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Balancing Soil Minerals
- Thread starter m_astera
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RustyShcklfrd
Member
Question, cant any feather meal be considered organic, reguardless of the birds/chickens they came from? I also thought this was true with blood meal. Ive always avoided both because of this notion, can someone educate me?
R
Robrites
It might depend on what the critter that was wearing the feathers was fed.
leadsled
Member
Nice!. Please share where to get the stuff and what is in it.
It's my compost. Only 4 yards so that's not even enough by ten fold. The ingredients are alot of trim, old soil, stalks and stems, coffee grounds, egg shells, shrimp and crab waste etc etc. No tomatoes, no cucumbers, no banana peels or anything high K. In hindsight I should have tossed my extra amendments from last year in so it would be ready for this year. My post season soil analysis was about the same way....ish so I guess I went a touch hard in some areas.
RustyShcklfrd
Member
thats what i was getting at im prety sure as far as labeling goes, it doesnt matter wtf the chickens were fed, its all labeled organic. Same for blood and bone meal, it all comes from the cheapest of the cheap for the most part. At least thats what ive been taught, thats why i stay clear. If someone knows different please let me know.
Got my soil test from Logan Labs in earlier today. So I have been furiously trying to crunch numbers and figure out what to add to bring it more into balance. In the past we just sort of added what we felt like we needed, and added some fresh soil from a known recipe. This year I am hoping to get a decent grasp on properly balancing the minerals. Being so novice at it, I think I will pay for a recommendation, so I can compare it to what I "thought" I should add.
I read this thread a few times and took some notes, but I have a few novice questions that I am hoping someone would be willing to help me with. So I will get to them!
So if I understand right, the ratios are based off K at a 4-5% saturation.
P = K (or P2O5 = 2x K2O)
My P is still high from last year, it looks better, but its still high. Its about twice as high as ideal K at saturation. So my question is, if your P is higher than K at Saturation, when you balance your Sulfur do you use your actual P, or do you use your ideal P value.
S = 1/2 x P
So if my actual P is 1100, but my K at Saturation is 600. Should the S be 550 or 300?
Then I have the same question with Iron. Which I assume the answer to the first is the same to the second.
Fe = 1/2 x P
550 or 300?
Gonna link my soil analysis, its in my album if anyone has the time and doesn't mind taking a look at it. Gonna try to paste it into the bottom of this rant, but in the past I haven't had the best luck getting a visible paste.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=66252&pictureid=157569
Been trying to figure out what I could add. Obviously need to bring up the K, and the S without adding more Calclium. As well bring up the trace minerals. I think when the S comes into range the PH should drop.
Would like to stick with organics if possible. Originally I thought I could add the desired amounts of Potassium/Iron/Manganese/Copper/Zinc each separately in Sulfate form. Then if that wasn't quite enough Sulfur add the rest in pure Sulfur. Use Borax for the Boron. Although I don't think some of those are organic. So hoping to get some other ideas, and keep looking for possible organic solutions. Maybe use kelp meal for K, and a little S, then use pure sulfur the rest of S, but I would still need all the traces.
Also I really have no clue how to raise the Hydrogen, or why it tested at 0.
Anyways any input is appreciated and welcomed. I know everyone is pretty busy this time of year or they get paid to do this stuff, so I don't expect a lot, just hoping for a tidbit or two to get me on the right path. I am gonna order the Ideal Soil book, 1st thing tommorrow!
Thanks,
Mr^^
I read this thread a few times and took some notes, but I have a few novice questions that I am hoping someone would be willing to help me with. So I will get to them!
So if I understand right, the ratios are based off K at a 4-5% saturation.
P = K (or P2O5 = 2x K2O)
My P is still high from last year, it looks better, but its still high. Its about twice as high as ideal K at saturation. So my question is, if your P is higher than K at Saturation, when you balance your Sulfur do you use your actual P, or do you use your ideal P value.
S = 1/2 x P
So if my actual P is 1100, but my K at Saturation is 600. Should the S be 550 or 300?
Then I have the same question with Iron. Which I assume the answer to the first is the same to the second.
Fe = 1/2 x P
550 or 300?
Gonna link my soil analysis, its in my album if anyone has the time and doesn't mind taking a look at it. Gonna try to paste it into the bottom of this rant, but in the past I haven't had the best luck getting a visible paste.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=66252&pictureid=157569
Been trying to figure out what I could add. Obviously need to bring up the K, and the S without adding more Calclium. As well bring up the trace minerals. I think when the S comes into range the PH should drop.
Would like to stick with organics if possible. Originally I thought I could add the desired amounts of Potassium/Iron/Manganese/Copper/Zinc each separately in Sulfate form. Then if that wasn't quite enough Sulfur add the rest in pure Sulfur. Use Borax for the Boron. Although I don't think some of those are organic. So hoping to get some other ideas, and keep looking for possible organic solutions. Maybe use kelp meal for K, and a little S, then use pure sulfur the rest of S, but I would still need all the traces.
