CBD Savior or Devil?

[Sam_Skunkman]

It took hundreds if not thousands of years for local farmers to remove all the CBD from Cannabis they grew/bred. This was done the old way trying each plant and by only saving the seeds of the best for future growing. It worked remarkably well many NLD types have little to no other Cannabinoids beside THC.
In the last decade everyone has jumped on the CBD bandwagon and thousands of folks are making hybrids with THC/CBD, they are in fact undoing the work that took a long time.
I have nothing against CBD for medical use but I do not want it in my recreational Cannabis. CBD delays onset of THC, reduces peak experiences, and makes the reduced effects last longer.
I think the whole CBD fad (like most non-medical CBD use) will end up screwing the Cannabis recreational drug genepool.
This is all ready happening in Labs, there used to be little CBD found in recreational varieties, now it is common to find .5-5% CBD in a lot of the newer recreational varieties, in a few years it will only get worse.
CBD should be kept out of recreational varieties, and it is not happeneing, the exact opposite is happening. CBD varieties should not be used for breeding to make seeds to be sold or given to non medical users, they will be used to make hybrids that enter the recreational market and genepool.
Next I expect some unthinking folks to take CBD rich varieties to the traditional Ganja areas, that will pollute the NLD genepool in any area they do this in.
I am happy to hear others views on the subject. It is obvious that CBD does help many patients, and some like it for recreational use to help control/modify high THC effects they don't like.
-SamS

So far it looks like folks are against seeing CBD in everything, some see CBD as the Devil, and most see CBD as Savior & or Devil depending how and where the CBD genes end up, use the CBD genes responsibly and avoid spreading them where unneeded seems to be the message.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Spot on Sam, so many people seem to think CBD is some funky magic ingredient, yet have not spent 2 minutes "reading the label"

Unless you are a medical user, or wish to smoke something that apparently doesn't get you stoned, avoid CBD strains like the Plague.

 

[Scrappy4]

It's not like you don't have a choice. And the resurgence of cdb, is really driven by the medical side. In my humble opinion I love cdb mixes, and yes, it does remind me of weed in the late sixties and seventies. I grow cannatonic #4 and mix it with high thc oils. Medically it allows you to use more thc oil than would be possible without cdb in the mix. And cdb completes the circle so to speak. IOW as nature intended.

Recreationally I think adding cannatonic 4 to about anything makes it more uplifting, just like weed was to me back in the day. I'd rather be up and energized, than drooling on the couch, but that's just me.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Scrappy4,
You do not understand, the genepool does not have a choice.
Those choices are made by the thousands of unthinking home breeders.
If you grow catatonic #4 and mix it with high THC oils you are not the problem, it is the folks that are making CBD/THC varieties and offering the seeds to folks that then make further varieties with CBD in them which are given to others that may or may not know if they have CBD or not and will use them for breeding. I am happy patients have CBD varieties for themselves, I am unhappy when I hear CBD is entering the THC drug gene pool as a result.
If you like CBD in your recreational weed it is likely not because it makes THC more uplifting, it does not for most people, it does not for me.
CBD is agreed to have the following effects on THC, delays onset, reduces peak experiences, and makes it last longer. Some people that get to high on THC varieties, like Original Haze a NLD variety, prefer WLD varieties, still all THC but with a different set of terpenes that alter the THC effects and reduce the mental, cerebral, psychedelic, and replace it with a stoned physical narcotic effect, both are high THC only, all that is altered is the terpenes.
BTW Most herbal Cannabis in the late sixties was THC only, the only variety with CBD was hemp, or imported dry sift hash, they all had CBD in them. What did you smoke that had CBD effects in the sixties? Hemp has very low CBD and even lower THC I doubt you smoked that. So was it hash or herbal Cannabis? From where? Almost all then was THC only NLD's.
If you really want Cannabis as nature intended without the hand of man, you do not want high THC or high CBD they are both from man not nature.
I also like being up and energized like I get from Original Haze, which has zero CBD, but does have the right terpenes to give those effects. I do not like WLD all THC varieties as they make me couch lock, it is the terpenes, with CBD they are much worse. I don't even like herbal Cannabis I prefer dry sift resin made from THC only NLD varieties.
Anyway you and others that need want CBD can get what you like without screwing up the THC drug genepool for all the folks that do not want it in their Cannabis they buy next year. Just grow a high CBD variety and then mix like stated above the genepool is untouched and no problems for the rest of us that do not want any CBD. The alternative is that within a few decades a lot of Cannabis will have CBD, nice for those that want it but a real drag for those that do not, like me and most of my friends. Think about the unintended consequences of your actions, CBD in most newer Cannabis even if most people do not want it.
-up and energized SamS
Because I do not smoke CBD, or WLD varieties with the wrong terpenes.

