Can ANYONE name the poison Eagle 20 with the active ingredient Myclobutanil??

[panick503]

First post to revive a dead thread? Welcome to ic mag

 

[Only Ornamental]

Can anyone tell me how horribly this stuff effects the soil food web? I'm curious. I'd bet it's not good though.

It is a long lasting fungicide likely with a long soil retention and hence, it will kill quite a few beneficial fungi and mycorrhizae. Besides, it is highly toxic for a bunch of aquatic organisms!

...Considering the fact that this product was created by Dow Chemical should be enough for all of us who choose to make Cannabis an alternative to not only medicine, but also the development of the products associated with Industrial Cannabis.
... Do you know Eagle 20's cousin Agent Orange?

Dow and the other big corps also sponsor a wealth of academic research and highly contributed to our current understanding of plant physiology and agriculture in general and hence also to cannabis breeding. The 'devil' isn't always and only bad . BTW Agent Orange has nothing to do with triazole fungicides.
But you're right, I would stay clear of such agrochemicals for edible plants and only use them on ornamentals if really-really need be (though I prefer such with a short half-life). The low biodegradation and the chemical structure (which indicates that nasty stuff is forming upon smoking, something commonly neglected in cannabis horticulture) aren't something I would want on my plants.

First post to revive a dead thread? Welcome to ic mag

???

 

[krunchbubble]

I was at my local Hydro shop today and was more less shocked at all the support there was for the use of Eagle 20. Considering the fact that this product was created by Dow Chemical should be enough for all of us who choose to make Cannabis an alternative to not only medicine, but also the development of the products associated with Industrial Cannabis.
I asked these MMJ growers to do some research on not only the product, but also the company who's coffers they were enriching with their purchase of Eagle 20.
Being that Cannabis is at the forefront of 'change' in the USA as well as the world, should be enough for us to focus on the direction we choose to follow in our quest for a better alternative to the Toxic Chemical Environment created over the last 65 years.
With the resurgence of Organic Farming across the globe, and the resistance to Roundup ready crops as one example, I feel the need to pose this question to all past, present and future Cannabis Growers.
Is the use of Eagle 20 on ANY Cannabis crop ethical?
I feel this new generation of Pot Farmers have know idea of the Legacy of Dow, DuPont and Monsanto. Do you know Eagle 20's cousin Agent Orange?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE

 

[Avinash.miles]

fwiw
some colorado shops were recently "chastised" and had plants removed from their grows for using Eagle20 & some other products as well....

 

[Bongstar420]

Eagle20 has to be re-applied on a 21-30 day interval to outdoor crops.... that tell you its out of the plant within 30 days or the need to reapply the chemical wouldnt be there.

In other words dont be a dumbass and spray the eagle 20 on your plants when your 3-4 weeks into flower

Spray your vegging plants only..... this gives you a 2 - 3 month buffer to rid the plant of any trace elements

I'm sure the grower will tell the consumer that. And we can be sure consumers won't punish growers that do it.

Not.

Learn how to grow no spray. If you do spray, you don't deserve a premium. Pot thats been sprayed deserves the compensation rate of every other pesticide covered crop including all the organic crap. How much $ could you pull growing lettuce and tomatoes under a thouie again?

 

[Grapefruitroop]

Eagle 20??? Thats a crime!! Why dont you guys drink some round up too!
Cannabis farming must be free of this crap, if not what will distinguish us from monsanto?
My friend working for a bunch of ignorant cowboys in humbolt got really sick....... His skin was messed up....
Try to plant some Real plant, with good genetics, reinforce immune sistem with aact and trow away that crap man!!!
This shit belong to babylon.... We are tryng to help people with medicine not poison them to make money....

 

[Polygon]

If used correctly, Myclobutanil isn't nearly as detrimental as people stress that it is. I'm not advocating the usage of it, lets get that out of the way so nobody starts attacking my character before reviewing the facts. But when comparing it to tobacco in the stats listed before in the thread from the study done in 2012, if you mixed up a quart with half the recommended low dosage, which I might add is more than effective enough because it is indoors - you're looking at 70 mg total. A quart is more than enough to cover most small plants, enough to grow about 800-1000g (aka 1kg lol ) easily. If it truly does degrade to 90+ percent by 21 days in field conditions, as they proved with standards and state of the art testing, you're left with 7mg or less of active product in per kg at 21 days after spray - if not much less due to the massive growth cannabis puts on in flower, unlike tobacco and the fact that even a pint of that solution if sprayed through the right atomizer could do the job efficiently in an indoor, filtered situation.

