Basic genetics explained

[Infinitesimal]

yeah I'd rather find a few seeds per ounce than waste a grow on a bunch of average plants that show no intersex... that said I choose intersex free plants where possible, whenever I don't have to sacrifice quality... and I definitely don't breed looking for intersex lol

 

[Tom Hill]

those are defendable statements and goals.. that sounds like sanity..

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

if we breed for plants that produce exceptional hash, and not for herbal cannabis, then what concern is intersex or a crop full of seeds?

Why, is that all you do? I know of no one doing just this....
And BTW seeded Cannabis has less THC and less terpenes, does that count? I want more THC and the right terpenes.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

but u smoke clones, year after year and rarely add a new one to your stable am i wrong? what's that last clone u took in,, sleestack?

I got a couple that stood out in 95,, sk1 bred for early (hand pollinated by the skunkman) and Original Haze,, via positronic,, one made my friend rich and the other got me high.. So as Rob says one love.. but u still owe me for the hermies man..

and will? it's not your fault,, no seriously,,, its not your fault..

Which hermies do I still owe for? I thought you felt they do not matter? If that is true then WTF?
I do not have Sleestak as a clone, I did use it for one year. I have lots of new clones I selected, I use them for a while then keep them or give them away or toss them. As I have said, I use seeds much more then clones to breed with.
I do find myself keeping less and less clones as I am really just looking for unusual traits nowadays.
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

so the very same guy that pulled the cover on the need for clones,, the guy who seemingly understood the why and whatfors the need,, is now after treating cannabis exactly like strawberries,, arguing that it can or maybe even should be bred like corn? I dont understand..

You well know that no one is breeding Cannabis like strawberries. Are you? Is anyone you know?
Strawberry seeds are grown out by the tens of thousands for clonal selection after breeding them, who is doing that with Cannabis? I am one of the few, maybe a few others, maybe....

Strawberries are fine for you to use as an example but they are not even close to being similar to Cannabis, as a production crop or in breeding to me. Neither is corn.

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

so if breeding quality hash is the goal, then wouldn't that be an example of when we would be willing to use a partially intersex individual in order to breed the superior traits we find in any given specimen? especially if final yield isn't the number one concern

No problem, you do that, and I will try my way.....
Yield is important to most growers...
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

yes,, absolutely,, these guys are freaking out over nothing.. the end goal is all that matters.. and cannabis sexuality is no less complicating than breeding for yield,, it's not just something u throw on top of the pile of traits to breed for,, unless u have completely lost sight of your target.. in the end u can devote your life to those traits,, and come no further away from owing guys money for herming out their crop in 95... heheheheh,, dig?

So to be clear it is not possible to have Cannabis varieties that are free of intersex, or is it just a waste of time?
If it is no more complicated then breeding for yield, which is fairly complicated, but has been done a lot, then why so many intersex in a lot of populations? I suspect it is because they have dropped the ball and not focused on removing intersex in their breeding. hint, hint, hint.... dig?

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

yeah I'd rather find a few seeds per ounce than waste a grow on a bunch of average plants that show no intersex... that said I choose intersex free plants where possible, whenever I don't have to sacrifice quality... and I definitely don't breed looking for intersex lol

If you do not breed with a goal to not use intersex, the odds are you will have more intersex plants, take the time to screen your plants, take the effort to remove intersex plants, you say above you try where possible, as long as you don't have to sacrifice quality, why bother at all if intersex is so harmless? Breeding is not about convenience, it is about selecting the best to fit your goals and rejecting all the others, one from thousands and thousands.
I can assure you if you do not try and remove intersex plants from breeding programs they will produce progeny with intersex.
I say try and reduce the incidence of intersex, make it a bit easier for the people that use your genetics to make new varieties in the future, as well as growers that use your seeds to grow big crops from seeds or use seeds to grow out and select new saver clones for growing big crops.
Or not, the choice is yours....
-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Anyone ever thought about random mutagenesis (radiation, alkylating agents)?

I mean, take a more or less stable variety that will show intersex traits when treated in a given way, 'mutate' the offspring, and search for the individuals which show less or even non intersex when treated in said way.
This would be the starting point of a generation with a reduced/stunted 'intersex pathway' where we know that it's not luck/coincidence instead of proper breeding skills which reduced the intersex traits but actual genetic aberration.
As long as we don't know why and how cannabis tends to be subdioecious/polygamodioecious, there's no way of 'targeted manipulation' away from this likely polygenetic trait apart from culling and selecting without knowing if and to what degree the genetic make-up has been changed to our desire.
Not breeding away from intersex traits but changing genetic sequences or protein expressions will ensure that said trait really is gone for good, no?

