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Broad mites: ID and Organic Antidotes that work!

leadsled

Member
Was already mentioned once. But probably being worth mentioned again.

In addition to pfr-97, there is another biomiticide, called grandevo.

Grandevo is made by marrone innovations same company that makes regalia
Growers are reporting back with good results with it. Was already one post in this thread.

Mikell: From what I can find on google scolar.
Yes mites can in the soil if there is not a host.
That is yet another reason to use predatory nematodes.

I personally know of one grower in the central valley that found them coming in on some rooting plugs. They were left outside in an open box or not stored properly.

Here is a link I found that outlines there hibernation (a.k.a. diapause)
Link
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/14-013.htm

Get the biology going if your fighting the war with those methods.

Broad mites that hibernate in the soil will be susceptible to attack by predatory beneficial nematodes.

One greenhouse grower wiped them out with predator mites.

Amblyseius andersoni
Amblyseius cucumeris
Amblyseius californicus
Amblyseius swirskii

He thought he had tmv and then realized what was going on.

50YardLine: Sap ph should have been 6.4 not 6.3!
But seriously the chemicals defeated the whole purpose of what your trying to do.

The miticides MAY have disrupted the plants metabolism for life.
Have seen an grower apply merit 75 for prevention of root aphids to then see his mites attacked by mites.

A plants metabolism can switch from building proteins to then breaking down and catalyzing proteins when you apply a miticide or fungicide.

Check out the book Healthy Crops.
The theory of trophobiosis is this: that plants are made immune to attack to the extent that they lack the nutritional factors that parasites require for their development. The alternate theory of insect infestation is based on the possible presence of substances (phytoalexines) that are toxic or repellent to the insect. Chaboussou determined that it is the former theory that is true. Restating this theory has the virtue of impressing it as it goes against all the teaching of the agro/chemical-industry. This says Lutzenberger, may be the most important discovery in agricultural chemistry since Liebig.

IMHO, If you expect things to work with nature you have to go 100% in.

I say this with respect and care for you and yours. Please do not take it any other way.

p.s. to anyone that may use regalia. It is a japanese knotweed extract.
Concerns were expressed about adrenal overload from overuse.
Studies show growers getting excellent results when using 2-3 times per season or just at transplants.
So just a heads up for those that purchase and use it. Less may be more. SAR/ISR is good but when is it too much???

Have used at each transplant with excellent results. But have not gone heavy with it. By applying weekly or anything.
The more details the better.


Kindness!
 
@Leadsled Just an fyi, I didn't go nuclear for 30 days after the infestation started. Before it started I was using organic preventives. In that time, my ph and sap where on point. I know it's 6.4, but 6.3 is close, lol. I did heat treatments, along with og bio war and neem for 30 days. During this time I concentrated on proper nutrition as well. It would take me a good 10 minutes to find a live bug at the end of the 30 days, but that was when flowering was about to begin. I figured chems would have less overall damage than a russet outbreak. I think I made the right decision for my personal situation.

Tested my flowers, zero chems in the final product also. Like I said before, if anybody is actually interested in my battle, check out garden of eden thread at the farm.

I just ordered up the book you recommended, thank you.
 

milkyjoe

Senior Member
Veteran
Do you have the citations for those claims...or just kempf's claims in that one seminar. I hate how he fails to cite or explain the science.

Only Ornamental points out sar responses do use energy and hurt yield...isr does not until it flips to sar. Even john seems to acknowlege this with sea shield which uses chitosan to induce isr...why would he sell the product?

Using chems ain't something I ever want to do. But I did and things seem good once again
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Mikell: From what I can find on google scolar.
Yes mites can in the soil if there is not a host.
That is yet another reason to use predatory nematodes.

I personally know of one grower in the central valley that found them coming in on some rooting plugs. They were left outside in an open box or not stored properly.

Here is a link I found that outlines there hibernation (a.k.a. diapause)
Link
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/14-013.htm

Get the biology going if your fighting the war with those methods.

Broad mites that hibernate in the soil will be susceptible to attack by predatory beneficial nematodes.

One greenhouse grower wiped them out with predator mites.

Amblyseius andersoni
Amblyseius cucumeris
Amblyseius californicus
Amblyseius swirskii

I see no reference in that link to broad mite diapause. Perhaps I missed it, the site is badly organized re: information relevant to each pest is mixed up with every other. Mobile browsing may be mucking it up.