Aka, you're left with at most 0.007mg x g of myclobutanil if you're spraying at 21 days before harvest, which nobody does. At 45+ days, the amount of myclobutanil is completely negated as the amount is well into the parts per billion or less. You get more shit from flint smoke than that, or driving behind a truck, or smelling burning plastic, or many many other things.

People argue the dangers of Naphthalene, but fail to realize that it's half life and degradation is even quicker than myclobutanil in most all conditions. And the smell/bad effects from that, negated by a carbon filter, which I might add is used industrially to scrub gases and solvents like that - naphthalene and butane are two that are very very readily absorbed fine particle materials that I can think of off the top of my head. So once again, yes, the chemical is scary in tests with rats fed 10's of mg per kg of body weight, those are the worst of the worst and you'd have to be eating a 16th of a tsp. of Eagle-20 it to really fuck yourself up hard.

The thing weird kept going on about like a record skipping was - you need to get your environment dialed in. That is true in some cases. If you grew from seed with no other cannabis having been grown around it or in that room and got PM, you need to up your environmental game. If you took in clones and got PM, it 99.99% of the time came from the mother of one of those clones and spread like a silent fart through your grow, thus, IMO, not really the fault of the grower as people should have that shit under wraps. So while we can be puritanical in a sense about that, as I have never done a run from seed that had PM issues, but definitely gotten PM issues from cloners markets in perfectly dialed in rooms running neem/SST's/No-till and all the hippie juice things that do work. Just not so much against PM from a plant that is infected sharing the same space for weeks. Even marathon runners get sick.

My personal assessment from this is that Eagle-20 is perfectly fine to use if used under certain parameters. First, those numbers on the bottle are field numbers, using the bottom of the recommended application or a little less will be fine to stave off PM unless your environment is super out of whack and your plants are very unhealthy. Second, wear a resperator rated for chemicals, gloves, and protective clothing and don't spray yourself like an idiot. Thirdly, latest you should ever spray is week 2-3, maybe 4 if you have a 12 weeker of flower. I'll catch shit for this one, but if you look at the math from tobacco (the crop with the longest degredation curve) it supports it, in most other crops, the levels drop much faster than tobacco.

I do realize that this is under field conditions, but we are adding over double the time and the fact that cannabis grows much more rapidly than tobacco and there are much much higher levels per kilogram on most everything that it's sprayed with - Unless you're drinking it, spraying it in your eyes, taking bong hits of it or being an asshole and not being safe at all - I think the actual science points for its relative safety when used correctly as apposed to what happens to sick (and even normal) immune systems when you smoke PM spores by the million.

Just my 2 cents. I welcome a civil debate where people post evidence related to the subject, the math is pretty easy to understand.

(for the record, all my clones get one treatment of eagle 20 and avid, then I start with the aloe, neem, silica, fulvic acid foliars once they mother out or I set them to be flowering ladies. I've had my meds tested at VERY reputable labs in WA and never had it come back in the danger zone, I don't care what people say, I don't have time to deal with fighting a losing battle and pulling out my hair)

 

[the gnome]

very well said

 

[Weird]

If used correctly, Myclobutanil isn't nearly as detrimental as people stress that it is. I'm not advocating the usage of it, lets get that out of the way so nobody starts attacking my character before reviewing the facts. But when comparing it to tobacco in the stats listed before in the thread from the study done in 2012, if you mixed up a quart with half the recommended low dosage, which I might add is more than effective enough because it is indoors - you're looking at 70 mg total. A quart is more than enough to cover most small plants, enough to grow about 800-1000g (aka 1kg lol ) easily. If it truly does degrade to 90+ percent by 21 days in field conditions, as they proved with standards and state of the art testing, you're left with 7mg or less of active product in per kg at 21 days after spray - if not much less due to the massive growth cannabis puts on in flower, unlike tobacco and the fact that even a pint of that solution if sprayed through the right atomizer could do the job efficiently in an indoor, filtered situation.

Aka, you're left with at most 0.007mg x g of myclobutanil if you're spraying at 21 days before harvest, which nobody does. At 45+ days, the amount of myclobutanil is completely negated as the amount is well into the parts per billion or less. You get more shit from flint smoke than that, or driving behind a truck, or smelling burning plastic, or many many other things.

People argue the dangers of Naphthalene, but fail to realize that it's half life and degradation is even quicker than myclobutanil in most all conditions. And the smell/bad effects from that, negated by a carbon filter, which I might add is used industrially to scrub gases and solvents like that - naphthalene and butane are two that are very very readily absorbed fine particle materials that I can think of off the top of my head. So once again, yes, the chemical is scary in tests with rats fed 10's of mg per kg of body weight, those are the worst of the worst and you'd have to be eating a 16th of a tsp. of Eagle-20 it to really fuck yourself up hard.

