BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

[BigToke]

Hey Californian,

The first grow that I did I used PK-13/14, but on this grow I’ll be using KoolBoom by GH. I’ve grown in the Bio-Buckets with and without additives and to tell you the truth I have not seen a lot of different ether way, until they come back with something as good as Super Bud I don’t know if we will every see as good of results as that, but I have seen some pretty impressive grows on this site.

 

[Californian]

Nice

Nice

We use the exact same nutes, but I must say I am very impressed with your plants. They show no evidence of purpling in the stems whatsoever, perfect green all around. I grow aeroponically. I will dump the clay rocks next round and go with lava rocks like you do.

What is your target pH? You probably mentioned it already.

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

There Can Be Only One!!


Well folks, it looks as though the war is over, and victory is mine!!! I will not bore you more details about my experiment any more cense I already posted the details of this experiment in a privies post, just wanted to update you and not lave you hanging, this well be my final report about this experiment as there is nothing alas to report, so lets touch base just a little bit.

In these photo’s you well see a live demonstration of what the beneficial bacterium and so to live algae fungi, it makes a white covering over the infected areas of the lava rocks and creates a barer between them and any thing alas to keep it from spreading, notice also that some of the stems were infected with the fungi algae and how the beneficial bacterium has travels through the media to get to the stem and to kill the algae, absolutely remarkable!!!

Although there were no negative side to harming the plants and that’s great, but were some miner side effects to this experiment, the beneficial bacterium works by covering the green algae fungi and begins decomposing the fungus, this decomposing well make you PH go down a bit, but after the beneficial bacterium is done doing it’s job, the PH will go back up, I have also in clouded a pic of my DO Meter and it’s readings of the thread week of flowering. Oh ya, I almost forgot I added two extra HID’s the middle or in-between the two bio-systems.


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[BigToke]

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets "The Living System!!"

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets "The Living System!!"

Californian,

I will dump the clay rocks next round and go with lava rocks like you do.

I am not so sure that an aeroponics system can sustain Beneficial Bacterium, your system is on a cycle timer, and mine run’s 27/7, my lava rocks are completely submerged under water/nutrient solution, if I under stand aeroponics they do not submerge there net-pots completely, but it mite by possible if the lava rocks did not dry out, but I am afraid that unless you had a completely Recirculating system that there would be dead spots, and that’s a NO!! NO!!

What is your target pH? You probably mentioned it already.

You have probably hared that it has been said that for best results is between 5.5 to 6.0, but not so in the Bio-Buckets system, you are dealing with a completely and entirely different type of hydroponics system, and because you have introduce living organisms into your system, it has been my experience that between 5.0 to 5.5 renders best results.

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

Updates From The Land Of The Bio-Buckets!!!


Well not really a hole lot to say other than the obvious, I’ll include a few pic’s to help give you a visual.

• Well the first four pic’s have to do with humidity, remember that I said I was challenged in this area, well not no more, I included a picture of my dehumidifier in a few post back, and man oh man doe’s that thing every work, it was the biggest one I could find around my area. Btw I do trim my plants twice in a grow, I included before & after pic’s, the trimming will reduce your humidity a great deal.
  
• And here is some photo’s of my girls in there thread week of flowering first bud formation, I thank there looking pretty good.

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[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

Controlling The Odor!!!


One of the smallest things about your grow can become the largest, odor!! Such a simple thing, but can takeaway many nights of sleep if not taken care of, and is a major give away and dead ringer for; neighbors, friends, family, door to door seals person’s, meter readers, cops, and cops dogs, ect.

