breeding for terpenes

[Sam_Skunkman]

I would say:

Landraces/strains grown/ breed in more optimal environments more desirable terpene profiles.

If we are able to find what environment creates/ develops a certain terpene profile, we could apply that environment to a certain strain, to breed it towards a desired profile.

I have to disagree, terpenes are related to smell no to potency.

SO WRONG, TRY PURE THC AND SAY THAT AGAIN. THEN TRY PURE THC WITH SOME TERPENES, YOU WILL NOT SAY IT AGAIN.

Potency is related to different combinations of cannabinoids.
THCV does get you high IMO. It makes the effect to THC longer and I think that strains with high THCV are responsible for the what is called "clean effect", No ceiling. It does estimulate the mind and when the "comedown" comes you don´t feel it the way you do with sativa leaning, sativa/indica hybrids like SSH or Jack Herer.

SURE, ALL THE DIFFERENT REPORTED EFFECTS ARE FROM THC + THE OTHE CANNABINOIDS. NOW WESTER BRED AND GROWN CANNABIS HAS LITTLE TO IN MOST CASES NONE OF THE OTHER CANNABINOIDS, BUT YOU CAN STILL GET ALL THE DIFFERENT EFFECTS?
OH BTW, HAVE YOU EVER SMOKE PURE THCV? IF YOU DID YOU WOULD NOT SAY ANYTHING SO FOOLISH. THCV DOES NOT GET YOU HIGH, PURE THCV + PURE THC MAKES THE THC LESS EFFECTIVE, I HAVE TRIED THEM.

¿Any idea of the cannabinoid profile of Early Girl any CBD on her?

YOU NEED TO ASK THE PEOPLE THAT MADE THE SEEDS IF THEIR VERSION OF EARLY GIRL HAS CBD. HOW WOULD I KNOW?
-SamS

P.D : Start bashing on me...

X

 

[harry74]

Ok.

I don´t believe in Pure Thc ans so on. Pure Thc???

May I ask if you have grown somenthing besides cannabis ever??

That may be will help you to understand many things:

The original reason why plants produce terpenes is to ATRACT BEES/ INSECTS TO ENSURE POLINIZATION.
The same women use perfume to atract men from a longer distance.In the shorter distance they use push up intimissimi/ wonderbra nowadays. At the end we are animals.

Remember the pastry; if there is not the right amounth of yeast/baking powder, the cake is not going to raise in the oven.

May be the key is the proportion of cannabinoids; a certain proportion of cannabinoids gives a certain effect.
If you haven´t done this allready, I guess you have, you could check cannabinoid tests from different strains that have same kind of effect and look if there is a correlation betwen the PROPORTION of Cannabinoids ( not the QUANTITY) and a certain effect.

If I´ve been asking about Early Girl is because I tought you brought it to Europe, I won´t ask again.

May be you´ve got more data/experience but if your explanation doesn´t convince me, I´m not going to give you the reason just because you´re Sam.
If I see tomorrow with my own mind that I´m wrong I´ll recognize it no problem.

Anyway, thanks for stretching my mind...

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Ok.

I don´t believe in Pure Thc ans so on. Pure Thc???
ARE YOU JOKING, OF COURSE YOU CAN MAKE 100% PURE THC.
I HAVE SOME IN MY HAND.

May I ask if you have grown somenthing besides cannabis ever??

I AM AN ORGANIC BIO-DYNAMIC FARMER TAUGHT BY ALLEN CHADWICK MORE THEN 40 YEARS AGO? AT THE SANTA CRUZ UNIVERSITY GARDEN. I GROW ORGANIC VEGGIES EVERY YEAR.

That may be will help you to understand many things:

The original reason why plants produce terpenes is to ATRACT BEES/ INSECTS TO ENSURE POLINIZATION.
The same women use perfume to atract men from a longer distance.In the shorter distance they use push up intimissimi/ wonderbra nowadays. At the end we are animals.

ARE YOU SO SURE OF THIS? CANNABIS PRODUCES TERPENES TO ATTRACT BEES TO ENSURE POLLINATION? WOW, THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT!!! AND I THOUGHT CANNABIS WAS WIND POLLINATED!

Remember the pastry; if there is not the right amounth of yeast/baking powder, the cake is not going to raise in the oven.

May be the key is the proportion of cannabinoids; a certain proportion of cannabinoids gives a certain effect.
If you haven´t done this allready, I guess you have, you could check cannabinoid tests from different strains that have same kind of effect and look if there is a correlation betwen the PROPORTION of Cannabinoids ( not the QUANTITY) and a certain effect.

If I´ve been asking about Early Girl is because I tought you brought it to Europe, I won´t ask again.

