Building a Home Made LED
- Thread starter tenthirty
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i have seen them which are strips and which are a circular format such as might be used to put together a 'light bulb' type assembly ~but they tend to be a little costly for what they are
just speculating that a more suitable 'multi diode PCB' could be offered than what is available
i only put together a couple small projects tinkering ~1 is through-hole the other is 4 single lumiled rebels on star PCB and single heatsinks w/ an xitanium driver
just speculating that a more suitable 'multi diode PCB' could be offered than what is available
i only put together a couple small projects tinkering ~1 is through-hole the other is 4 single lumiled rebels on star PCB and single heatsinks w/ an xitanium driver
^
I can try and help you out,
you have the capacity trust me.. I didn't know shit a month ago, and here I am, I have 2 panels, and planning out my third as we speak..
so first is first..
you need some money, there is ways to cut corners, but these panels can costs depending on what quality / fit and finish you like, and what your overall goals / expectations are, as a panel is built to your liking / wants / needs
second, as I said you need a end goal in mind.. you want a veg panel? clone panel? flower panel???
third we need to know spacing
I can try and help you out,
you have the capacity trust me.. I didn't know shit a month ago, and here I am, I have 2 panels, and planning out my third as we speak..
so first is first..
you need some money, there is ways to cut corners, but these panels can costs depending on what quality / fit and finish you like, and what your overall goals / expectations are, as a panel is built to your liking / wants / needs
second, as I said you need a end goal in mind.. you want a veg panel? clone panel? flower panel???
third we need to know spacing
Thank you Habeeb. I'd use the panels for veg and flowering. Could be two separate panels, or simply add a red panel to the veg panel and run two panels overhead.
Looking at a 3x3 or 4x4 footprint.
I'm not concerned about the cost and would not want to cut corners. I can solder circuit boards.
48 hours ago I was looking at Plasma, so the LED is all new to me.
Looking at a 3x3 or 4x4 footprint.
I'm not concerned about the cost and would not want to cut corners. I can solder circuit boards.
48 hours ago I was looking at Plasma, so the LED is all new to me.
^
how much veg time vs/ flower time? is it just growing out to reach a good size to flip to flower? or full on veg
you need fully decide on a size space as heatsinks / led is all sized to an area..
don't worry man, were gonna get you where you need if you think LED is for you
here's some ideas on heatsinks, like 10:30 uses smaller bars, I like bigger bars...
1
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3
how much veg time vs/ flower time? is it just growing out to reach a good size to flip to flower? or full on veg
you need fully decide on a size space as heatsinks / led is all sized to an area..
don't worry man, were gonna get you where you need if you think LED is for you
here's some ideas on heatsinks, like 10:30 uses smaller bars, I like bigger bars...
1
2
3
I would just go with max heatsinks. They look great. I'm also trying to help a friend with a 2' deep closet grow. 4' wide. 8' tall. Exhaust from second floor to outside. So a low heat solution for him = LED. So I was going to build his also, thinking I'd just make two of everything. (?)
For myself, I'm building a brand new grow area, so I'll have separate veg and flower rooms with lots of space. I'll be walking around the plants - no tight quarters. All new construction.
So separate panels for veg and flower sounds best. My friend can simply change out the veg panel for the flower panel.
If I'm going to do this, I prefer to overkill wherever possible. I'm not looking at cost.
Should I create a separate thread?
I really appreciate your insights.
For myself, I'm building a brand new grow area, so I'll have separate veg and flower rooms with lots of space. I'll be walking around the plants - no tight quarters. All new construction.
So separate panels for veg and flower sounds best. My friend can simply change out the veg panel for the flower panel.
If I'm going to do this, I prefer to overkill wherever possible. I'm not looking at cost.
Should I create a separate thread?
I really appreciate your insights.
Rrog, something to keep in mind with LEDs is that most of what you have read is bullshit. They are potentially able to be more efficient than HIDs, but the claims of 2x - 4x are wildly overstated. I think that most of us have found that you can pretty equivalent results at somewhere around 70% (+/-) of the HID wattage.