When I first started out I used:

1. Off the self ides, which can be found almost any were.
2. Then I read a few articles on how to DIY build your own ozone generator 03. That worked ok for the time being.
3. And a couple of years latter I decided to buy one of those store bought ozone generators, and that was ok for then.
4. Over time my grow room got larger and larger and guess what, so did the small!!! So something had to be done, more ozone? No way, I don’t know how but I do know it does mess up your buds if left in the grow room, I only use mine in the exhaust from now on, but that still leaves the small in the grow room.
5. But I thank I have finally come to the end of my odor problems a total wipe out of all odors!!! Vaportek Optimum 4000, I must admit that this item is the best and complete odor controlling unite I have every used, I would like to send out a special thanks to Rez Dog, for showing me the light. Although I must admit I don’t like the idea of ordering new canisters every six mouths and it’s a little pricey, but can you put a price on a peace of mind. No!![/list=1]
   
   
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[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

Nutrient Solution Management and Longevity
for small recycling systems

Due to the many concerns about the non changing reservoir of the bio-bucket system, I have tried to piece together a little something of the workings of my bio-system

There are many ways in which people determine the longevity, or useful life, of their hydroponic nutrient solutions. These range from the "replace it every week or two to be safe" method, to not replacing it at all except between crops. The latter, meant primarily for Recirculating DWC Bio-Bucket System of operations. For the home grower who hasn't the resources nor the financial incentive to have lab tests performed, other management methods are used. As home growers not using lab tests, in this article we will not consider maintaining the elemental makeup of the solution. Attempting to do so without such tests would have no basis in fact and would be based solely on guesswork.

Useful Life
Useful life can mean many things to many people depending on their definition of useful. Two factors can be used to define useful where it relates to nutrient solutions; plant health and economics.

Plant Health

• A solution is no longer useful when it has potential to negatively impact growth or the health of plants, and ultimately yield. The nutritive quality of a solution is determined by the grower at the time he mixes a new solution. I remember a time during the beta testing of my system there was one time that I mess read the ratio for the bloom formula and that caused an excess/build up of salts in the system, even then because of the design of the bio-buckets toxic levels were never reached, if you do get an excess of build up salts in the bio-buckets you better check yourself and see what your doing wrong because most likely you’re the one doing it.
  
• Some have argued that Over time, water and nutrients will be used by plants and will slowly change the elemental composition (or balance) of the original mix, leaving some elements in short supply while others become proportionately over-abundant.
  
  There are two facets involved with elemental availability.
  1. One is the existence of an element,
  2. the other is the effect the chemistry of an imbalanced solution has on the availability of that element.[/list=1]
  3. An aged solution's imbalance can be such that it either has an insufficient quantity of an element existing in the mix, or that the imbalance has changed other properties of the solution to cause the element to become unavailable to the plants. For example, a solution may have had all but a trace of its nitrogen depleted, or it may still contain adequate nitrogen but it will be unavailable because of the pH shift resulting from the imbalance. Either condition is unfavorable to plant health. The difference being that the former points to a spent solution that has no more useful life and needs to be replaced, and the latter points to a solution which may still be useful but is starting to require more maintenance than desired. Although both points may carry merit, this has been my experience in the bio-bucket system, the reservoir is designed with a float valve, which is constantly adding fresh water back into the bio-system:
  • A good day in my bio-system goes like this, you start out with a set point of 1100ppm, and two days later it is at 1050, depending on what stage of growth there at.
    
  • It should go without saying that using the plants themselves as a means of measuring the useful life of a solution is counterproductive. The purpose of nutrient solution management is to avoid any unhealthy solution condition, waiting for plants to show signs of nutrient stress defeats that goal. Instead of using the plants as guinea pigs, we use indicators in the solution that will alert us to approaching potential problems so that we can avoid those problems thus insuring uninterrupted plant health for the life of the solution.
  
  Economics
  A useful solution will not be discarded before its time. If economy is defined as...... Careful, thrifty management of resources, such as money, materials, or labor, then replacing a solution before it's time is less economical on all three counts. When a solution with a life of 20 days is replaced after 10 days because the stage of growth is now demanding a different NPK formulation, it could be said that was not thrifty management. So in some cases a solution can have too long a life to be economical. On the other hand, when a solution with a life of 10 days is used for a crop requiring only 2 growth stage formula changes, each 30 days apart, it could be said that was not thrifty management of labor resources, because replacing six solutions takes more work than replacing 2. So in other cases a solution can have too brief a life to be economical. The value people place on their time can be much different from that they place on their money or materials. Many would gladly spend a dime to save an hour while others would gladly spend an hour to save a dime. Perhaps the best practice is to seek opportunities to save an hour or a dime whenever the payback can be seen on a repeat basis, where the gains could be enjoyed over and over again. This is what the Bio-Buckets is all about.
  