The thing weird kept going on about like a record skipping was - you need to get your environment dialed in. That is true in some cases. If you grew from seed with no other cannabis having been grown around it or in that room and got PM, you need to up your environmental game. If you took in clones and got PM, it 99.99% of the time came from the mother of one of those clones and spread like a silent fart through your grow, thus, IMO, not really the fault of the grower as people should have that shit under wraps. So while we can be puritanical in a sense about that, as I have never done a run from seed that had PM issues, but definitely gotten PM issues from cloners markets in perfectly dialed in rooms running neem/SST's/No-till and all the hippie juice things that do work. Just not so much against PM from a plant that is infected sharing the same space for weeks. Even marathon runners get sick.

My personal assessment from this is that Eagle-20 is perfectly fine to use if used under certain parameters. First, those numbers on the bottle are field numbers, using the bottom of the recommended application or a little less will be fine to stave off PM unless your environment is super out of whack and your plants are very unhealthy. Second, wear a resperator rated for chemicals, gloves, and protective clothing and don't spray yourself like an idiot. Thirdly, latest you should ever spray is week 2-3, maybe 4 if you have a 12 weeker of flower. I'll catch shit for this one, but if you look at the math from tobacco (the crop with the longest degredation curve) it supports it, in most other crops, the levels drop much faster than tobacco.

I do realize that this is under field conditions, but we are adding over double the time and the fact that cannabis grows much more rapidly than tobacco and there are much much higher levels per kilogram on most everything that it's sprayed with - Unless you're drinking it, spraying it in your eyes, taking bong hits of it or being an asshole and not being safe at all - I think the actual science points for its relative safety when used correctly as apposed to what happens to sick (and even normal) immune systems when you smoke PM spores by the million.

Just my 2 cents. I welcome a civil debate where people post evidence related to the subject, the math is pretty easy to understand.

(for the record, all my clones get one treatment of eagle 20 and avid, then I start with the aloe, neem, silica, fulvic acid foliars once they mother out or I set them to be flowering ladies. I've had my meds tested at VERY reputable labs in WA and never had it come back in the danger zone, I don't care what people say, I don't have time to deal with fighting a losing battle and pulling out my hair)

Eegle20 is now allowed in the production of medical marijuana in Washington? I

Your under the danger zone which means you still have added toxins in "allowable" amounts in a plant that is non toxin to begin with, from a toxin not allowed for use by the state because you don't have a skill set that is powerful enough to over come the problem or you simply don't give a fuck.

And pot gets you paid, imagine you had to do real work for a living

Inexcusable and pathetic and completely unnecessary

but keep it up, the value of organics tops that smoke proper are at a all time high, thanks to people with integrity like you

 

[the gnome]

feelin the hate

feelin the hate

I am the kind of human being that plays real nice with others, insane amount of empathy and genuine regard for others so somehow I get the good side of people I meet.

Inexcusable and pathetic and completely unnecessary

yeah man, that's you... Insane empathy and genuine regard

btw
you forgot *loads of modesty out your ass* in that self description

 

[Polygon]

Eegle20 is now allowed in the production of medical marijuana in Washington? I

Your under the danger zone which means you still have added toxins in "allowable" amounts in a plant that is non toxin to begin with, from a toxin not allowed for use by the state because you don't have a skill set that is powerful enough to over come the problem or you simply don't give a fuck.

And pot gets you paid, imagine you had to do real work for a living

Inexcusable and pathetic and completely unnecessary

but keep it up, the value of organics tops that smoke proper are at a all time high, thanks to people with integrity like you

I'll explain a little deeper. When I say I spray my clones, I mean clones from any other location, no questions asked. This doesn't mean they are going into flower, in fact, generally, it'll be well over 100 days before that clone is cut to veg 45+ days and flower about 70 days or so. Technically, nothing is off limits for the med market in Washington, there are really no regulations, which is why myself and many others get samples tested for everything under the sun when it comes to things that can harm people.

