BREEDING WITH FEMINIZED SEEDS PRO'S & CON'S?

[Wandering Roman]

To add... we've never seen a feminized clone (cutting from feminized seed stock) over 5 years old,, if anyone has a photo out there,, then please throw it up!

Even if it's a clone of a clone,, or clone of a clone of a clone that's feminized,, we've NEVER seen one!

Overall,, stay away from feminized stock unless you only plan to grow it and smoke it (like we would cucumbers,, or any other fem. seeds),, then they are fine.

Otherwise these seeds are NOT ideal for as breeding stock,, in standard practise,, (we are experimenting here,, and sure wouldn't encourage other ppl to cross fem. seeds into regular seed lines for the fun of it!)... just like we wouldnt auto-flowerring stock! its a non-brainer!

,, stick to normal / regular seeds for breeding with IMO... it's better in the long run for every grower that grows those seeds in the future,, far fewer complications

Peace n love

ask and you shall receive Doc!

This cut is over 6 years old today and these pics are 7 months old...


Deadwood is an elite that I created from my initial beta runs of colloidal silver's application in ethylene suppression .



She is as healthy and robust as any so called elite that is out there,,,and I've had them all.


You couldn't make her hermie if your life depended on it!


really what did you think was gonna happen to a cut from femmed creation? was it going to self implode ?? lol!!

step up to modern thinking,,,,femmed practice when done by somebody with a brain is as good as it gets!!!!



I have a current F1 of Old Sog's Super silver haze x East coast sour Diesel that is so damned good every bean is an elite,,,you literally wrap your head trying to choose which one is the keeper.


I reversed the ECSD clone and made pollen via colloidal silver of course...this went against my better judgement as I usually will never use a mother as unstable as the ecsd cut,,,her history is not what you'd want due to hermies in there...

But I was eager to get that chunky trait she adds to the floral clusters thanks to MSS in her lineage,,,it paid off and there have been no hermies to date...

 

[CARE giver]

Why are so many people hating on femenized plants for breeding?

It's part of nature. To think that humans are just now introducing Marijuana to hermied parents is just idiotic. It has happened. Going back thousands of years the seeds you have now had a hermied mom at some point in it's lineage.

 

[BlueGrassToker]

You can take a female seed plant from a specific line that has been brought about by feminizing, and another seed plant from the same line brought about by regular breeding, and the two don't know any difference between themselves. Nor can we distinguish between the two either physically or genetically, in the lab or otherwise, because there are no differences that distinguish them from each other. They are virtually identical.

I think it may be a matter of people's misinformation more than anything.

 

[Claude Hopper]

ask and you shall receive Doc!

This cut is over 6 years old today and these pics are 7 months old...


Deadwood is an elite that I created from my initial beta runs of colloidal silver's application in ethylene suppression .



She is as healthy and robust as any so called elite that is out there,,,and I've had them all.


You couldn't make her hermie if your life depended on it!


really what did you think was gonna happen to a cut from femmed creation? was it going to self implode ?? lol!!

step up to modern thinking,,,,femmed practice when done by somebody with a brain is as good as it gets!!!!



I have a current F1 of Old Sog's Super silver haze x East coast sour Diesel that is so damned good every bean is an elite,,,you literally wrap your head trying to choose which one is the keeper.


I reversed the ECSD clone and made pollen via colloidal silver of course...this went against my better judgement as I usually will never use a mother as unstable as the ecsd cut,,,her history is not what you'd want due to hermies in there...

But I was eager to get that chunky trait she adds to the floral clusters thanks to MSS in her lineage,,,it paid off and there have been no hermies to date...

Hard to argue with that.

Lovely pictures, too.

 

[smokefrogg]

i am scared of feminized seed for breeding

not sure what method it was done with, but there was an afghan some farmers i know run that was feminized, beautiful giant lovely plant. they tossed lowryder pollen onto it, every single one of the f1 seeds produced a female, the bud was mostly dank from them, but absolutely zero males to try and make f2

also a couple of the cuts we run that came from feminized seed will spit out male parts at the end of flower on occasion

maybe these instances came from females that were stressed in order to self pollenate instead of the colloidal silver and that is why, either way it has kind of scared me from trying to use feminized seed to breed with

 

[BlueGrassToker]

*lol I have no idea how I ended up placing thumbs down on this post, I guess I need to learn to navigate better.