  Solution Maintenance Required to Insure Plant Health
  Although a solution may pose no potential threat to plant health, most growers consider a solution no longer useful when it causes the grower to spend more time maintaining it than is desired. My Bio-Buckets are outfitted with a float valve, which continuously supply’s the system with fresh water, (tap-water, from cold line) not solution. As the fresh water dilutes the solution in the system the ppm’s go down, and about every other day (depends on stage of growth) just add your nutrients at the desired ratio to bring the ppm’s back up to the desired level, as you (add back) the fresh nutrients to the diluted mix which is already in your system, all you are doing is simply refreshing freshly diluted mix, and bringing that diluted mix back to it’s desired level of ppm’s. Needless to say, what is and what isn't a desired amount of time can produce a hundred different answers from a hundred different growers, but it can be assumed that less time is more desirable than more time when results are the same. Solution maintenance can be said to consist of two activities; maintaining the solution volume and maintaining its pH/TDS.
  1. Maintaining the solution volume is a matter of adding plain water to the reservoir as its level drops, generally replenishing the reservoir level to its full line. Add backs (another term for water volume adjustments). When it comes to add-backs, it has been my personal experience in the Recirculating bio-buckets that it is easier to maintain a more well balance mix when your add-backs are just plain-tap-water, and not a already nutrient solution mix, if your not going to use a float valve then predetermined intervals usually complimenting a growers schedule, or randomly at the grower's convenience. In most cases, in stead of manually performing and scheduling any repeated add backs, most grower may instead opt to maintain a float valve connected to a secondary water source such as tapped water line, or another reservoir filled with tap-water, to keep levels constant, and maintain that device only once each time a new solution is mixed and water replaced. Water volume adjustments are easily predicted after only one or two crops, if one keeps track of water use during those crops.
     
  2. Because of the plants' relatively higher absorption of water than of salts in the water, maintaining the solution volume is essential in a recycling system in order to prevent salts from over-accumulating in the solution. Since add backs are an unavoidable fact of life, and because any additional pH/TDS maintenance and adjustments are avoidable, a maintenance program that limits itself to only add backs will be easier, less time consuming to maintain, and less of a drain on your resources. Furthermore, in the interest of economy, pH/TDS measurements can be performed at the time add backs are made while access to the reservoir solution is already convenient.
     [/list=1]

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

pH
One of the most common reasons people replace their nutrient solution is because controlling its pH to stay within its range keeps them running in circles. As a solution ages and nutrients are removed, the ability for the solution to buffer against future pH shifts becomes less. Hint: As a rule of thumb, when running in a bio-system, it has been my experience that the closer you become to that 100% add-back mark that the ph will also begin to lean towards the ph of the original water source, here is were you need to have a maintains plain to do one of two things:

• Flush the entire system, and replace with fresh solution. This will not be a problem if outfitted with drain valves. A fresh solution has a pH behavior that's generally predictable, it will fluctuate but will do so within the acceptable range, thus requiring no adjustments or maintenance other than add backs. An older solution finds the pH wanting to run out of range (usually in the direction of the source water pH), this runaway pH drift constantly needs attention. At this point pH can start to become more trouble to maintain than the trouble it takes to replace the solution and return to the lower maintenance of a balanced and well buffered fresh solution. The problem here is that by the time a grower realizes he's been going in circles chasing a pH ghost, the solution can have already passed its useful life in other respects.
  