Also, the danger zone is anything over 0.25ppm for your information. I have never, ever, had a plant come back with any indication of myclobutanil. I'll restate for the record - the tests show up as 0ppm for any of the low doses of pesticides used hundreds of days ago on plants. I will only use the spray once during quarantine of new genetics gathered from sources around here or a less-than-careful associate, then never sprayed again. Not my mothers, not my clones for the next round, just the ones I get from outside sources. It's common sense IPM practice for a systemic disease, or in the case of AVID, for the horrible issues with broad mites everyone seems to have out here. But yeah, I'm poisoning people and I'm too big of a dummy to grow

Unnecessary is really a relative term. You have no facts, studies or really anything to go off of besides the toxicological profile of chemicals used at tens of thousands of times the amount and application rate over hundreds of days on animals compared to the under-dosed spray a plant will receive to make sure it has no systemic fungi or pest problems before being put in a 100,000$ + dollar operation. We go about treating it organically the rest of the hundreds of days that plant has to work out the material. It's grown in fully organic living soil with no bottled nutrients, chems or anything else for the period in which it is actually introduced to the open environment. I believe in the science behind 100% organic growing and do appreciate you small-time lads who have never used any extreme measures to ensure safety, but once a plant has a systemic infection, there is no way to get rid of it. That's a fact. Neem, stylet oil or any of the other organic remedies don't do shit to control PM and no matter how healthy, organic or whatever the regimen of treatment is, your other plants will be infected unless constantly treated and even then they could still be infected and just not showing the fruiting/sporulating bodies yet.

Mind you, I've never seen PM after this routine was started in the grows meant for patients - the rooms are dialed in perfectly and were assembled by myself and other technicians that have put together some of the biggest grows in Washington state. Also note, I have never had PM outbreak in those rooms, even with the many different strains that have NEVER been treated because I grew them from seed in the facility. So my growing skills and environment seem to be alright.

What in the fuck are you talking about saying I don't work for a living because I grow cannabis that has been treated once hundreds of days ago? My experience has led me to consulting on some of the biggest grows in the state - medical or 502. I don't pretend to know what you do, and insinuating I don't work because I have done the math based on multiple studies to disprove that a chemical would be harmful outside of a certain range of days is a stretch without any data yourself. I have testing from labs that run the 502 testing (very strict) to support my point. My skill set is more than fine, you seem to be missing the point, as you have this entire thread with your puritanical rhetoric. Another funny thing to note is that most of the samples being rejected from the legal market out here are samples that have high yeast, mold, and bacteria count. Especially... wait for it... waiiittt fooorrrr iiitttt. - Powdery fucking Mildew and anaerobic bacteria left on the plants from hopelessly trying to treat it.

So, once again, we're left with your moral stance, and facts. In the face of facts, you degrade to insulting peoples character, posting no facts or really anything other than the loop you've been on. I don't think you've ran more than 15 1kw at a time. It's very good that you've never had to use any of the aforementioned products, seriously, I commend you. I never did either before the reality of running 100,000+ watt grows where you're getting genetics from outside sources and growing them in someone's gigantic investment. I did my research and I was proven correct when the testing has come through.

You can't bully people into thinking your way, especially when they have put more research and hard data compiled by experience, strict testing of their meds, studies and published research papers into their argument. It's hard to argue with someone who misspells half a dozen words in their posts, let alone someone who completely rejects data because they lack the mental facilities to do the simple math to show that you're left with sub microgram levels if any residue left over after correct care is taken.

I'm not going to call you names, I wanted a real debate of facts - please, show me data in which cannabis hundreds of days after receiving milligram amounts of myclobutanil will still have residue left over. Better yet, show me one on really anything (food crop, ect) that over 150+ days after application, myclobutanil is still in the plant in any way... You won't be able to find it and you'll come back with the same repeating-record stance calling me a poor grower, saying I don't work and then topping it off by assuming I would ever be okay with poisoning everyone. If you can't provide that, you've officially lost this debate as you have nothing to support your point.

Just for the fun of it all and because I have access to some of the best testing in the nation for cannabis - I went to a friends house and we put a plant that is 13 days into flower in a separate tent/ventilation setup from everything else and sprayed it with the dosage rate of eagle 20 that is used commonly on the aforementioned 'outside clones'. We have really nothing to lose if the plant is toxic, it will be trashed immediately and I'd be very interested to see the PPM left over - but we have much to gain if the testing comes back nil. I'll let y'all know. This is how real hard science and fact is cemented - putting your money where your mouth is and getting the data needed. I'm going to the extreme by doing this in flowering, but only to show what even irresponsible actions will yeild in terms of quantitative data.



EDIT - You actually negative repped me for bringing up different points after offering nothing other than personal stance and insults aimed at my character?! Jesus buddy, really are a child for being a 35+ year old man, Weird. A perfect example of your own phrase - "Inexcusable and pathetic and completely unnecessary" - Wow...

 

[the gnome]

delusional?

delusional?