We have to go through and select suitable parents for breeding from standard seed plants, why would we not have to do the same with feminized seed plants? smokefrogg, all of the issues you described can and do arise from regular seed plants.
You mentioned being scared of feminized seed plants..as do many folks, but look at what you provided us with. Your pals female plants had absolutely nothing to do with all those seeds turning out all female. That was completely the doing of the pollen. And it tells me that the pollen they used was NOT from a male, but rather a plant that expressed intersex. Now, they very well may have chemically stressed a true breeding female to use as the pollen donar...but I highly doubt that or you may have more info than you provided.


Poor selection begets poor offspring, no matter what the source of the seed for the selection plants was.

Actually, the phrase "breeding with seeds" is a misnomer. We don't breed with seeds, we breed with plants. Now, once a plant that comes from a feminized seed germinates, it is now a candidate for breeding and needs to be put under than same scrutiny as any other potential breeding candidate.
The feminized thing is completely after the fact, and when breeding is concerned there is nothing about feminizing to consider. Unless of course you are breeding feminized seeds.

 

[smokefrogg]

^^^ you could be right on the money, she was stating that the lowryder #2 male was a true male and had no hermie signs, i was not there though and did not see for my own eyes so really who bloody knows. man i really wish one of those afghan x lowryder #2 f1 plants turned out to be a male, c'est la vie, the 1 living afghan x lowryder #2 we have left will thus be back crossed with lowryder #2 pollen, hoping to get some males out of those seeds

re the lr#2, the breeding plan is for something quick that doesn't care about photoperiod, strictly for random seed bomb guerilla grow purposes during the "wrong" time of the year

 

[Laugan Gaucher]

I've made crosses with regular males and feminised and I have no fear...so much bullshit about something that nobody never really understoud...

hemp is life and life have only one rule : LOVE

so you must love your hemp and godlove will do the rest...

a blue bus had called us ? what's that ?

 

[stagger lee]

No disrespect to any1 but what it should come down to is WHY pay for seeds that come from a female thats been chemically abused into creating male pollen, when you can buy regular seeds from a perfectly natural proven female?

The only 2 reasons Ive heard are so you dont have to worry about not identifying a male (before it pollenates the females).
And the 2nd reason is wasted space that these males (from reg seeds) take up...

Again no disrespect but come on.. any experienced grower knows its simple to identify a male , especially before it drops! Only new growers think that this is difficult. Its a no brainer?! Newbs are brainwashed into MALES are BAD! females are good...

And the 2nd reason wasted grow space on unwanted males! Again
males show themselves quickly, much quicker than females.. And in many cases males can be pulled while still in late veg/or at least very early flowerin stage... So wasted space is bs cause your staetin from seeds tryin to find the best females, males are long gone before your precious flowerin space comes into play.

Unfortunately most seed custi's are new to growing and dont realize when choosing the only 2 benefits to go feminized just arent worth all the bs. Worried about males? try always looking for your fem females turning herm!

Oh and fems are doing harm to genetics as a whole.1;1 breeding severly limits the diversity within the strains genes ect. were losing many strains that are no longer available as reg seeds. this is the future ,unfortunately!

 

[marijuanamat]

Most breeders of fem seeds aren't bothered about the harm there doing to the gene pool,its all about the money at the end of the day.

 

[chase]

I dont like fems , but at times I have considered feminizing some cali only cuts for a possible move to Haawwii .Theese seeds would be used for breeding.

 

[mendo420]

How do feminized seeds harm the gene pool?

Fem seeds give you crosses you would not get. Helping the gene pool and seed availability.

Doesn't genetic diversity help the gene pool?

Do you really think feminized seeds create hermaphrodites?

Have you ever grown out feminized seeds?

I have and they turned out great! Wish I had kept a cut of the 2# monster Lemon Skunk fems I had.

How many of you breeders keep males around?

I remember years ago you had to go to Amsterdam to get good seeds.
Now look you can buy seeds everywhere.

For people who have limited space or want to plant early or got a late start fem seed is great!

I have a few that I have created and am going to test out this season.