The other thing that sounds like it might be entering the equation right now is the idea that LEDs don't make any heat. They do. They are roughly similar to HIDs in that there isn't that much difference in the relative efficiencies of either light source - they both range from 20-30% efficient at converting electricity to light, and the rest of the power gets converted to heat. Where LEDs do have the advantage on heat is: a) the 30% savings in the overall power means that much less being converted to heat, and b) they don't create infra-red heat like HID lamps do. HID lamps "cast" IR and heat up the surrounding objects - this isn't a factor with LEDs. The downside is that it is sometimes more difficult to do the heat extraction on LEDs because they don't lend themselves well to devices like vented hoods.
Starting your own thread would probably be a good idea - I think that you are about to get caught up in the rip-tide of LED technology! It would also be good to document this for others.
The other thing that sounds like it might be entering the equation right now is the idea that LEDs don't make any heat. They do. They are roughly similar to HIDs in that there isn't that much difference in the relative efficiencies of either light source - they both range from 20-30% efficient at converting electricity to light, and the rest of the power gets converted to heat. Where LEDs do have the advantage on heat is: a) the 30% savings in the overall power means that much less being converted to heat, and b) they don't create infra-red heat like HID lamps do. HID lamps "cast" IR and heat up the surrounding objects - this isn't a factor with LEDs. The downside is that it is sometimes more difficult to do the heat extraction on LEDs because they don't lend themselves well to devices like vented hoods.
Starting your own thread would probably be a good idea - I think that you are about to get caught up in the rip-tide of LED technology! It would also be good to document this for others.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=5524769#post5524769
This is really exciting. Thanks very much. I will pass along what I learn to others
This is really exciting. Thanks very much. I will pass along what I learn to others
Happy New Year!
Sorry for being away, on Xmas I was not able to tender them or participate in the forum all I would have wanted!
Here are my girls, this is their 10th week.
As you can see they all look lush and healthy.
The lens-less XM-L penetration is more than fine, as you can see here 12" shoots have well developed buds down to the screens:
I don't have any yield estimation, hope it will be next to 1gr/watt.
Budshots:
Atomic Haze:
Somango:
Amnesia Haze:
How do you see them chop-wise? the Somango looks like being close to chop day...
Sorry for being away, on Xmas I was not able to tender them or participate in the forum all I would have wanted!
Here are my girls, this is their 10th week.
As you can see they all look lush and healthy.
The lens-less XM-L penetration is more than fine, as you can see here 12" shoots have well developed buds down to the screens:
I don't have any yield estimation, hope it will be next to 1gr/watt.
Budshots:
Atomic Haze:
Somango:
Amnesia Haze:
How do you see them chop-wise? the Somango looks like being close to chop day...
Last grow I had one 312w HOT5 tent during veg and most of flowering. I dropped to 216 w during the last 3 weeks
My LED tent was ~ 80w- a mix of a 90w ufo + maybe 20 watts of supplement screw bulb leds (CW + NW + WW). As we know mfgs way overstate actual watts, I'm think 70w for the ufo, though watts is not as critical as lumens, and especially CRI
Strains were not the same, but overall yield comparisons were similar enough to call it a draw
View attachment 202362 View attachment 202363
My LED tent was ~ 80w- a mix of a 90w ufo + maybe 20 watts of supplement screw bulb leds (CW + NW + WW). As we know mfgs way overstate actual watts, I'm think 70w for the ufo, though watts is not as critical as lumens, and especially CRI
Strains were not the same, but overall yield comparisons were similar enough to call it a draw
View attachment 202362 View attachment 202363
request
request
hello,First of all I want to say thanks for such a cool thread and very helpful discussions.
I am running my first micro grow (scrog) with CFLs atm and thinking to change to LED to get more vertical space. And for playing around
Now after reading and researching I still have problems to decide the quantity (or watts) of LED I need for my footprint. Not to forget I am a complete noob in electrics anyway.
Below you can see my situation(AK47, 40 days into flower):
footprint: appr. 20cm x 30cm (scrog-net)
vertical height(from scrog-net to box ceiling w/o lighting): appr. 35cm
Atm I am using 4 CFLs (4000K+2700K) and a diy filter and I have probs to get my temp below 28°C(82F). Two serial outtake fans are sucking the air out with 9V (12V won't be stealth anymore).
