Basic genetics explained

[High Country]

WTF, do you have any idea of what you are saying?
If you are saying that S1 (Selfed on the single plant level) seeds, will be exactly the same as the mother clone they were made from, you are mistaken. They will contain different genotypes, phenotypes, for sure. For example, to keep it simple, if the mother was an F1 hybrid then the S1 seeds from her will be an F2 hybrid and express about 25% like the mother of the F1, 25% like the pollen parent of the F1, and 50% like the F1, this is all just in theory assuming no surprises pop up.
If you meant something else, excuse me.
-SamS

Don't know…I'm no expert in genetics…I was just having a go at producing feminised seed and it worked.

I just appreciated the fellow members comment.

 

[Only Ornamental]

@High_Country
The parable with the purine bases is plain stupidity and really not sought through... (no offence)
And the comment of Sam does only take one allele into account; hence the 25% are only with regard to that single gene (or the resulting phenotypical expression if recessive). Even presumably stable cannabis lines aren't homozygous enough to not lead to different phenotypes once selfed though the untrained eye (like mine) wouldn't probably see them (besides, only a few phenotypic characteristics are macroscopically evident).

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day HC

I always wondered when I heard you say the seed come out as near identical plants .
Not calling you a liar . I just thought your parent must have been very inbred so as to show less differences in the S1 seeds you made .
I`m growing some s1s ATM and I`m seeing at least 3 variations in the offspring . Differences in structure , flower set and terpenes .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[KiefSweat]

if your plants are Dominants AA or recessive aa the s1s will be the same for that trait(s)
mixed Aa plants will give you f2 segregation

 

[VerdantGreen]

yeah i think it's an important thing to know about S1s, and SamS explained it really well above.
an S1 of a true breeding line may well closely resemble its parent, but an S1 of a hybrid or poly-hybrid is going to give you a lot of variation just like an F2 generation.

VG

 

[Tonygreen]

Thats why selfing tests are good to help determine homozygosity.

 

[Infinitesimal]

true dat, planning on ordering some STS supplies asap

 

[Dropped Cat]

So when I grow out a bunch of S1 seeds, if all
similar I can have confidence the parent she is true?

Of course testing first for intersex traits prior to selfing.

And thc%

And terpine profile.

Seems easy enough. Its not like rocket science after all.

I'll get right on it.

 

[Infinitesimal]

So when I grow out a bunch of S1 seeds, if all
similar I can have confidence the parent she is true?

Of course testing first for intersex traits prior to selfing.

And thc%

And terpine profile.

Seems easy enough. Its not like rocket science after all.

I'll get right on it.

well lets not over simplify, it's yes and no.

it depends in which way are they similar, and in those characteristics are they similar or identical?

many observable traits that most people see as a single thing (like frost) are manifested through a complex orchestra of genetic programs expressing themselves simultaneously and collectively to result what you would call a single observable trait.

an observable trait in a plant is different than a genetic trait (any given allele at any given loci), meaning for instance with traits like the ones you mentioned, cannabinoid and terpene profiles, the observable trait is made of many upon many genetic factors... for cannabinoids there are genes that control the production of precursor cannabinoid compounds then genes that control the production of enzymes that convert those precursors into basic cannabinoids (CBG) then more various genes that control production of various enzymes that can convert CBG into THC CBD CDC and all the other cannabinoids... the production of, rate, ratio, and timing of each of the individual precursors and subsequent enzymes have their own genetic traits (certain alleles at certain loci) that factor into things like resin production and cannabinoid profile. i

 

[harry74]

Questions about S1 Twins

Questions about S1 Twins



The 2 seeds on the pic are S1 of Blue Dream ( clone).

I plan to grow them, probably next year, as I have many questions to answer:

¿Will this seeds give 2 identical plants?

Identical in shape,structure, identical in terpenoids, identical in cannabinoids.......

¿Will be like Mr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide?

I have grown 3 Blue Dream S1 and they were quite similar to each other, I can´t say if they were identical to the clone as I haven´t grown it.

Any toughts wellcome.

 

[KiefSweat]

if the seeds have two embryos inside there gonna strangle each other once they pop if you don't separate them

 

[harry74]

¿ Can this be considered as a DYSGENIC mutation ?