Concerning the comparison of food crops with cannabis breeding:
I suppose that the latter is heavily (or at least way stronger than the former) influenced by hypes and publicity. Food crops, from my point of view not from statistics or whatever, go more with yield, bag appeal, and transportability of the product (i.e. what the farmer wants/needs... if not dictated by Monsanto or Syngenta) than with what the consumer likes. Cannabis goes with what the consumer loves and that is what they get suggested by coffee shops, seed banks, dealers, or growing friends. In the end, both may be the same, just that in one case the farmer and in the other the consumer gets 'brainwashed' LoL. Question is, how do we breed for something to come into vogue if not by using a clone which is hyped all over ATM?

 

[Infinitesimal]

Why, is that all you do? I know of no one doing just this....
And BTW seeded Cannabis has less THC and less terpenes, does that count? I want more THC and the right terpenes.
-SamS

absolutely that counts, I too want to have the best at all times, but if I am breeding anyways I will be glad to get seeds plus some nice hash... win win right?

I always assumed that was the case but also recently have seen bubbleman and his buddy take their fully seeded bud from a breeding round that looked really nice still even though it was fully seeded and they processed it into some full melt dry sift (using your method on most of it from what I understand ) that won first place awards... but that is what I wanted to know so thanks...

as far as breeding for hash well that is what I want to primarily focus on, I was inspired by RC Clarke's book that I am sure you know well Hashish where he suggests the importance of breeders using hash production in their selection criteria in order to breed strains suited for specific methods of hash making...

and I was further more inspired to consume all or mostly hash and edibles (as I believe you do as well) by bubbleman, though I will still hold a place for high end flowers... if I come across a plant in my projects that has the smell taste and high I am looking for but yields low amounts of hash while producing nice flowers I'll keep it around if it is connoisseur quality

No problem, you do that, and I will try my way.....
Yield is important to most growers...
-SamS

well I was thinking about strains like chem, ECSD and others that are great flowers and make lots of great hash make great crosses but are also prone to small manageable fits of intersex.

as far as yield, I don't care about most growers, I care about the patients I can help and I see a future in connoisseur niche markets... I like strains that are homogenous in their expression of high resin content, the right cannabinoid and terpenoid profiles resulting in the right effects... yield can vary with individual expressions and growing methods so again without sacrificing the above I would consider yield, intersex, structure etc. secondary traits to select for...

how many different genes control all theses different traits? seems like limiting the selection to genes that actually effect the quality of the final product should be paramount and non negotiable regardless of the extra work a gardener has to go through to get a seedless product or larger yield... eh but maybe I'm just a little old school

If you do not breed with a goal to not use intersex, the odds are you will have more intersex plants, take the time to screen your plants, take the effort to remove intersex plants, you say above you try where possible, as long as you don't have to sacrifice quality, why bother at all if intersex is so harmless? Breeding is not about convenience, it is about selecting the best to fit your goals and rejecting all the others, one from thousands and thousands.
-SamS

I don't claim intersex is harmless, though when it is subtle and a case when any gardener willing to give a plant special attention gets a special end product.. then making sure that parts of the plant is pruned and pulling off a few male flowers at the preflower sites etc. etc. becomes well worth it IMO.

I do have goals in breeding though they all revolve around the effects and the tastes... I would never use a plant that has full male flowers and active pollen all throughout the buds and plants... I'm talking along the line of many clone only varieties where the intersex is easily managed and only when no stable female from that line carries the same combination of traits... obviously an intersex individual would never be the first choice where another option is available offering the same genetic package sans intersex.