I know,...due to that is my first grow I went 12/12 too early because I feared the stretch, which wasn't that big. But beside a few small defs the grow is going well so far and I am satisfied with the lady and the quality....
Now to the lighting:
These components would be in my mind:
2x 3 x CREE XM-L T3 on round PCB ==> 2x6W, 2340lm(max), warm white
2x 3 x CREE XM-L T5 on round PCB ==> 2x6W, 2535 lm(max), normal white
1x 3 x CREE XM-L U2 on round PCB ==> 1x6W, 3120 lm(max), cold white
2x Meanwell Power Supply 700mA (9-30V) IP67
1x Massive black anodized Cooling Element ==> 150 x 150 x 40mm
...with active cooling
So these are my questions which I hope one of you pro's can answer them:
1) how many LEDs (watts) are really needed for this small footprint´?
2) my setting would put out a lot of lumens which is much more(about 3x) then my cfls do, and I fear that the leaves get bleached.
3) do I need to dim the WW during veg. or dim the cw during flower? if no I wont need to build in a pot (good thing).
4) I want to go as close to the canopy as possible (ideal 5cm) or is the penetration of the LED good enough for my scrog if fixed near the seiling?(LEDs 125°)
5) Should I use single LEDs for a better light distribution? I would say no, because a cone of 125° is pretty decent and the sweet spot should be at around 5 cm below the LEDs on the heatsink above.
electrical questions:
-) which cable thickness should I use?
-) can I put LEDs with different wattages in one line (eg. 2x 6W and 1x 0,6W blue) or do all the LEDs need the same wattage?
Please feel free correct my assumtions or suggest other combinations of LEDs in case you think they would fit to my box better.
Thanks a lot for your help and keep on discussing and showing your settings.
Kuk
(long time reader)
...Pls. don't flame my setting as I have limited space and need to grow stealthy and small quanties ore ok. I am more for variation and playing arround with ladies...
request
hello,First of all I want to say thanks for such a cool thread and very helpful discussions.
I am running my first micro grow (scrog) with CFLs atm and thinking to change to LED to get more vertical space. And for playing around
Now after reading and researching I still have problems to decide the quantity (or watts) of LED I need for my footprint. Not to forget I am a complete noob in electrics anyway.
Below you can see my situation(AK47, 40 days into flower):
footprint: appr. 20cm x 30cm (scrog-net)
vertical height(from scrog-net to box ceiling w/o lighting): appr. 35cm
Atm I am using 4 CFLs (4000K+2700K) and a diy filter and I have probs to get my temp below 28°C(82F). Two serial outtake fans are sucking the air out with 9V (12V won't be stealth anymore).
I know,...due to that is my first grow I went 12/12 too early because I feared the stretch, which wasn't that big. But beside a few small defs the grow is going well so far and I am satisfied with the lady and the quality....
Now to the lighting:
These components would be in my mind:
2x 3 x CREE XM-L T3 on round PCB ==> 2x6W, 2340lm(max), warm white
2x 3 x CREE XM-L T5 on round PCB ==> 2x6W, 2535 lm(max), normal white
1x 3 x CREE XM-L U2 on round PCB ==> 1x6W, 3120 lm(max), cold white
2x Meanwell Power Supply 700mA (9-30V) IP67
1x Massive black anodized Cooling Element ==> 150 x 150 x 40mm
...with active cooling
So these are my questions which I hope one of you pro's can answer them:
1) how many LEDs (watts) are really needed for this small footprint´?
2) my setting would put out a lot of lumens which is much more(about 3x) then my cfls do, and I fear that the leaves get bleached.
3) do I need to dim the WW during veg. or dim the cw during flower? if no I wont need to build in a pot (good thing).
4) I want to go as close to the canopy as possible (ideal 5cm) or is the penetration of the LED good enough for my scrog if fixed near the seiling?(LEDs 125°)
5) Should I use single LEDs for a better light distribution? I would say no, because a cone of 125° is pretty decent and the sweet spot should be at around 5 cm below the LEDs on the heatsink above.
electrical questions:
-) which cable thickness should I use?