• Or, have a plain ready that would replenishes the aged solution? Or not, I have found that it pays to use mathematics rather than guess work when it comes to the useful life of your solution.[/list=a]
  TDS
  Using TDS as a yardstick by which to gauge a solutions' useful life can be tricky. That TDS drops 25%, or 250ppm, isn't of itself an indicator for possible nutrient deficiencies, or that plant yields will suffer because of it. The assumption often made here is that the starting solution was at or near the nominal threshold of the plants' ability to sustain healthy growth, thus concluding the reduced TDS to be well below the threshold, and possibly deficient in one or more elements. Since it's relative to the starting TDS of a solution, if the starting solution was originally mixed 25% stronger than the nominal threshold, then when the solution TDS had dropped 25% it would be at the threshold instead of below it. Plant nutrient requirements are not something that can be nailed down to the ppm, for that reason thresholds for many crops are given as a range of recommended minimum and maximum elemental ppm values (not to be confused with TDS ppm values). For example, a flowering recommendation might be given as N 40-100 ppm, P 70-100, K 100-200, Mg 30-60. To know your crop's limits is to be able to use it to your advantage. As you can see from the above example, a grower has a good deal of latitude in how he can configure his nutrient solution mix. A safety margin for TDS measurements can be built-in to the original mix by mixing the solution nearer to the high end of a crops' recommended range, doing so will also provide more buffering power thus extending the solution's life to a degree where it relates to pH stability. In other words, TDS can have an affect on pH changes, but pH has no effect on TDS changes, so TDS also plays a role in controlling pH.
  Water Uptake
  A common rule-of-thumb estimate of water usage in a greenhouse is about 1 liter/sq ft/day for vine crops such as tomatoes. It has been my experience in my bio-bucket system, that in-between maximum/minimum of water/solution uptake, (this is not a static time frame,) for a mature indoor garden under strong artificial HID lighting is about (1qt, US Gallons) per plant.
  
  Water uptake based management determines the useful life to end at a point where the original volume has been completely replaced by plain water add backs. For example, in my bio-bucket system, which has a total of 205 gallons of water in it, when the 205 gallons has had 205 gallons of water added back to it. This is sometimes also referred to as the 100% add back point. As you add back plain water, simply make note of the quantity and replace the solution when the total quantity of all add backs equals to the total capacity. For example, I have a 205 gallon bio-bucket system, 36 buckets/plants are using per plant or bucket 1 quart per day, that’s 36 quarts per day and that equals out to 9 gallons a day.
  Tow ways that I have grown in the Bio-Buckets
  1. To do a grow without a reservoir change-out, requires mathematical skills and a great deal of knowledge of hydroponics solutions, but can be done if you calculate your reservoir correctly.
     
  2. This other way will probably render a more piece of mind for the beginner in the bio-buckets, water uptake based management determines the useful life to end at a point where the original volume has been completely replaced by plain water add backs. For example, when a 25 gallon reservoir has had 25 gallons of water added back to it. This is sometimes also referred to as the 100% add back point. As you add back plain water, simply make note of the quantity and replace the solution when the total quantity of all add backs equals the reservoir capacity. It should go without saying that I have tried both of these methods and there are very little deferent’s between them.[/list=1]
     
     In case you haven't noticed, the determining factors behind a reservoir's useful life can all be traced back to the rate of water uptake, which is directly tied to the current demands of the crop. These demands will constantly increase as plants slowly fill their allotted space, often taking sixty or more days and spanning multiple growth stages before peak water uptake is eventually seen by the reservoir for the first time. As more water is being used by the plants, more nutrients are being removed from the nutrient solution, this naturally affects the nutrient balance in the remaining solution. In essence, the nutrient balance is also being controlled by the rate of water uptake. Simply put, a fuller garden space uses more nutrients because it uses more water. So what we have here is a direct relationship between solution volume maintenance (add backs) and pH/TDS maintenance. When that relationship is recognized, and this strategy enhanced to take advantage of it, additional gains in labor can be realized.
     Reservoir Sizing, to buffer ph and nutrient uptake
     An indoor home grower wanting a starting point for determining his reservoir size to go the entire grow start/finish, I have used this method with great success, here’s how I did it by approximately calculated 3 US Quart(s) or (2.839 liters) of reservoir water volume for each square foot of mature crop/bud canopy space. This is not to say, the entire veg canopy space of your grow, only crop/bud space!! This is how I calculate my overall canopy space, which in my case 33sq feet times two is 66sq feet, this is a rule-of-thumb what I am about to say next, I dived that total number of 66sq feet into two, which is 33sq feet of mature crop/bud space, and if I use three quarts per crop/bud space, that equals out to be 24.75 gallons. My reservoir size is 25 gallons, this gives each sq-foot of mature canopy crop/bud space, three quarts per sq-foot. This water volume to space ratio has been found to produce both low maintenance and solution life expectancies that can easily coincide with growth stage nutrient formula changes. Waste not, want not

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes Hardcore, Bio-Buckets—Playing Around Is Over!!!