Dysgenics (also known as cacogenics) is the study of factors producing the accumulation and perpetuation of defective or disadvantageous genes and traits in offspring of a particular population or species.[1][2] Dysgenic mutations have been studied in animals such as the mouse[3] and the fruit fly.[4][5] The term dysgenics was first used as an antonym of eugenics—the social philosophy of improving human hereditary qualities by social programs and government intervention.[6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysgenic

 

[harry74]

if the seeds have two embryos inside there gonna strangle each other once they pop if you don't separate them

¿Have you got experience germinating/growing twin seeds?

¿Would you mind to share your experience if that is the case?

 

[harry74]

Even better.... I´m going to try to germinate like 5 even when I don´t know relly what they are, right now going in water

I´ll post pics if you want....

 

[KiefSweat]

they will crack and you will see two tails emerge, if you plant them one of them will always out-compete the other, so you need to separate them as soon as they get big enough but before the roots start braiding

The last set i saw this spring was interesting there was only one cotyledon on each seedling, but then they grew out of it, i didn't label those plants either so no idea what ones they are now.

 

[harry74]

Thanks KiefSweat.

I have put this 5 in wáter from my " Dr. Frankestein Stock"; will go tomorrow early on soil.

Curious about what comes out.

Will see; the seeds are all made with sts but not S1 all of them there were S1 seeds, hybrids and autos.
Not made my myself, I have never used STS.

The seed on the front is clearly of a different grey colour.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Harry

I`ve got the opposite .
Two cotyledon but no true leaves ??

WTF ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Dropped Cat]

well lets not over simplify, it's yes and no.

it depends in which way are they similar, and in those characteristics are they similar or identical?

many observable traits that most people see as a single thing (like frost) are manifested through a complex orchestra of genetic programs expressing themselves simultaneously and collectively to result what you would call a single observable trait.

an observable trait in a plant is different than a genetic trait (any given allele at any given loci), meaning for instance with traits like the ones you mentioned, cannabinoid and terpene profiles, the observable trait is made of many upon many genetic factors... for cannabinoids there are genes that control the production of precursor cannabinoid compounds then genes that control the production of enzymes that convert those precursors into basic cannabinoids (CBG) then more various genes that control production of various enzymes that can convert CBG into THC CBD CDC and all the other cannabinoids... the production of, rate, ratio, and timing of each of the individual precursors and subsequent enzymes have their own genetic traits (certain alleles at certain loci) that factor into things like resin production and cannabinoid profile. i

That seems fine. The similar plants will vary genetically, natch.
But certainly within a perceived acceptability of similarity.

So I can now move on to another project sooner than I thought.

Good post!

 

[Infinitesimal]

That seems fine. The similar plants will vary genetically, natch.
But certainly within a perceived acceptability of similarity.

So I can now move on to another project sooner than I thought.

Good post!

thanks, but again lets not brush over and over simplify the info... similar enough/good enough are not phrases I like to keep in my vocab and don't exactly mesh with the idea of a true breeding variety.

lets say you have a female with desirable resin production, cannabinoids and smell...

unless all the s1 are identical for those characteristics then the P1 isn't true breeding for those genetic traits... if its like 75-80% are similar to the original mother that was selfed then your likely looking at something heterozygous and when outcrossed to another strain or in crossed to a sibling (as opposed to being crossed with it's self) will likely result in 25-30% expressing the desirable traits to some degree or another but still not likely a complete replication of the original plant.

so again unless the S1's, across the board, express themselves identically compared to their mother for the desired traits (which is pretty rare when comparing the canna genome as a whole) then its not true breeding.

well moving on to another project would depend on how important it is to you, to have that female in a true breeding format... so that when outcrossed you can guarantee certain ratios of phenotypes among the f1 and f2 generations... if thats not part of your goal then yeah, don't waste your time if you are already happy with your S1's and that suites you.

if you are just trying to keep the variety alive, for yourself, through seeds, then that is fine... if on the other hand you want a true breeding variety to use in hybrid crosses and produce reliable results especially if they are intended for some type of seed market... then it sounds like you have some more work to do. what's more important getting it done right, or just getting it done?

not picking on you ... these are things all breeders or aspiring breeders should be thinking about at one time or another

 

[KiefSweat]

if you can determine the ratio's of the offspring, you should be able to get an idea of what generation the p stock was.