 

[MrBelvedere]

CBD is neither a pure savior or pure devil. Wouldn't whole multi acre fields of hemp, ruderalis, and pure Cbd varieties with male pollen flying everywhere dilute the gene pool a million times faster than a handful of breeders and chuckers? Responsible Breeders are carefully organizing, selecting, and labeling their seed stock and clones responsibly.... With open fields the damage will be more widespread in big ag areas where people grow bag seed they find in buds, and unknowingly introduce it to the gene pool... Just my 2 cents

 

[TerpeneDream]

Ok,

So what we need is access to True Breeding Cannabis. Landraces…

Release real genetics and we won't have to fuck with this cbd interbred nonsense…

Personally, I like the idea of medical, cbd seeds. As long as they are labeled as such, there is no problem what so ever. Don't like cbd strains..don't select them!

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

CBD is neither a pure savior or pure devil. Wouldn't whole multi acre fields of hemp, ruderalis, and pure Cbd varieties with male pollen flying everywhere dilute the gene pool a million times faster than a handful of breeders and chuckers? Responsible Breeders are carefully organizing, selecting, and labeling their seed stock and clones responsibly.... With open fields the damage will be more widespread in big ag areas where people grow bag seed they find in buds, and unknowingly introduce it to the gene pool... Just my 2 cents

You can list the few "Responsible Breeders" that are carefully organizing, selecting, and labeling their seed stock and clones responsibly...
And not making or selling CBD hybrids that will be misused by the pollen chucking masses? What % of seeds made today are by these folks?
Up until recently and even still today how many acres of hemp are grown in the USA each year? It could maybe come a big problem, if and when it happens, but CBD is being introduced to the THC drug gene pool by thousands of pollen chuckers and well meaning breeders all over the USA, it happens every day to new hybrids that are then used to make even more hybrids from them,
by people that have no idea what the Cannabinoid contents are.
I would worry more about the present dangers that we can effect, not the future ones we can't effect yet.
All female varieties of hemp could solve the hemp problem, no pollen at all. How do we solve the unthinking actions of pollen chuckers that add CBD back to the Cannabis THC drug genepool? And pass out the results of their work?
-SamS

 

[Ollie]

The need is a centralized go-to place, where clear spoken information about Cannabis is preached, so the information is spread and sought.

Without being an expert, the human ego might be a part of it along with the fact, that most people dont have a clue to what extend it takes to breed a true varietal.

Mixing those variables, is likely not going to prevent pollen being used wide and wild.

So its really about educating people, getting them aware that the goal they want to work towards, will get longer away while utilizing CBD vars.

A reliable and affordable 1-time Cannabinoid test with a somehow reliable accuracy would be great for the masses. If its 50% cheaper to produce 5% variable test pens, thats better than the alternative of more expensive and accurate pens which likely would not be utilized in the same way.

Just to get the idea going, to get some markers going on with the materials people got on hands, that would change alot first hand.

 

[EsterEssence]

I think it could very well be the beginning of the end of cannabis as we know it, if enough pollen gets chucked around it will be irreversible...Perfect post #...

 

[Avinash.miles]

I love CBD varieties, and have made a few crosses with them, and have given the seeds out freely to medical patients/growers who NEED the CBD (i'm told by my patients using CBD strains that smoking it relieves pain from fibromyalgia & degenerative disc disease) and to these people it may be considered a "savior".

I grow a Cannatonic x sour tsunami that is CBD rich and also has decent (9%ish) THC levels... personally i love the strain based solely on it's creamy orange flavor, and i suggest it to people who love to smoke flavorful flowers based on it's smell and smoke flavor - in that regard the CBD is irrelevant. The cannatonic x sour tsunami experience of reduced peak and delayed onset is exactly as you describe; however, i've found that many sativa smokers (those who don't want to be "glued to the couch") really enjoy the "canna-tsu".
Currently growing up a couple crosses made by rare dankness using scotts OG male (THC rich) on Otto (CBD rich made by ben holmes @ centennial seeds) and Sour tsunami. looking forward to what comes of these and have them tested upon maturity.

also, is it true that some varieties of bubba kush have higher levels of CBD? i thought i read that someplace, and I know some Bubba based strains (hillbilly armor, RD) have shown high-ish levels of CBD (5%).