YES I DID, BUT I NEVER ANALYZED IT, AND I DO NOT MAKE OR SELL EARLY GIRL ANY MORE.

May be you´ve got more data/experience but if your explanation doesn´t convince me, I´m not going to give you the reason just because you´re Sam.
If I see tomorrow with my own mind that I´m wrong I´ll recognize it no problem.

NO PROBLEM, I CAN LEAD A HORSE TO WATER BUT I CAN NOT MAKE IT DRINK...
-SAMS

Anyway, thanks for stretching my mind...

X

 

[harry74]

If you cannot find the truth right where

you are,where else do you expect to find it?

Dogen

I´ll add to this.... in a lab?

 

[Hrpuffnkush]

Where did you get the analysis? Who did it? I can't figure out what the
Max. WL 21.90 or Max. WL 0.35 or Max. WL 1.08 refer to? up on top.
Or the WL % 0.59, WL % 24.30, WL %0.29, WL % 0.08, WL % 0.22, WL % 0.96, WL % 0.16??? Also on top...
Any idea?

If you analyze the terpene profile of an imported Thai or Afghani and make a simple F1 with a Skunk #1 that you already have the terpene analysis for, when you grow out the F1 seeds you can tell via a terpene analysis even if the F1 samples are all listed with numbers
to hide what they are. It is obvious when you look at the terpene analysis which are related to what, you see the major peaks of the Skunk #1 profile and the major peaks of the profile of the Thai or Afghani, it is that easy, they are mixed together in a single profile.

I agree, more THC with more Terpenes of the right kind = stronger Cannabis.
-SamS

"The Werc Shop" Those were the Cannabanoid #'s , ive noticed that plants closely related have very close terpene sums and amounts , compared to non related strains..

Tangerine Pheno

Parent to Mandarin , 1st test posted..

My goal is to keep the quality we love about OG but get rid of the,
as "RobertC" put it , wet towel slap in face high . The effect of OG is not the best... , so ive been teaching myself about terpenes and how they effect the high , joping to change it up some , im happy so far with results.. and in process found other clues to related plants

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

"The Werc Shop" Those were the Cannabanoid #'s , ive noticed that plants closely related have very close terpene sums and amounts , compared to non related strains..

Tangerine Pheno
View Image

Parent to Mandarin , 1st test posted..
View Image

My goal is to keep the quality we love about OG but get rid of the,
as "RobertC" put it , wet towel slap in face high . The effect of OG is not the best... , so ive been teaching myself about terpenes and how they effect the high , joping to change it up some , im happy so far with results.. and in process found other clues to related plants

It is easy to move terpenes around by breeding. Take the potent OG cross with the plant or plants for the terpenes you like and make f1 seeds, grow out the F1 seeds and self them the more plants the better, grow the F2 seeds and select the one that has the best terpene profile and OG strength.
I did this with Original Haze and a no THC variety and made f2's that smelled exactly like Original Haze with zero THC.
It blew my mind at the time, more then a decade ago.
Good luck,
-SamS

 

[harry74]

aromatic herbs & terpenes

aromatic herbs & terpenes



I was yesterday watering my plants.

As seen I´ve got different aromatic plants.
2 different mints, thyme, oreganoblueberrys.
I started thinking.
The aromatic plants used in cooking smell but usually you need to touch/rub them. This made my think:

¿ Could be that there are volatile/ non volatile terpenes?
Many aromatic herbs are rich in terpenes.

Acording to Wikipedia when a terpene is chemically modified trough oxidation or rearranging the carbón eskeleton (don´t know what this means really), becomes a terpenoid/isoprenoid.

¿ Can we say that when we dry&cure the buds the terpenes, trough oxidation becomes a terpenoid?

It looks to me that some plants evolve more than others.

All the thyme, oregano or Rosemary that I know smell more or less the same;my oregano smells the same than greek oregano let´s say.

But there are others that had evolved to have different terpene profiles like Basil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil

Basil comes from India, I guess when you hear basil you think in Italy. May be Marco Polo brought it to Europe???

The Italian basil ( sweet) is quite different to Thai Basil ( lemon),
not just in the terpene profile but in shape too.

Basil and oregano contain large amounts of (E)-beta-caryophyllene (BCP), which might have a use in treating inflammatory bowel diseases and arthritis. BCP is the only product identified in nature that activates CB2 selectively; it interacts with one of two cannabinoid receptors (CB2), blocking chemical signals that lead to inflammation, without triggering cannabis's mood-altering effects.[15]

This is from wiki; I was quite puzzled when I found it yesterday, any idea if is accurate??

 

[harry74]

grow out the F1 seeds and self them the more plants the better,

¿Do you use STS as breeding tool? I mean you have used STS???