Management Strategies
Time Based---Management Strategy
The "replace it every week or two" idea is usually safe regarding plant health, however, it doesn't distinguish between those using small reservoirs with large crops and those using large reservoirs with small crops. What really determines solution life is the plants' ability to transpire, which is a function of its leaves. This means that if you have one more leaf today than you did yesterday, that today you would need a little more water than you did yesterday because of the new growth that was born since yesterday. As you can see, water uptake is a constantly moving target, and while it does have an element of time associated with it, it's really controlled by the mass of leaves in a garden at any given time.

To adopt a static time frame for when solutions should be replaced, doesn't account for the scant water uptake from the few leaves found on small seedlings/clones at the start of a crop, compared to the demanding water uptake of what those seedlings/clones will become after 60 days once they possess the thousands of leaves typical of some matured crops. Nor does it account for those gardens using a reservoir size that is undersized for the amount of growth it supports, while other gardens might be using oversized reservoirs. Someone using the "replace it every week or two" method with an undersized reservoir might be safe when a crop is new but not be as safe as he thought after the crop has matured, while someone using an oversized reservoir may be needlessly performing six or more solution changes over a twelve week crop when he could get the same results doing only three changes.

Clearly, time alone and your nutrient solutions useful life doesn't answer all the variables taking place between different grows or the growth stages those grows are in at any given time. In other words, this method is tied to the calendar, not to the plants. I suppose it should be mentioned that I have seen some fertilizer labels suggesting very strong mixes to be replaced at unusually frequent intervals for the strength of the mix. While it's unlikely that crop damage would result from following such instructions, one can only wonder if such labeling suggestions are an honest effort to simplify use of the product or to bolster sales for it, or both.
Enhanced Water Uptake Based Management
Formulating the starting solution mix in concert with the unique properties of your source water can allow you to run a nutrient solution without making any secondary pH/TDS correction adjustments during the entire life of that solution, thus limiting your maintenance to only the unavoidable plain water add backs. For example, an alkaline source water will tend to produce an alkaline solution as more and more of it is added back to the reservoir over time. You can avoid correcting unacceptably high pH levels later during a solutions' life by adjusting its starting pH a bit lower to compensate. Similarly, to keep the ending TDS of a solution from falling below the nominal threshold for a given crop, you can adjust the starting TDS a bit higher to compensate. The advantages of making all corrections at one sitting are obvious, and speaks strongly to the growers' economy of labor. It's not all that different from making the kids pee before they get in the car for that long drive!

 

[BuzzBob]

Hey BT! --

Wow!!! This thread is Weed College! I just skimmed over a lot of it. You have certainly compiled quite a comprehensive set of notes!

Heh! You planning on publishing a book? Offering seminars? LOL...


Great Stuff!!!

-BuzzBob

 

[redbone]

Thanks, B.T. Baby!

Thanks, B.T. Baby!

Everything I always wanted to know about nutrient solutions. I'm in my first Hydro grow and wondered about all that stuff.
Have ordered 3 TDS meters and all three arrived busted up. That's fine with me as I'm very old school in that I don't like depending too much on technology. I look at growing as an art rather than a science. Am stoned, which is why I ramble....

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

BuzzBob, Thanks for your comments, it is my desire, that what I do here is thought provoking and educational, if it were not for people/growers posting there knowledge about how they do what they do, I would not be here to day. I know your just kidding about the book and seminars right?


redbone, Thanks for your comments, I’m glad you found the info useful.

