as well as other benefits" which doesnt make sense (yet? go explain if you want to be a man and your sure about..) if you want to compare it to other reflectors (eg horizontal reflectors) or in general..

“PAR at chamber center @ 48””
(μmoles/m²/sec)”

equals 559

another useless "information"
(no there is no uniform black room application to test ppfd - measuring is all about who measured it, not about how good the light source is)

 

[spurr]

Yawn. Please stop. You're being a troll. And not a very effective troll at that