Also I really have no clue how to raise the Hydrogen, or why it tested at 0.
Anyways any input is appreciated and welcomed. I know everyone is pretty busy this time of year or they get paid to do this stuff, so I don't expect a lot, just hoping for a tidbit or two to get me on the right path. I am gonna order the Ideal Soil book, 1st thing tommorrow!
Thanks,
Mr^^
Hi Medresearcher.
I am not a expert by any means.
First thing getting a copy of soil minerals Handbook is very wise!!!
When I look at your soil analysis a few things pop out at me.
First off how your pH. is to high.
If you notice that your calcium is up to 80% it too is also to high and both of these are directly associated.
The more calcium a medium has the harder it is to move the pH down.
I also think that your CEC is to low.
If you would add things to bring up the CEC it would also raise the desired level ratios.
This would give you a chance to work with NOW a lower desired value then what it is now.
My #1 recommendation is to have Michael take a look at it.
Being Michael #1 fan I am getting ready to do the same.
I think your on the right path on first getting a soil test done But I now urge you to go this following step and have Michael Astera be the one to guide you.
Other Agronomists could have other perspectives.
Another great thing with working with soil minerals is they have everything that Michael will recommend and at a very fair price's
He laid it out to the grams of what I should add to/gal of my medium.
Ratz
I am not a expert by any means.
First thing getting a copy of soil minerals Handbook is very wise!!!
When I look at your soil analysis a few things pop out at me.
First off how your pH. is to high.
If you notice that your calcium is up to 80% it too is also to high and both of these are directly associated.
The more calcium a medium has the harder it is to move the pH down.
I also think that your CEC is to low.
If you would add things to bring up the CEC it would also raise the desired level ratios.
This would give you a chance to work with NOW a lower desired value then what it is now.
My #1 recommendation is to have Michael take a look at it.
Being Michael #1 fan I am getting ready to do the same.
I think your on the right path on first getting a soil test done But I now urge you to go this following step and have Michael Astera be the one to guide you.
Other Agronomists could have other perspectives.
Another great thing with working with soil minerals is they have everything that Michael will recommend and at a very fair price's
He laid it out to the grams of what I should add to/gal of my medium.
Ratz
Thanks for the advice Ratzilla. I just sent him a copy of the report and requested a prescription. I had no idea that it would be such a fair price. I assumed he was so big time he would charge a lot, but it was extremely fair.
Gonna give the book a read as well, so I can have a better understanding of it myself. I am still trying to work up my own novice prescription so I can compare it to his, to see how far off I am. I still need to weigh my soil though to try to calculate the #s per 1,000 sq ft.
I thought the soil analysis looked pretty good. Our P was down almost 50% from last year, still high but getting closer. The Ca and MG seemed really close to ideal, and the low K should be a lot easier to fix than a high K. I assumed the S would bring the PH back down, since there is almost none at the moment. Although I am beyond novice, so it is quite possible I am way off!
What I was thinking for an organic route, use Greensand to bring up the Fe, some K, and S. Then use Kelp meal to fill in the remainder of the K and some more S. Then elemental Sulfur for the remainder of the S. Just hoping/assuming the Kelp had enough traces to bump them up a bit. As well start using some TM-7 regularly.
I did notice that Micheal does sell all the individual trace minerals in sulfate forms, also very reasonably priced. Really curious/excited to see what his prescription looks like.
Thanks,
Mr^^
Gonna give the book a read as well, so I can have a better understanding of it myself. I am still trying to work up my own novice prescription so I can compare it to his, to see how far off I am. I still need to weigh my soil though to try to calculate the #s per 1,000 sq ft.
I thought the soil analysis looked pretty good. Our P was down almost 50% from last year, still high but getting closer. The Ca and MG seemed really close to ideal, and the low K should be a lot easier to fix than a high K. I assumed the S would bring the PH back down, since there is almost none at the moment. Although I am beyond novice, so it is quite possible I am way off!
What I was thinking for an organic route, use Greensand to bring up the Fe, some K, and S. Then use Kelp meal to fill in the remainder of the K and some more S. Then elemental Sulfur for the remainder of the S. Just hoping/assuming the Kelp had enough traces to bump them up a bit. As well start using some TM-7 regularly.
I did notice that Micheal does sell all the individual trace minerals in sulfate forms, also very reasonably priced. Really curious/excited to see what his prescription looks like.
Thanks,
Mr^^
Sulfur in the sulfate form is a neutral salt meaning it does not effect the ph.
It is only elemental sulfur that takes the ph. down.
A peep does not want to be using much elemental sulfur if doing organic for it is harmful to the soil life.