 

[Infinitesimal]

I can assure you if you do not try and remove intersex plants from breeding programs they will produce progeny with intersex.
I say try and reduce the incidence of intersex, make it a bit easier for the people that use your genetics to make new varieties in the future, as well as growers that use your seeds to grow big crops from seeds or use seeds to grow out and select new saver clones for growing big crops.
Or not, the choice is yours....
-SamS

I hear you sam, I think in some varieties though the risk is inherent and well worth it, I think all those markets you listed are different and various offerings would do better in some than in others and I understand where a sexually stable variety would be important to breeders and those who grow from seed crop to crop... that said back to my post you quoted here, speaking for growers, I would rather have a few seeds per ounce in an outstanding crop than an average crop fully sinsemilla. And others who hunt through phenotypes to find a keeper clone might care less about an occasional nanner from seed runs or a fussy individual who needs special care if they find a keeper of high enough quality.

of course I try, but for instance I am working on stabilizing a clone I found in a cross I made... it hasn't shown any intersex... though even if it did, if I couldn't find a superior phenotype that didn't intersex from the original seed lot I would most definitely use this one I have now for the awesome resin production great unique smell and taste with a fast uplifting happy social effect... then try and stabilize those qualities while removing any intersex traits (that thankfully has yet to exist)

BTW I am not talking about a finished product or parent thereof more a hypothetical plant that one may wish to include in their breeding process to attain their goal

 

[KiefSweat]

i grow my herb more like corn then strawberries, and I would much rather be growing seed crops then clones, bring on quality auto-fems if you ask me.

 

[Infinitesimal]

. In the end, both may be the same, just that in one case the farmer and in the other the consumer gets 'brainwashed' LoL. Question is, how do we breed for something to come into vogue if not by using a clone which is hyped all over ATM?

consumer education

 

[Only Ornamental]

consumer education

Wonder what GHS has to say bout that ...
Sure, where advertisement does the primary trick, education helps. But the cases where the seller himself does that are very rare. That's why I love ICMag!

 

[Infinitesimal]

OO for sure, I see a new horizon ahead though. the mold just needs to be broken, then the hacks will be seen for what they are.

there's only a few breeders I really respect and I believe do the best possible work...

Sam
Tom
Chimera
DJ
B of bodhiseeds
charlie from CBG
the ACE collective

there are a lot of other good guys but not quite the same level of expertise and taste in strain selection offered by these guys

the problem is that for the consumer, their understanding of cannabis in general much less the breeding process is akin to my grandmas understanding of how a computers hard drive works so a bunch of guys can hack and rehack strains together and build 70+ strain catalogues for 10-20 dollars a seed

 

[KiefSweat]

good plants make good seeds
good distribution sells seeds.
They're not mutually exclusive

 

[High Country]

A comment below from a fellow member when I produced feminised seed from Colloidal Silver a while back.

Thanks Scorpian_au.

"I think JWP is going to have to explain more. As far as I can tell it's pretty basic genetics that HC is going to end up with seeds that are exactly identical to the clones. Not phenos, no weirdness, exactly the same. Maybe I'm not remembering my 1st year biology stuff, but here's how I see it...

Each piece of DNA can have four states. A, C, G and T. Read the wikipedia article on genetics for the details. Say our (trivial) example plant only has 6 pieces in it's DNA. Plant 1 (call it the father) has a state of AAACGT. Plant 2 (the mother) is AACCGG. When they mate, you get a random selection of either piece from plant 1 or plant 2 in each gene location. In this case, the possible combinations would be:
1st gene: Father = A, Mother = A, therefore child MUST be A
2nd gene: A, A = A
3rd gene: Father = A, Mother = C, therefore some children will be A, some C
4th gene: Both C
5th gene: Both G
6th gene: T or G

So mating these two plants would give you four possible variations (phenotypes):
AAACGT (same as father)
AAACGG
AACCGT
AACCGG (same as mother)

Now, consider what's happening here with the colloidal silver. Plant 1 is now a father but the genetics HAVE NOT CHANGED. So lets say it's DNA sequence is AAACGT. Plant 2 is the mother, but it's the same plant. The genetics are AAACGT. Put the two together, and the ONLY POSSIBLE COMBINATION is AAACGT. There will not be any variation, as there is not any possible extra options to choose from."

A very interesting comment.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

WTF, do you have any idea of what you are saying?
If you are saying that S1 (Selfed on the single plant level) seeds, will be exactly the same as the mother clone they were made from, you are mistaken. They will contain different genotypes, phenotypes, for sure. For example, to keep it simple, if the mother was an F1 hybrid then the S1 seeds from her will be an F2 hybrid and express about 25% like the mother of the F1, 25% like the pollen parent of the F1, and 50% like the F1, this is all just in theory assuming no surprises pop up.
If you meant something else, excuse me.
-SamS

 

[Betterhaff]

A basic understanding of meiosis might help.