I do feel the CBD craze has had bad consequences in the political world... such as all the CBD only bills in southern states passed by republicans who are truly against safe legal access to the plant and are only pandering for votes from a base that they have no intent of ever acually representing. AND there has yet to be a state that passed CBD only access then went on to grant greater broader safe legal access to cannabis plants for other medical patients OR recreational reasons - basically CBD only legislation is in no way a baby step toward greater access to the cannabis plant, instead (imo) CBD only legislation mostly helps politicians pander for votes by appearing to be somewhat pro cannabis while actually remaining truly anti.
but
as far as CBD strains being bred with... i have no problem with that - as long as people are honest about the origins and lineages of what they are working with (if it has CBD strains in its makeup, or has CBD trait tendencies) and tell whoever receives the seeds what they know truthfully about the genetics. I know that may be alot to ask of some breeders - honesty.
just because you dont' want CBD "tainting" your rec seedstock is not reason enough for EVERYONE to stop using CBD strains in crosses. I personally wouldn't consider it a "devil" for that reason alone.

imo medical use is very important and at least a couple of my patients have reported better results from CBD strains (even when they didn't know the strains were CBD rich).

I think your intentions are right, sam, to keep things appropriately separated and designated. Concerns about the genetics getting into outdoor wild populations of drug varieties, and it bringing the general potency down could certainly be a drawback (still doesn't make it any kind of devil imo).
we, as the community, should start designating MEDICAL strains with tendencies to express higher levels of CBD and do the same for high TCH "recreational" drug varieties (without intentionally doing so, this is pretty much the case currently; CBD varieties are in generally short supply and seeds are coveted and prized, definitely labeled and designated, by some of those in need). High THC lines should be kept pure by not only "someone" but all of us collectively. Contrarily, IMHO high CBD lines should also be worked to their maximum potential for the benefit of those in need of the healing properties of CBD rich cannabis.

 

[wantaknow]

I once felt the same way about people making polys ,it's hard to find ibl now

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I love CBD varieties, and have made a few crosses with them, and have given the seeds out freely to medical patients/growers who NEED the CBD (i'm told by my patients using CBD strains that smoking it relieves pain from fibromyalgia & degenerative disc disease) and to these people it may be considered a "savior".

No problem I developed the first CBD only variety I understood the value a decade before others started to think about CBD varieties.
I just don't want them undoing the work of traditional Ganja growers removing CBD from NLD Cannabis.

I grow a Cannatonic x sour tsunami that is CBD rich and also has decent (9%ish) THC levels... personally i love the strain based solely on it's creamy orange flavor, and i suggest it to people who love to smoke flavorful flowers based on it's smell and smoke flavor - in that regard the CBD is irrelevant. The cannatonic x sour tsunami experience of reduced peak and delayed onset is exactly as you describe; however, i've found that many sativa smokers (those who don't want to be "glued to the couch") really enjoy the "canna-tsu".
Currently growing up a couple crosses made by rare dankness using scotts OG male (THC rich) on Otto (CBD rich made by ben holmes @ centennial seeds) and Sour tsunami. looking forward to what comes of these and have them tested upon maturity.

also, is it true that some varieties of bubba kush have higher levels of CBD? i thought i read that someplace, and I know some Bubba based strains (hillbilly armor, RD) have shown high-ish levels of CBD (5%).

Again no problem I am happy you find CBD recreational, but I just think it is a shame if it is allowed to re-enter the NLD THC Drug genepool because of accidental unthinking, that is all.

I do feel the CBD craze has had bad consequences in the political world... such as all the CBD only bills in southern states passed by republicans who are truly against safe legal access to the plant and are only pandering for votes from a base that they have no intent of ever acually representing. AND there has yet to be a state that passed CBD only access then went on to grant greater broader safe legal access to cannabis plants for other medical patients OR recreational reasons - basically CBD only legislation is in no way a baby step toward greater access to the cannabis plant, instead (imo) CBD only legislation mostly helps politicians pander for votes by appearing to be somewhat pro cannabis while actually remaining truly anti.
but
as far as CBD strains being bred with... i have no problem with that - as long as people are honest about the origins and lineages of what they are working with (if it has CBD strains in its makeup, or has CBD trait tendencies) and tell whoever receives the seeds what they know truthfully about the genetics. I know that may be alot to ask of some breeders - honesty.