If using elemental sulfur know that it forms a very strong acid when combine with soil moisture.
It forms sulfuric acid the same thing that is in batteries.
The soil minerals handbook has much knowledge within its covers.
I don't believe that a high sulfur ratio in the sulfate form is harmful.
Another interesting thing about sulfur in the sulfate form is that it can be used to get rid of any cations that is high in the mix.
What adding sulfur or sulfates does is induce the sulfur to chemically bond with whatever other cation that is in excess.
Whatever kind of sulfate is being used bonds with whatever cation is in excess and leaves behind what ever cation it is attach too.
For example if you had a mix that was high in calcium and low in mag.you could add some Epsom salt.
Say both Ca. and Mg. were high you could add some Potassium sulfate.
This kind of knowledge is found in the Soil Minerals Handbook.
In balancing soil minerals start on getting the calcium and magnesium ratios close first.
Both of these should make up to 80% of your base saturation ratios.
With Ca. @ 60-70% and Mg.@10-20% both of these together should add up to 80%.
Your potassium should add up to 3-5% .
If you get this close your ph. will self balance out to around 6.4-6.6
Know also that negative ions (anions) will flocculate with cations especially when it comes to phosphorus and calcium or P and Fe.
It is the soil life that breaks these bonds and allows both minerals to be available for uptake.
If you like this kind of discussion you will find much information of this kind in the Handbook!
In your soil analysis have you wondered why you had no Hydrogen ions in your mix?
Hint-- ph. HIGH.
Ratz
It is only elemental sulfur that takes the ph. down.
A peep does not want to be using much elemental sulfur if doing organic for it is harmful to the soil life.
If using elemental sulfur know that it forms a very strong acid when combine with soil moisture.
It forms sulfuric acid the same thing that is in batteries.
The soil minerals handbook has much knowledge within its covers.
I don't believe that a high sulfur ratio in the sulfate form is harmful.
Another interesting thing about sulfur in the sulfate form is that it can be used to get rid of any cations that is high in the mix.
What adding sulfur or sulfates does is induce the sulfur to chemically bond with whatever other cation that is in excess.
Whatever kind of sulfate is being used bonds with whatever cation is in excess and leaves behind what ever cation it is attach too.
For example if you had a mix that was high in calcium and low in mag.you could add some Epsom salt.
Say both Ca. and Mg. were high you could add some Potassium sulfate.
This kind of knowledge is found in the Soil Minerals Handbook.
In balancing soil minerals start on getting the calcium and magnesium ratios close first.
Both of these should make up to 80% of your base saturation ratios.
With Ca. @ 60-70% and Mg.@10-20% both of these together should add up to 80%.
Your potassium should add up to 3-5% .
If you get this close your ph. will self balance out to around 6.4-6.6
Know also that negative ions (anions) will flocculate with cations especially when it comes to phosphorus and calcium or P and Fe.
It is the soil life that breaks these bonds and allows both minerals to be available for uptake.
If you like this kind of discussion you will find much information of this kind in the Handbook!
In your soil analysis have you wondered why you had no Hydrogen ions in your mix?
Hint-- ph. HIGH.
Ratz
Interesting, thanks for the info Ratzilla. Got the book on the way, as well as a prescription. Excited to get them both.
Hopefully once the K is brought up, the PH will drop and the Hydrogen will go up. Maybe it will turn out to be a better route adding the K, and traces in sulfate form. Sure would be cheaper than tons of kelp meal. Maybe ill order the traces in sulfate form, just in case its in the prescription, so I wont have to wait for the mail, after waiting for the RX.
We had a strong season last year, good average, no pests, almost no mold at all. We brewed tons of compost tea, and applied thin layers of compost several times throughout the season. I was actually nervous the K was gonna be high from all the compost, but I guess it was all used. Had a really rainy winter to, more so than usual.
Thanks,
Mr^^
Hopefully once the K is brought up, the PH will drop and the Hydrogen will go up. Maybe it will turn out to be a better route adding the K, and traces in sulfate form. Sure would be cheaper than tons of kelp meal. Maybe ill order the traces in sulfate form, just in case its in the prescription, so I wont have to wait for the mail, after waiting for the RX.
We had a strong season last year, good average, no pests, almost no mold at all. We brewed tons of compost tea, and applied thin layers of compost several times throughout the season. I was actually nervous the K was gonna be high from all the compost, but I guess it was all used. Had a really rainy winter to, more so than usual.
Thanks,
Mr^^
Remember you are measuring K on cec sites and your pH is over 7. That means your cec sites are beyond full...you have some free cations running around. Your best bet, if you are in pots, is to leach them out.