 

[Californian]

Aeroponics

Aeroponics

We discussed this briefly, and I believe I could make this sort of system work in my aeroponic system. The only question I have really is the size of my reservoir. I run 10 gallons at the moment, quite a bit less than you do. I can raise the level of water in my aeroponic trays so that it touches the bottom of my rocks, or even immerses them if I wish.

The nature of aeroponics insures a high oxygen content in the water, but I do not have a meter to take a reading.

I might give this a try in the near future.

 

[Guest]

and you had nice words for me on my own thread with a little closet grow? Big Toke, I am most humbled....I just stumbled onto your thread...and tip my hat to you...awesome, just awesome. And your thread is truly excellent.

I've always resisted hydro, though I love challenges. You make me want to give it a whirl....but not in my closet....in wherever you got yours growin' LOL

Thanks Big Toke, I feel like you paid me some kind of tribute I don't deserve, but I like it .

 

[BigToke]

Bio-Aeroponics

Bio-Aeroponics

If it were my, I would raise the water level all the way up to one inch from the top, ten gallons is border line but I thank it would work, I would make sure that it had one foot droop back into the reservoir with a float valve.

Yes I do agree that aeroponics by nature is a high oxygen system, but you are changing the nature of the system so I would not rely upon that, do a waterfall effect back into the res, or add extra air

 

[BuzzBob]

Re: BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

Re: BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

I know your just kidding about the book and seminars right?

LOL... Well, maybe a li'l... But, seriously, you most definitely have the material here to form one hell of a Lecture Series!!!

I really like the way you present controversial subjects, and back 'em up with reasoning and demonstration of technique!

You can bet your bippy I'll be re-reading, and referring to, this thread many times to come...


Keep it up!!!

-Bob

 

[Hooked-On-Grown]

I agree ....your presentation is A+++
Did you just get out or are you still in college??!! LOL!!

Your English teacher would be proud!!! Bold titles and underlined main words.......bullets ect.........LOL!!!

Great job BigToke!!

 

[BigToke]

xBVx, Thanks for your comments, I to just stumbled across your thread and was taking a look and I liked what I saw, a good close attention to detail, imo you can tell if someone likes to grow by there grow room, whether it be in a closet size or basement size, close attention to what you love is the key!! And the grow room is a good place to start, thanks for stopping by, but I myself am just a humble player among some of the great cultivators here at ICmag, this is truly one of the great places on the net for growers.


BuzzBob, Again thanks for your comments BB, not looking to stare up trouble with the subjects of my post, just trying to help the grower


HOG, You could say that presentation is a big part of my job, and although it has been many years that I have been out of college, I did learn one thing, taking notes!! I think good presentation helps people understand what your saying/doing, there’s a lot of growers that’s putting down good money on building grow rooms, growing systems and growing equipment/supply’s, just trying to help out.

 

[Guest]

BT - excellent materials. I un a modified swc/aeroponic system with a 15 gal. res. Simila to a medical cabinet setup. The tank is above the res, approximately, 12" with waterfall effect. only add nutrients to the system and recently cleaned and puged my system. The ph remained consitant throughout the period.

I use lava rock with 3-3/4" net pots. I aeroponic spray on 15 min cycles, raising and lowering the nutrient level to the bottom of the net pots. I get excellent root mass and strong base support. I use an external mag pump creataing a nice frothy mix of air and nutrients sprayed about, as well as a 12" drop into the res tank. The entire tray is a 2'x2'x7" deep.

Perhaps I got luicky, but I looked for a system that is low to no maintenance. I did. Similar to yours. No muss no fuss. Just nice plants, healthy and strong. I also did a lot of research here, cw and og.

You have given me some ideas regading your thread. I spent about $250 for my setup that can hamdle about eight plants at a time, mostly indica. It is also an applicable system for SCROG users.

What is the deal about the skimmer I read on cw? Could you elaborate?

Avid

 

[BigToke]

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

BigTokes, Bio-Buckets

That sounds like an interesting system you have there AL, I would like to see some pic’s if possible: the ideal behind the extra skimmer was for people wonting to grow more than four plants, it was HurtBacks way of adding extra 02 to the system.