 

[FLAgreenthumb]

Im new to the ICmag community just wanted to say hello to the famous Sam the Skunkman!
wow bro.....picture 36yo dude with a beard excited like a ditsy chick waiting for an autograph...lol my wife is like sam the who? haha
anyway, thanks for all your contributions to our plant and our culture...

peace

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=49503&pictureid=1233013&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

I was yesterday watering my plants.

As seen I´ve got different aromatic plants.
2 different mints, thyme, oreganoblueberrys.
I started thinking.
The aromatic plants used in cooking smell but usually you need to touch/rub them. This made my think:

¿ Could be that there are volatile/ non volatile terpenes?
Many aromatic herbs are rich in terpenes.

If you cannot find the truth right where you are,where else do you expect to find it?

Also terpenes can be bound into glycosides which have no odor



Acording to Wikipedia when a terpene is chemically modified trough oxidation or rearranging the carbón eskeleton (don´t know what this means really), becomes a terpenoid/isoprenoid.

¿ Can we say that when we dry&cure the buds the terpenes, trough oxidation becomes a terpenoid?

NO

It looks to me that some plants evolve more than others.

All the thyme, oregano or Rosemary that I know smell more or less the same;my oregano smells the same than greek oregano let´s say.

But there are others that had evolved to have different terpene profiles like Basil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil

Basil comes from India, I guess when you hear basil you think in Italy. May be Marco Polo brought it to Europe???

The Italian basil ( sweet) is quite different to Thai Basil ( lemon),
not just in the terpene profile but in shape too.

Basil and oregano contain large amounts of (E)-beta-caryophyllene (BCP), which might have a use in treating inflammatory bowel diseases and arthritis. BCP is the only product identified in nature that activates CB2 selectively; it interacts with one of two cannabinoid receptors (CB2), blocking chemical signals that lead to inflammation, without triggering cannabis's mood-altering effects.[15]

This is from wiki; I was quite puzzled when I found it yesterday, any idea if is accurate??

If you cannot find the truth right where you are,where else do you expect to find it?

-SamS

 

[harry74]

Yes, I´m trying to find it

Yes, I´m trying to find it



I´m trying to find the true now and here, as this industry is doing nothing besides deceiving growers and taking position for a posible legalization.
What would you think if in a human population there is a increase on the ratio of twins borne???? It´s a kind of warning that somenthing is wrong.
I sent this same pics to India, to several e-mails I found googling Mohan Ram in the ISA web page ( Indian Science Academy).
At least 2 months.... no answer.
May be they will listen to you as you are a Breeder.

¿Are you going to help ?What the fuck is going on?????

http://insaindia.org/detail.php?id=N78-0477

I´m asking you please if you really care.

 

[harry74]

I´m calling for help to everyone no just to Sam

Is anybody there?
Does anybody care?

Does anybody see what I see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Rj-4bNoUz0

Alone in a Crowd

 

[Betterhaff]

It is easy to move terpenes around by breeding. Take the potent OG cross with the plant or plants for the terpenes you like and make f1 seeds, grow out the F1 seeds and self them the more plants the better, grow the F2 seeds and select the one that has the best terpene profile and OG strength.
I did this with Original Haze and a no THC variety and made f2's that smelled exactly like Original Haze with zero THC.
It blew my mind at the time, more then a decade ago.
Good luck,
-SamS

You kind of confused me here with the breeding scheme, maybe it's just the terminology. You are saying make F1's and self them to get the desired profiles?

ie :
1. OG x Mr. Terpene = F1
2. Self F1 (female F1 x self) = F2
3. Select F2 plant with desired profile

I guess what is confusing me is that you are saying self the F1, the results are F2 and the desired plant should be in there.

Are you calling the progeny of a selfed F1...F2?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

You kind of confused me here with the breeding scheme, maybe it's just the terminology. You are saying make F1's and self them to get the desired profiles?

ie :
1. OG x Mr. Terpene = F1
2. Self F1 (female F1 x self) = F2
3. Select F2 plant with desired profile

I guess what is confusing me is that you are saying self the F1, the results are F2 and the desired plant should be in there.

Are you calling the progeny of a selfed F1...F2?

I said to self the F1's on a population level (to make f2's) not a plant level which would make the F1's, selfed S1's.
Understand? You could also do it by taking the F1's and selfing one and making S1 seeds from a F1 seed.
-SamS

 

[FLAgreenthumb]

F1's will be homogenous, F2's are where you see wide variation and expression of the Parent stock which gives you the chance to select for the characteristics of the P you want....
and yes a male and a female F1 crossed will give you F2's.....