-) can I put LEDs with different wattages in one line (eg. 2x 6W and 1x 0,6W blue) or do all the LEDs need the same wattage?
Please feel free correct my assumtions or suggest other combinations of LEDs in case you think they would fit to my box better.
Thanks a lot for your help and keep on discussing and showing your settings.
Kuk
(long time reader)
...Pls. don't flame my setting as I have limited space and need to grow stealthy and small quanties ore ok. I am more for variation
and playing arround with ladies...1. For that space 18-20 Watts should do it. That will give you 300W/m^2
2. With naked Crees I get bleach spots at 5 cm away or less. I have my arrays adjustable to raise and lower with the plants and keep the LEDs about 10 cm. away.
3. I wouldn't bother dimming anything with an all white LED setup.
4. Refer to #2.
5. My preference is using single LEDs in a staggered pattern, about 1.5 cm. apart for the best light distribution. With the small area you are using though, the cool white in the center, and throw the warm and neutral whites in opposite corners. That should be fine and give complete coverage. Just keep the light up high enough so there are no dark spots and all light beams overlap.
Cable thickness is all based on current carrying capacity. For 700mA you are fine with 30 AWG, but I would advise on at least 22 AWG so it is more durable and easier to work with. I used 26 AWG solid core to connect from LED to LED on the heatsink, then on each end of the string I soldered the 22 AWG stranded on and ran those to a Molex 'Mini-Fit Jr.' style connector. The mating Molex then runs to the driver. Having the light dis-connectable makes maintenance much easier.
Now for the driver selection:
You need to know the total operating Voltage needed and total Wattage at the current level you want to run.
3up-CREE XM-L T3 x 2 = 2x6W = 12W; 2x8.7V = 17.4V@700mA
3up-CREE XM-L T5 x 2 = 2x6W = 12W; 2x8.7V = 17.4V@700mA
3up-CREE XM-L U2 x 1 = 1x6W = 6W; 1x8.7V = 8.7V@700mA
Your driver is 20W, 30V, and 700mA for ratings.
Based on this you should just get another '3x CREE XM-L U2'. Then you could run 3 on each driver giving you 17.4V + 8.7V= 26.1V@700mA and 12W + 6W = 18W@700mA.
Adding the extra 3x LED will provide more coverage also, just place them equidistant on the heatsink and alternate colors so no two are right next to each other.
You could even get away with adding another single LED to each driver also since they run at ~3.2V@700mA. That would then give you 29.3V @ 20W which will use all of the driver's power.
I ran the numbers and the heat sink you selected will be fine, especially if you actively cool. At 100cm^2 per Watt, that sink should do 22W passively.
Hope that helps some.
2. With naked Crees I get bleach spots at 5 cm away or less. I have my arrays adjustable to raise and lower with the plants and keep the LEDs about 10 cm. away.
3. I wouldn't bother dimming anything with an all white LED setup.
4. Refer to #2.
5. My preference is using single LEDs in a staggered pattern, about 1.5 cm. apart for the best light distribution. With the small area you are using though, the cool white in the center, and throw the warm and neutral whites in opposite corners. That should be fine and give complete coverage. Just keep the light up high enough so there are no dark spots and all light beams overlap.
Cable thickness is all based on current carrying capacity. For 700mA you are fine with 30 AWG, but I would advise on at least 22 AWG so it is more durable and easier to work with. I used 26 AWG solid core to connect from LED to LED on the heatsink, then on each end of the string I soldered the 22 AWG stranded on and ran those to a Molex 'Mini-Fit Jr.' style connector. The mating Molex then runs to the driver. Having the light dis-connectable makes maintenance much easier.
Now for the driver selection:
You need to know the total operating Voltage needed and total Wattage at the current level you want to run.
3up-CREE XM-L T3 x 2 = 2x6W = 12W; 2x8.7V = 17.4V@700mA
3up-CREE XM-L T5 x 2 = 2x6W = 12W; 2x8.7V = 17.4V@700mA
3up-CREE XM-L U2 x 1 = 1x6W = 6W; 1x8.7V = 8.7V@700mA
Your driver is 20W, 30V, and 700mA for ratings.