Maybe???

just because you dont' want CBD "tainting" your rec seedstock is not reason enough for EVERYONE to stop using CBD strains in crosses. I personally wouldn't consider it a "devil" for that reason alone.

It is not because I don't want CBD tainting my recreational seedstock, it is the Cannabis geenpool I am concerned about. I personally have the means to test any plant for Cannabinoid contents before using it for breeding, male or female. It is the overall genepool I am thinking about.

imo medical use is very important and at least a couple of my patients have reported better results from CBD strains (even when they didn't know the strains were CBD rich).

I think your intentions are right, sam, to keep things appropriately separated and designated. Concerns about the genetics getting into outdoor wild populations of drug varieties, and it bringing the general potency down could certainly be a drawback (still doesn't make it any kind of devil imo).

Well it is not good for sure. Like WLD being taken to Mexico, Jamaica and Morocco....

we, as the community, should start designating MEDICAL strains with tendencies to express higher levels of CBD and do the same for high TCH "recreational" drug varieties (without intentionally doing so, this is pretty much the case currently; CBD varieties are in generally short supply and seeds are coveted and prized, definitely labeled and designated, by some of those in need). High THC lines should be kept pure by not only "someone" but all of us collectively. Contrarily, IMHO high CBD lines should also be worked to their maximum potential for the benefit of those in need of the healing properties of CBD rich cannabis.

I think we are pretty much in agreement except you are not as worried as I am, I saw the explosion of WLD varieties after the 60's decade of NLD growing in the USA, by the 80's everything had WLD genes, and today almost everything in the USA is Multi-Poly-Hybrid of WLD's X NLD's be it great or not.
I would hate to see the same thing happen with CBD.
-SamS

 

[Scrappy4]

Like any other consumable product sales are driven by customer preference. No breeder can escape customer demand. If customers want high thc that's what they will get. Take it or leave it don't apply anymore in today's market.

If a breeder wants to specialize, well great! But as a consumer I want choices. And if I get one plant to replace two and still get the cannabinoid profile I want. Win win I say.

As far as poisoning the gene pool, it's up to breeders to lead by example. If you want a group of stoner breeders to act any certain way, you'll be disappointed. We're like herding jello. If you want a certain something, don't preach, do it. If its a better deal, they will come.

 

[Chunkypigs]

It took hundreds if not thousands of years for local farmers to remove all the CBD from Cannabis they grew/bred. This was done the old way trying each plant and by only saving the seeds of the best for future growing. It worked remarkably well many NLD types have little to no other Cannabinoids beside THC.

Drug cannabis is just a part of the overall cannabis gene pool and i'd love to see the figures on CBD content of hash from 100 or a thousand years ago and see how you came to this hypothesis.

In the last decade everyone has jumped on the CBD bandwagon and thousands of folks are making hybrids with THC/CBD, they are in fact undoing the work that took a long time.

in the last decade we have seen grower accessible lab testing go from zero labs to probably
50 today scattered across the recreational and medical states.
where before maybe the numbers of tests run have gone from a few hundred per year to hundreds per day now.
I suspect you have too little data about the past because testing was practically non existent and unavailable to American seed makers and growers.
the same strains people use medicinally are often the most popular recreational strains, they are clone-only and don't show signs of increasing CBD content.


I have nothing against CBD for medical use but I do not want it in my recreational Cannabis. CBD delays onset of THC, reduces peak experiences, and makes the reduced effects last longer.
I think the whole CBD fad (like most non-medical CBD use) will end up screwing the Cannabis recreational drug genepool.
This is all ready happening in Labs, there used to be little CBD found in recreational varieties, now it is common to find .5-5% CBD in a lot of the newer recreational varieties, in a few years it will only get worse.

you are using anecdotal numbers posted on sites like this not the easily checked numbers from labs in these different states.
CA
http://sclabs.com/tested.html
WA
http://analytical360.com/testresults
MI
https://www.ironlaboratories.com/current-results
MA
http://csalabs.com/lab-reports/
MA
http://mcrlabs.com/tested-products/

these 5 ( and there are more) post all their results online for anyone to sift through.
no evidence of CBD numbers approaching 0.4 consistently just a few outliers, let alone .5 to 5%!!!
Are you smoking OGKB Bro??? where do you get these numbers???

Not sure why the other thread was closed.
Here's the lab results from my GSC. Grown 100% organic,outdoors.
23.6% THC,3.5% CBD= 27.1% Cannabinoids.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/44614_491364910908388_970214309_n.jpg

these anecdotes never come with test results and even if somebody pops a cookie seed and gets a rare high CBD expression so what?

most folks who have smoked it think cookies are one of the best drug and medical varieties to appear since Chem?

where is your evidence of the gene pool getting ruined? we keep finding stronger and stronger strains,
in spite of folks experimenting with CBD for medical reasons.