 

[Only Ornamental]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=49503&pictureid=1233013View Image

I was yesterday watering my plants.

As seen I´ve got different aromatic plants.
2 different mints, thyme, oreganoblueberrys.
I started thinking.
The aromatic plants used in cooking smell but usually you need to touch/rub them. This made my think:

¿ Could be that there are volatile/ non volatile terpenes?
Many aromatic herbs are rich in terpenes.

Acording to Wikipedia when a terpene is chemically modified trough oxidation or rearranging the carbón eskeleton (don´t know what this means really), becomes a terpenoid/isoprenoid.

¿ Can we say that when we dry&cure the buds the terpenes, trough oxidation becomes a terpenoid?

It looks to me that some plants evolve more than others.

All the thyme, oregano or Rosemary that I know smell more or less the same;my oregano smells the same than greek oregano let´s say.

But there are others that had evolved to have different terpene profiles like Basil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil

Basil comes from India, I guess when you hear basil you think in Italy. May be Marco Polo brought it to Europe???

The Italian basil ( sweet) is quite different to Thai Basil ( lemon),
not just in the terpene profile but in shape too.

Basil and oregano contain large amounts of (E)-beta-caryophyllene (BCP), which might have a use in treating inflammatory bowel diseases and arthritis. BCP is the only product identified in nature that activates CB2 selectively; it interacts with one of two cannabinoid receptors (CB2), blocking chemical signals that lead to inflammation, without triggering cannabis's mood-altering effects.[15]

This is from wiki; I was quite puzzled when I found it yesterday, any idea if is accurate??

Hi,
Thyme is also very diverse in terms of terpene composition and 6 mayor chemovars are known.
The basil you're referring to is likely another species (at least subspecies) . But the statement about caryophyllene in basil and CB2 receptors is true. It wasn't me but I was there when it was discovered .
There are non-volatile terpenes, like diterpenes or cholesterol... but in cannabis we are usually talking about mono- and sesquiterpenes. Both of which usually are volatile in their non-conjugated form and most have a unique smell. As Sam said, terpenes are sometimes bound to sugar or other compounds to rend them water soluble and non-volatile (easier to stock intra-cellularly or to transport in the sap). Although, these cases are rare; small terpenes are frequently coupled to acetic acid and other small carboxylic acids. These are a bit less volatile and the aroma may change but to my knowledge these usually aren't conjugated enough to completely loose volatility or scent.
The thing with rubbing the herb to make it smell is the same in cannabis. Volatile terpenes on leaves (not flowers) are often enclosed in glands on the surface of the plant and these have to be broken to release the full aroma. Cannabis simply has a lot of fine-walled glands containing strongly smelling terpenes and that's why you don't necessarily need to rub weed to smell it.

Rearrangement of the terpene's carbon skeleton usually takes place within the living plant. The resulting compound doesn't follow a simple rule for the determination of terpenes but still derived from one and that's why it is called 'terpenoid' afterwards; they may still smell or be used for something completely different. Many oxidative modifications are also enzyme driven but storage surely modifies terpenes in a similar way. Especially poly-unsaturated constituents like myrcene are prone to oxidative degradation and finally polymerisation.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

No the F1's will not be homogenous they will be heterogeneous, likely they will look very similar to each other, if the two parents of the F1's were as different as possible, that is what you meant?
-SamS

F1's will be homogenous, F2's are where you see wide variation and expression of the Parent stock which gives you the chance to select for the characteristics of the P you want....
and yes a male and a female F1 crossed will give you F2's.....

 

[Only Ornamental]

I understood him in a way that the F1 between two stable lines will be homogeneous in appearance. That means there will be (hypothetically) only one pheno-/chemotype. What you, Sam, mean is heterozygous (genotype), no?

 

[harry74]

There is no way to know how a cross is going to perform, untill you do the progeny test.

You can have ideas/impressions but you can´t Know it beforehand.

UNFORMED PEOPLE DELIGHT IN THE GAUDY AND IN NOVELTY.

COOKED PEOPLE DELIGHT IN THE ORDINARY.

Zen saying

 

[FLAgreenthumb]

No the F1's will not be homogenous they will be heterogeneous, likely they will look very similar to each other, if the two parents of the F1's were as different as possible, that is what you meant?
-SamS

It was...lol I thought homogenous meant the characteristics of the parents would be evenly distributed and the plants would all be similar..lol I feel dumb! hahaha thanks for the education Sam..
I understand that the more different the parents are, ie a laos mother and an afghani or pakastani father, the more similar the F1's will be as well as exhibiting more hybrid vigour. Is that correct? also would you be kind enough to explain to me the actual meaning of the terms homogenous and heterogenous? Thanks bro