Here comes some speculation on my part so please don't take this as fact but merely as something to consider. There seems to be a pecking order in what sticks to the cec sites with Ca and Mg both seemingly able to bump K. This is how the high compost, lightweight mixes start out with so much K but it quickly drops. The Penn Valley stuff measured 15% K out the bag, a month later I was short on K...how does that happen? I think from K getting bumped from the cec site and then leached out
At that point adding more K to the soil is sort of pointless, K is not going to magically push Ca off a cec site. You might pick some up while it is soluble in the soil but sooner or later it is gonna leach off.
The better way is to foliar feed K and bypass the soil interactions. And that lets you use KSil which is very beneficial to fighting PM or bud rot.
Again, lot of speculation based on observation. So think about it, don't simply believe me.
Here comes some speculation on my part so please don't take this as fact but merely as something to consider. There seems to be a pecking order in what sticks to the cec sites with Ca and Mg both seemingly able to bump K. This is how the high compost, lightweight mixes start out with so much K but it quickly drops. The Penn Valley stuff measured 15% K out the bag, a month later I was short on K...how does that happen? I think from K getting bumped from the cec site and then leached out
At that point adding more K to the soil is sort of pointless, K is not going to magically push Ca off a cec site. You might pick some up while it is soluble in the soil but sooner or later it is gonna leach off.
The better way is to foliar feed K and bypass the soil interactions. And that lets you use KSil which is very beneficial to fighting PM or bud rot.
Again, lot of speculation based on observation. So think about it, don't simply believe me.
Thanks Milky, that helped give me more perspective on how it works.
They are above ground trenchs, it has rained about 5-6" since that test was taken, and I could heavily water them if it was going to help. Its a good amount of soil though, I would guess 100-120 yards.
Were adding 30 yards of fresh soil, which I am hoping will be a lot more balanced, should come out to be a 4-5" layer of fresh soil. Although I am pretty determined to attempt to balance the old soil before adding on the new layer.
Sort of interested in taking a new soil sample after this next rain storm, see if anything did leech out.
Thanks for the info,
Mr
They are above ground trenchs, it has rained about 5-6" since that test was taken, and I could heavily water them if it was going to help. Its a good amount of soil though, I would guess 100-120 yards.
Were adding 30 yards of fresh soil, which I am hoping will be a lot more balanced, should come out to be a 4-5" layer of fresh soil. Although I am pretty determined to attempt to balance the old soil before adding on the new layer.
Sort of interested in taking a new soil sample after this next rain storm, see if anything did leech out.
Thanks for the info,
Mr
Indeed indeed
K + competes with Ca.++ and Mg.++
while Na.+ competes with K+ for uptake.
If you notice the electrons charge of each nutrient it takes a equal number of H+ to take its place on the negative charge.
So in order to bump a Ca. ion off the CEC it would take 2 H+(hydrogen ions).
So you can see it would be the K that would be dislodge first.
Ratz
And where do the hydrogen molecules come from?
Are they acids; carbonic, citric, malate, oxalate and on and on excreted by roots, archaea, bacteria, fungi and multiplied by predators like nematodes, amoebae, flagellates and others?
Are they acids; carbonic, citric, malate, oxalate and on and on excreted by roots, archaea, bacteria, fungi and multiplied by predators like nematodes, amoebae, flagellates and others?
Yes they are, plus sulfuric of course. If my pH were high I would get some bacteria in my soil asap.
bamboogardner
Active member
Humphry Davy
Member
From what I've seen with K thus far, best to get it close to 4% and maintain that level the entire grow, wether through foliar as MilkyJoe pointed out or through irrigation with potassium sulfate (CHN has a very soluble source now from Yara), I would also foliar or add a little extra K to the res at 3 weeks flowering, notice the K starts to nose dive in the plant at that point, if you're not applying it in some way or have an amendment releasing it at appropriate rates with adequate microbial activity you'll be low by the end of the grow in pots.
Magnesium is by far the most difficult to leach away of the cations from my work, I'm now targeting Mg at 11% and getting plenty in the plant and in the soil.
I was pondering the other night, I see a lot of soil tests of recently mixed soils that are high in Na and K, the high K in my eyes isn't a huge issue as Milky Pointed out it goes quick especially if you're in a small pot, however high sodium doesn't do much good as our plants use very little in comparison to K.....so what if one was to plant a sodium accumulating plant and just dispose of the clippings when you trim that plant as needed. For instance salt grass perhaps?
Magnesium is by far the most difficult to leach away of the cations from my work, I'm now targeting Mg at 11% and getting plenty in the plant and in the soil.
I was pondering the other night, I see a lot of soil tests of recently mixed soils that are high in Na and K, the high K in my eyes isn't a huge issue as Milky Pointed out it goes quick especially if you're in a small pot, however high sodium doesn't do much good as our plants use very little in comparison to K.....so what if one was to plant a sodium accumulating plant and just dispose of the clippings when you trim that plant as needed. For instance salt grass perhaps?
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