 

[VonBudí]

Fem seeds give you crosses you would not get.

explain pls

 

[stagger lee]

dnt wanta start a arguement, i just wanta get that out there, fems obviously dont have the males genes, so its considered(i think) 1:1 breeding .which limits the diversity w/in that certain variety. not to mention every1 seems to overlook the only "pro's" that fems bring to the table. the 2 mentioned a few posts back.

If Im overlookin let me know. . Growers seem to point the conspiracy finger at growers that dont see fems as a good thing. But my experience is the opposite. Pro fem growers seem to take alittle more hardcore stance,I just think the cons heavily outweigh the pro's.

Not to mention several of my fav strains are no longer available in reg seeds. Anyway No male= less variety w/in that strains genetics..

being new at growin beg dont have all the facts, and when more experienced growers try to educate them in grow forums almost everytime pro fem growers take offense and a debate turns into a arguement ect ect. So I apologize ahead of time if my posts seem one sided and disrespectful... I think newbs have a harder time finding potenial herm probs than the males reg seeds produce.

 

[takkada]

that sounds right

 

[chase]

If you are a breeder , then you shoudent have too many problems working out the hermies , your going to need time , & space , so you can do your selection.There are a couple of fems that im considering.

 

[High Country]

If you are a breeder , then you shoudent have too many problems working out the hermies , your going to need time , & space , so you can do your selection.There are a couple of fems that im considering.

I kind of agree. The best strain to reverse is an inherently stable one.

I have reversed an indica of mine using Colloidal Silver. The seeds produced were viable and true to the original.

The plant I reversed was very stable. It had never hermied despite being stressed to the max with light leaks, temps, nutrients, pH and general abuse. It just soldiered on.

Thus it was the perfect candidate for a sex reversal.

The only thing that makes it put out male flowers is Colloidal Silver....nothing else.

The seeds produced were genetically identical to the original.....and they were all female.

 

[Tom Hill]

Stagger Lee, many have given you plenty of reasons why breeding using reversals is a more than viable option but you refuse to listen/learn (thank you Mendo420 you nailed a good part of it). The fact of the matter is that elites rise to the surface as individuals (FEMALE individuals) vastly (to put it mildly!) more often than as male/female lines to reproduce "regularly" as you put it. And regular matings will often suffer a disadvantage because of this.

I agree that your 2 reasons you've come up with are of very little value to the breeder, but Mendo420's (paraphrasing) "crosses/seedform germplasm you would not otherwise get" is worth its weight in gold - both to the breeder, as well as to the collective cannabis germplasm as a whole.

There is zero mathematical difference in intensity of breeding between female on female 1:1 and male on female 1:1, they are both 1:1 - ie, they both narrow diversity at the exact same rate. So yes, you are overlooking. It's not that you are being disrespectful to others, it's that you and others are being disrespectful to the science of breeding itself with posts like that. It's a question of spreading ignorance, not conspiracies.

Simply put, there are ZERO CONS to breeding female x female vs female x male matings - all other things (number of individuals selected etc) being the same. -T

 

[growcodile]

There is zero mathematical difference in intensity of breeding between female on female 1:1 and male on female 1:1, they are both 1:1 - ie, they both narrow diversity at the exact same rate.... It's a question of spreading ignorance, not conspiracies.

amen! mathematical (and logical) arguments are quite impressive .. less talk more mathematics pls

 

[Tom Hill]

Sure, imo, the applicable maths were laid down nicely by Allard as follows:

"The most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids."

So we can see above that 1:1 is nearly 3 times less intense (in achieving homozygosity) than selfing, and it continues falling from there. Reversals do not necessarily equal selfing and this is where arguments such as Stagger's fall to pieces. It's about numbers, not technique. It's a balancing act between the desire to achieve homozygosity vs maintaining adaptive ability etc via heterozygosity. Eg, perhaps you are happy that AA brings you a uniform and outstanding crop in your environment but aa works much better in mine. Therefore, it may be wise to leave some Aa in the population so that I might isolate my aa in future gens at my site. But again, this is a numbers game, not one of fem vs reg. When Allard states that selfing schemes are by far the most common tactic in outcrossing plants, yet we still have this absurd and ignorant witch hunt going on with cannabis reversals, then something is definitely rotten in Denmark and we need to get past this as a community. -Tom