You actually negative repped me for bringing up different points after offering nothing other than personal stance and insults aimed at my character?! Jesus buddy, really are a child for being a 35+ year old man, Weird. A perfect example of your own phrase - "Inexcusable and pathetic and completely unnecessary" - Wow...

don't feel bad, he did me too.
guilt by association I guess

polygon, you offered up an excellent discourse for
using of chems like E20,
unfortunately there's a fringe sect in the organic crowd that is as ideological as they come.
doesn't matter when residual chems are in the billionths and you'll ingest far more bad stuff driving behind a diesel semi with your windows rolled up.....
you(and me far liking your post) are evil incarnate to weird
reminds me of those deluded nut jobs showing up at the chicken shak, crying, slobbering themselves over analogies over their pet chickens, and people eating their lunch that were Inexcusable and pathetic ......

 

[Avinash.miles]

class action lawsuit filled against livwell dispensary for using eagle 20.... story in denver post about it.

 

[Lyfespan]

i have been using eagle20 here in a different application. i run a warehouse grow with a few swamp koolers for humidity supply, this is where i have found the eagle 20 works best.

when installing new pads for the summer, i also put in 1 oz on my 5000s, circulate through and never do i have to worry about shit, its not on my plants it dissipates in 24 hours of running and it solves the root issue, instead of running around treating problems derived from the root issue. i have only seen PM once in my space this was my thought i acted upon and i havent seen PM since, even with humidity hitting the 80% mark.

 

[Polygon]

class action lawsuit filled against livwell dispensary for using eagle 20.... story in denver post about it.

I read about that. If there were detectable amounts of myclobutanil in the plant in pre-testing and they sold it knowing that - that is very worth suing over. Although, I'd be very interested to see the PPM's they were giving out, from the way the media is taking it, it seems like there was an abundance of it and if it was quantifiable by lab testing, that is wrong and even I am 100% against that.

But, also, do keep in mind that bringing up a lawsuit doesn't mean that there was actual pesticide residue on the plants as of today, there is no available tests or court documentation to prove their case - only the lawsuit because it is illegal to not label the product with pesticides used or to use that particular pesticide in Colorado and/or their meds tested dirty somewhere. We all know that people can sue over literally anything under the sun as long as a lawyer will take their money. I will also bet that 90+% of the major operations in Colorado have used this product at some point or another, even if it's how I described. A lot of these places source their genetics from many places so they probably all treated them before bringing them in, it's pretty much the norm for large industrial grows IME.

I can see Weird coming out now to scrutinize my comment above ^^ but, I will reiterate once again, I don't condone unsafe practices with it unless you're doing so for experimentation purposes, like lab-rats aaaaannndddd 0ppm of any pesticide has shown up in any tests I've ever gotten on my meds, I would never run a treated plant into flower until at least 100 days after spraying with less than half the recommended low dosage per gallon, and only on incoming genetics to become mothers. Also, with every crop it's tested, if anything came back it'd be scrapped. So lets not even start on that.

 

[watts]

On Monday, two marijuana users in Colorado filed a lawsuit against LivWell, a Denver pot business, which they say has used an unsafe pesticide – a fungicide called Eagle 20 EW – to grow their product. Eagle 20 EW is used on some consumable products but is considered unhealthy when heated and is banned for use on tobacco.

 

[Polygon]

Here is the article with the test results.

Those are for concentrates, so the company may have not thought there was much wrong. Still, it's obvious that the company sprayed late in flower IMO, in no other crop would it be that present, including tobacco had they grown it for a full 60-70 day cycle after 60+ days from spray, or any other safe measure. We've tested BHO made from our trim and it too tested at 0.00ppm for all three of those.

 

[Babbabud]

As much energy as is put into defending eagle 20 a guy could have his room in order so PM just wont grow . I havent seen it in many years .

 

[Avinash.miles]

As much energy as is put into defending eagle 20 a guy could have his room in order so PM just wont grow . I havent seen it in many years .

:
you know what else works great against PM? and it never has to be applied in a sprayer, non chemical, non biological, non toxic, no residual? healthy plants.

that being said....

i can totally see what polygon is saying both about how suing is just suing it doesn't mean anything really AND about industrial large grows using it in "permissable" or "excusable" manners.
when that much $ is on the line, it may be a neccessary evil when new genetics are "coming in". IMO running eagle on new clones coming in of new genetics to become mothers and all plants becoming mothers might be an allowable use (might not in the eyes of the state tho).

 

[sdd420]

Avinash is the voice of reason I agree with . I say when it is legal as in Co or Ore by all means test the hell out of it. You know we are being taxed on it lets make it safe for the consumer. Peace sdd