Based on this you should just get another '3x CREE XM-L U2'. Then you could run 3 on each driver giving you 17.4V + 8.7V= 26.1V@700mA and 12W + 6W = 18W@700mA.
Adding the extra 3x LED will provide more coverage also, just place them equidistant on the heatsink and alternate colors so no two are right next to each other.
You could even get away with adding another single LED to each driver also since they run at ~3.2V@700mA. That would then give you 29.3V @ 20W which will use all of the driver's power.
I ran the numbers and the heat sink you selected will be fine, especially if you actively cool. At 100cm^2 per Watt, that sink should do 22W passively.
Hope that helps some.
thanks T_B_M for your clear advices.
I think I mixed something up but that doesnt influence your calculations. I wanted to go the 2ww:2nw:1cw direction.
Other question:
Shall I switch-off the cw-line after 3rd week of flower like I exchange my cw-cfls to ww-cfls at that time? However I will loose some red-spectrum as well...and I asume we don't want that, right?
My biggest concern is that I need to keep low due to my limited vertical space...so stretch should be limited as far as possible. Therefore the cw and the plan to dim the ww during veg and early flower.
Or...can I go full-power/full-spectrum the whole life cycle(starting from rooted clones)?...would be awesome...
In this case I would go for 11x2W XM-Ls(5:4:2) and a 200x150x25mm heatsink(R(th) 0.95 K/W, w. fan) on one 30V driver (=31,9V, possible?).
This would give me a more even light distribution.
I know it sounds a bit weird to grow at this size but I like the idea of growing in micro/nano environments where things can change/go bad fast. And its always fun to have guests sitting right beside the box not knowing
I think I mixed something up but that doesnt influence your calculations. I wanted to go the 2ww:2nw:1cw direction.
Other question:
Shall I switch-off the cw-line after 3rd week of flower like I exchange my cw-cfls to ww-cfls at that time? However I will loose some red-spectrum as well...and I asume we don't want that, right?
My biggest concern is that I need to keep low due to my limited vertical space...so stretch should be limited as far as possible. Therefore the cw and the plan to dim the ww during veg and early flower.
Or...can I go full-power/full-spectrum the whole life cycle(starting from rooted clones)?...would be awesome...
In this case I would go for 11x2W XM-Ls(5:4:2) and a 200x150x25mm heatsink(R(th) 0.95 K/W, w. fan) on one 30V driver (=31,9V, possible?).
This would give me a more even light distribution.
I know it sounds a bit weird to grow at this size but I like the idea of growing in micro/nano environments where things can change/go bad fast. And its always fun to have guests sitting right beside the box not knowing
You will need it all during flower. Don't dim anything. Yes, keep the lights as low as you can (adjustable preferred) in order to provide the best penetration.
Stretch is mainly a genetic trait more than spectrum. I have had both stretchy and squat plants in the same light environment with the same distance below the lights. I went through 5-6 strains to narrow down to a White Widow strain which stays squat and a Master Kush strain that grows nice and squat. Veg takes a bit longer, but you get more bud per plant during flower with minimal stretch. Just get a strain that grows well in your space.
11x2W XM-L will work fine. Each LED will be driven a little lower than 2W, but not noticeable.
Stretch is mainly a genetic trait more than spectrum. I have had both stretchy and squat plants in the same light environment with the same distance below the lights. I went through 5-6 strains to narrow down to a White Widow strain which stays squat and a Master Kush strain that grows nice and squat. Veg takes a bit longer, but you get more bud per plant during flower with minimal stretch. Just get a strain that grows well in your space.
11x2W XM-L will work fine. Each LED will be driven a little lower than 2W, but not noticeable.
At just a fifth of their maximum output power. Sound like a waste to me. With proper cooling he could easily achieve more PAR lumens per square foot if driven at 3/5 or even 4/5 of the max power.
Since he is height restricted, running that high will probably bleach the leaves when the plants get taller.
The OSRAM Oslon SSL are an alternative and would run well at 700mA, which would be cheaper.
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