CBD should be kept out of recreational varieties, and it is not happeneing, the exact opposite is happening. CBD varieties should not be used for breeding to make seeds to be sold or given to non medical users, they will be used to make hybrids that enter the recreational market and genepool.
Next I expect some unthinking folks to take CBD rich varieties to the traditional Ganja areas, that will pollute the NLD genepool in any area they do this in.
I am happy to hear others views on the subject.

I would say that we are presently a long way from being able to say definitively that recreational or drug cannabis is always better if it has less CBD.
you are a big proponent of Terpenes matter more than amount of THC and I assert that it is the same with CBD.
we may not even know the names of compounds that are responsible for the high we feel when we smoke.

I think the current state of cannabis is better than ever in the states in spite of all the experimentation being done.

the testing results of labs in the USA today deny the figures you are throwing around in the opening post.
the boots on the ground sharing of the people I talk to indicate that our most popular/fad strain GG#4 is neither polluted by CBD or any weaker than the stuff grow from your gear.

I appreciate your experience and involvement in the scene by I don't thing humans are going to fundamentally change their drug selection behavior regarding cannabis as a result of a small number of people finding CBD medically or recreationally beneficial.


from my observations growers choose what to grow based chiefly on economic factors.
not cannabiniod profiles and i suspect that was exactly the same one thousand years ago. CP in blue



-SamS

my response in blue above. CP

 

[G.O. Joe]

Has difficulty in breeding out the CBD gene that's been bred in been documented? CBD will be bred out the same way it always has been when hash wasn't the product - the seeds planted are those from the strongest females. Plants with equal amounts are obviously inferior, with a flattened high.

 

[Shcrews]

Bodhi is a breeder who is doing a pretty good job breeding separate thc and cbd lines

"Ancient OG" tested 27% THC and 0.02% CBD, "ACDC x Good Medicine" tested 16% THC and 8% CBD

anyway i think now breeding is much more sophisticated than it was hundreds of years ago so i imagine the CBD can be bred out of hybrids just as quickly as it was bred in.

 

[KiefSweat]

please explain mathematically how adding cbd ruins the genepool?

I get the old heads don't think it gets you high or its not valuable but truthfully i think your opinions matter less and less on the subject and you need to try some of the high cbd gear that is floating around the med states to make a better judgement

on the opposite how does selecting thc cultivars from mixed landrace stocks prove to be better? like was done in the past

 

[hermdog]

In my experience as a sufferer of chronic pain CBD has been a godsend.
In order to get my bone, nerve, and bowel pain to a comfortable level I have to absolutely fuck myself up on OGs/Chem Etc.
All the high CBD strains I've grown or bought always aid the THC in lessening pain and bringing the head high to where it's not head spinning.
I find I can either smoke or ingest the CBD mixed with the high THC, or after I've had my fill of THC and have the same desired effect.

I haven't had one high CBD strain that wasn't pleasurable to smoke.
And more often than not they get me as physically stoned as all the clone onlys, they just don't make my head spin for hours.

I had the pleasure of going to the Oly,Wa hempfest where dabs were free, as well as hits from a CBD pen a few tents down.
The experience of too many dabs followed by a hit from the CBD pen blew me away. My head high came to a nice, socializing level, I regained full motor skills and I was even more stoned to the bone.

Just my opinion as a rec smoker that fell into chronic illness.
I think it's indispensable, and one of the reasons marijuana is becoming more socially acceptable.

 

[EsterEssence]

I believe what Sam is talking about is how we have changed the pure strains, or eliminated, them buy taking Wld strains to Nld dominate regions, and visa versa by taking Nld to Wld regions. I surly do not want kansas no high, high in cbd sativa, in my drug Cannabis.

 

[KiefSweat]

in 2015 how many "pure" strains are available, or are we just seeing the genetic recombination in a lot of ways from a handful of parent stock.

If your buying hybrid seed you should have a vendor thats truthfully enough to tell you about the makeup of the seed, if you buy hybrid seed and work it you'll probably select for high thc just like people did 30-40 years ago.

Kansas feral strains where never bred for chemotype. While they may be cbd rich or very high cbd, its not the same as European hemp selections bred for little overall cannbinoid content to satisfy eu regs.