Nematodes is also a first. Have you a link to where you read that? I'll poke around later on a PC, I didn't see much from a light search.

Broad mites are notorious hitchhikers but I've yet to see any evidence they can survive in the absence of live plant matter.

I'm an ardent skeptic, and have nurtured it to an art reading forums over the past few years. I rarely mean anything personally and it's usually obvious when I do.
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
Re: 100% humidity @ 110 degrees. I don't know about this, but I do know that my humidity was 60-70%, and all BMs were wiped out at 120 F. If you read a number of sites referencing tarsinomidae, you will see temperature recommendations for hot water treatment of anywhere from 110 to 118, and everything in between. Humidity was not a factor at 120F.
Hot water treatments don't work on Cannabis in my experience. I tried it and it ruined the plants. However, I am now seeing plenty of references to hot air treatments. None of these were there years ago when I first did a heat treatment. So now, there is plenty of information on it, confirming that is does work, which is no surprise.
As far as how you get them? If you are in California, or any other agricultural area, they are literally everywhere outside. They move on wind currents, and they travel on white flies. If you have white flies, good chance they are carrying Bms. Pets can carry them. They can get on your clothes. Clones are notorious for them. People selling clones are spreading them, as they don't know the clones are infested.
 
Do you have the citations for those claims...or just kempf's claims in that one seminar. I hate how he fails to cite or explain the science.

Only Ornamental points out sar responses do use energy and hurt yield...isr does not until it flips to sar. Even john seems to acknowlege this with sea shield which uses chitosan to induce isr...why would he sell the product?

Using chems ain't something I ever want to do. But I did and things seem good once again

I think you were talking to leadsled, and I was at that seminar. Were you?

I can say from when I sprayed the chems, my plants did a little slump and curl. All the leaves started to throw three leaves. Broke out of it about 2 weeks later, but for sure the chems effected the natural growth of my plants.
 

milkyjoe

Senior Member
Veteran
Yea...but was it forever? That is the part I don't believe.

Think about john's own story. Heavy chem user, switched and plants seem to have recovered. The cherry farmer still uses fungicides.

Yes my plants suffered from the chems. No doubt they were stunted. My soil suffered...I had to work hard to rebuild my microbes (but that taught me something).

But ultimately the mites were gone, I don't use any ipm for over a year again and my plants are not stuck in a mode where they break down ptotein.

In fact I bet I use less bagged N than damn near anyone. That would be the real key to insect control anyway...low sap nitrate levels and good protein levels.

My soil EC runs 0.4, my brix 12-14, 6.4-6.5 sap pH and over 600 sap Ca.

I don't think I permanently ruined anything
 

milkyjoe

Senior Member
Veteran
I know you aren't a Tainio fan but if you get a chance talk with Dennis Tainio about protein synthesis vs breakdown and the role of microbes. Or go to jerry brunetti's site and read about funny proteins...mainly talking about cattle, but same thing.

Ptotein synthesis requires a lot of energy...a lot of glucose. If your plant is doing it efficiently how much sugar does it hold in the sap.

Even more energy to make fatty acids
 

Zarezhu

Member
Hey guys, hoping for a possible ID?

Plants are showing what looks to be either a deficiency/lockout/toxicity and I'm unsure why. The small leaf blades are fairly distorted/curly/twisty as well as some of the larger leaves.

I tried to scope as best as I could, I'm not sure my scope will magnify small enough to visually tell if I have BM eggs or not, but I found a whole bunch of clear spherical balls , similar to trich heads, on the tops and bottoms of most leaves. Including fan leaves that dont appear to have any trichs on them. Wasn't able to distinguish the pattern of BM eggs in any of these shots though.

At flip, I sprayed with forbid 4f, and again 5 days later.

No foliars until 2 days ago, when I decided to spray Mycotrol O, in case it IS a BM invasion. I have a bottle of Nukeem and Azamax on hand also, ready to use if theres a BM ID.

Here's a link to my thread in the coco section detailing every possible aspect of this grow:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=315552

And here's some shots I took last night:

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Zarezhu

Member
Awesome, I wasnt sure if they were stalk-less trichomes or what, but its good to know.

I was scoping the undeersides of the leaves mostly, but I did include the one pic of the top of the leaf. Does that scope look like it would be able to scope small enough to ID a bm egg?

The yellowing new growth and the twisty leaves don't necessarily mean it's BMs, right?
 

RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
Awesome, I wasnt sure if they were stalk-less trichomes or what, but its good to know.

I was scoping the undeersides of the leaves mostly, but I did include the one pic of the top of the leaf. Does that scope look like it would be able to scope small enough to ID a bm egg?

The yellowing new growth and the twisty leaves don't necessarily mean it's BMs, right?

You need 100X to see eggs/mites. Most inexpensive scopes are over rated. If they say 100X, probably only 60X, but that varies. That should be enough, but it's always best to get a powerful scope if possible.
The yellowing/twisting can be signs of Bms/cyclamens, but not necessarily. Can be lots of things. If there are no eggs, it's not mites. Get the best scope you can.
 

Zarezhu

Member
Can you recommend a good scope for under 75 or 100 bucks? I'll order it tonight.

I'm REALLY praying I just locked out K in the coco by using 300ppm calmag+ for too long into flower, and that a low EC flush will cure the problem, but I dont like waiting around lol. Ima spray a few plants with a K foliar, and if I see results tomorrow, I'll spray the entire garden with the K
 
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RetroGrow

Active member
Veteran
You have to check Amazon for scopes. I haven't looked at them for a few years. There is also a store, microscope .com.
I would flush, and also hit them with aspirin, 325 Mg. uncoated aspirin per gallon of water in a root drench.
 

Top.Shelf

Member
Possible Tarsonemid mite problems

Possible Tarsonemid mite problems

Having read through the of the BM sticky and through a lot of the more recent posts I'm pretty sure I could be dealing with one of the members of the Tarsonemid mite family. Can't say for sure yet as I can't anything on the plants with the naked eye. My 100x scope should arrive in a day or two though.

The plants deteriorated over the last 14 or so days. Like others I assumed it was nute deficiency or low night temps, but after rectifying night temperature and flushing the coco with 1/4 strength nutes they still got worse. I have Sleestack (worst affected) SLH and Kosher Tangie seed plants all in a 1.2m x 1.2m tent in my bedroom. First thing I did after reading through the sticky and threads was hit them with neem oil as I had that to hand then later I heat treated the tent. Should've rinsed the neem off properly as on the seed plants the mix was more oily for some reason and the leafs got burned even though the lamp was raised to the top of the tent about 4.5' away. I feed them nutes and aspirin prior to the heat treatment. Apart from the silly mistake on my behalf I can confirm 120c for a little over an hour didn't harm them from what I could tell. They actually looked slightly better today.

So I understand there to be 2 main approaches to killing these things, one being to treat with non toxic products, predators and ogbiowar or similar product with the heat treatments periodically. The other to go scorched earth policy with avid, forbid, kantos et al.

I have two main questions at the minute. If it turns out my plants are infected with these little bastards are they worth trying to save? I have no access back up of these strains or any clones full stop for that matter and would need to start from seed again after sanitizing. Pics are from before heat treatment...

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Worst plants 3x Sleestacks

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SLH not as bad but not looking happy

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Top.Shelf

Member
Secondly I'm in the UK there is no way to get Avid, Forbid, Kantos or any of the other US pesticides over here. Nor do we have Ogbiowar.

If they can be saved I will try the non toxic route first, but I plan on having the chems there in case I need them.

I understand Avid (Abamectin) to be Anthelmintic derived from Avermectins. We have a product that contains Ivermectin another Anthelmintic we buy stuff called Harka Mectin meant for treatment of lice and mites in Pigeons that contains it to kill spidermites. I can't find what the difference to Abamectin is online though.

I also found an alternative to Ogbiowar it called biowar lol and sold over here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Biowar-Nute-Pack-Biowar-Root-Pack-Biowar-Foliar-Pack-/181139256584

It contains Beauveria bassiana, I read on here and in studies that this is fairly effective at killing and controlling Tarsonemid mites.

There is a product called Oberon that contains the same active ingredient as Forbid 4f- Spiromesifen, but you need to be licensed to purchase it. The same with the equivalent of Kantos - Movento a license required to purchase.

Seedplants

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Green81

Well-known member
Veteran
Hey bro the sleestacks looking exactly like my two stardawg I had, sad to say I had to cut them down even before I flipped, they were past the point of no return and your seedling plants will certainly outgrow them. You can get the og biowar on eBay and he will send to the UK, you just can't use the main website, eBay.com only.
 

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