Balancing Soil Minerals

[Microbeman]

Theoretically it transmutes into K and a single H disappears.

You can make a nacl soln, test for na and k. Add spectrum extra and then (a couple weeks to work) measure reduced na and increade k.

Again...off the record...but easily testable

One thing which disturbs me a little on the Tanio site;

When one clicks on Test Data one gets 'Coming Soon!'

Where is their lab which is used for microbe isolation if this is the case? Their list of microbes can be easily imported from India - cheap.

 

[milkyjoe]

I think the philosophy on P is use enough to reach tissue levels of say 0.5-0.7%. But no more.

Going higher is like using modern pharm drugs, there are side effects. And pretty soon those side have to be adressed...another pill or an actual root cause anaysis?

Higher P means tied up Ca, Zn, Fe and Mn. You reach the point where the next pill is more micros. But you also have tied up Ca which, at some point will favor the take up of Mg and K causing an imbalance in the plant

You may have to work through that if you are a veggie farmer in Chino. But we aren't...yet anyways. We build soil from scratch

Plus you are shutting down myco fungi and therefore glomalin. The very things that evolved to allow the plant itself to select how much P it wants through energy trade. If I am preventing that energy trade then I feel like my grow is more hydroponic like than natural

 

[milkyjoe]

One thing which disturbs me a little on the Tanio site;

When one clicks on Test Data one gets 'Coming Soon!'

Where is their lab which is used for microbe isolation if this is the case? Their list of microbes can be easily imported from India - cheap.

Valid points. Plus I can tell you what they list on the label is the base...there are definitely microbes in the mix not listed

And that is enough for a reasonable person to decide not to use them...I don't dispute that.

The further down the rabbit hole I g o though the more I run into this. Take a look at "structured water" if you really want a wtf moment...or energy created or used as electrons quantum leap from one orbit to another

 

[Microbeman]

The other consideration for the use of phosphorous is the source of the P used and the potential for storage in plant tissues of polonium and lead 210. This is especially true of plants which produce (glandular) trichomes. [according to some studies previously referenced]

Anecdotally, I have observed an apparent relation between P applications and incidents of some fungal pathogens (PM & botrytis) and erwinia infection. I also interviewed some grape farmers who 'seemed' to corroborate this affiliation (PM). Bear in mind that this is speculative.

 

[m_astera]

4-8-4 vs Coot's mix

4-8-4 vs Coot's mix

Mr. Astera

I just purchased your book, and stoked to dive in. Got the 2.0 off Amazon.

I also am stoked to find out you give recommendations from Logan labs.

I do have a question for you. In a above post you spoke about your 4-8-4 being the best of the best. If I added that to a 33%peat, 33%EWC, 33% pumic mix, and the little bit of lime you suggested earlier, that mix will compete with coots mix? Especially if I send over my soil samples before mixing in the nutes?

The soil mix from Rare Earth in Grass Valley has been by far my favorite cannabis mix ever. However Jami hasn't got back to me for over a month now, and I might move in a different direction. I am trying for 40 more yards this season. Thanks for your time.

50 YL-

I haven't used Coot's mix, or the Rare Earth mix, so I can't compare. Ag's 4-8-4 is what I've put together after fifteen years of studying soil minerals and plant nutrition, along with 20+ years of organic growing before that. It's what I use, and based on the re-orders from the same cannabis growers every few months it is working well for them.

Michael A

 

[m_astera]

Transmutation of Na to K

Transmutation of Na to K

So I looked at a periodic table and I am wrong. It takes an H and C to get from Na to K. If Tainio isolated a microbe that does that it is impressive

OK, I'm really interested now. Seems to me if Tainio's crew has this worked out they would say something. Unless they are afraid of stirring up too much controversy. But if it works, and can be demonstrated and replicated, why not publicize it?

 

[xmobotx]

That don't make any sense? Please elaborate, also how are things are cultivated differently...

seriously? you should use "doesn't" vs "don't" for your 1st sentence to "make any sense." I DID elaborate. w/o discussing individual researches in great detail, I'm not sure how much further I would have to go for you to get it? Then your 3rd phrase isn't a cohesive thought ~I don't even know what you're expressing?

essentially, my observation is that you're not seeing the forest for the trees here. OR, are you trolling this thread? I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to see my point.

ETA, i re-read my post & yours & though i feel the point is there, to be fair it wouldn't hurt to do some elaborating.

cutting edge micro-biology; living soil & why the rodale organic approach {more compost} works & can be optimized is a science not fully understood & currently being researched. i don't pretend to have invented recycling soil, using compost in pots or even biochar by any means {it's not new tech} but it is being researched & learned from & it is cutting edge "in/down" frontier

this mineral balancing tech is nothing new either. however, as mentioned it has fallen out of favor w/ the prevalence of NPK farming {a flawed paradigm} some carry the flag & the tech is seeing a welcome resurgence. hi-brix is a variation on the tech & these fields are currently being researched ~a culminative tech combining chemistry and organic biology. much is being learned beyond that which is being re-learned & it would be remiss to say it is anything but cutting edge now that we have today's technology to add to this old research

i suppose post cultivation analysis doesn't necessarily fall under the "cultivation" umbrella & will concede that particular metric. But, unless you're inferring something along the lines of "some pre-mesopotamia culture which perfected space flight & time travel had all this stuff nailed down," i'm still a little confused by your comment

 

[m_astera]

Phosphate, Fungus, Radioactive Elements

Phosphate, Fungus, Radioactive Elements

The other consideration for the use of phosphorous is the source of the P used and the potential for storage in plant tissues of polonium and lead 210. This is especially true of plants which produce (glandular) trichomes. [according to some studies previously referenced]

Anecdotally, I have observed an apparent relation between P applications and incidents of some fungal pathogens (PM & botrytis) and erwinia infection. I also interviewed some grape farmers who 'seemed' to corroborate this affiliation (PM). Bear in mind that this is speculative.

Second point first: I aim for *all* of the nutrients to be at optimal to luxury amounts. If high P is leading to fungal problems, what are the Cu, Zn, Fe, and Mn levels? Without balanced Zn, P will not be properly taken up or utilized. Without balanced Cu and Zn, the immune system will be dysfunctional, leaving the plant open to infection.

"The other consideration for the use of phosphorous is the source of the P used and the potential for storage in plant tissues of polonium and lead 210."

This is a whole 'nother can of worms. Every typical analysis of phosphate rock I have seen shows a lot of other elements, including radioactive elements in many of them. Florida rock phosphate has been used as an ore to extract Uranium from, and interestingly the Uranium appears to go with the Phosphorus, so concentrated/refined P fertilizers will tend to have a higher level of U and other radioactive isotopes such as Polonium. Most rock phosphate sources are also high in Fluoride.

My preferred phosphates at present are Tennessee Brown phosphate and fish bone meal from the N Pacific. The TN phosphate is very low in radioactive isotopes and Fluoride and has very low levels of heavy metals, compared to the Florida or N African phosphates. We've been checking the fish bone meal from the N Pacific regularly and so far have not seen any increase in radioactivity beyond normal background levels.

 

[Microbeman]

Second point first: I aim for *all* of the nutrients to be at optimal to luxury amounts. If high P is leading to fungal problems, what are the Cu, Zn, Fe, and Mn levels? Without balanced Zn, P will not be properly taken up or utilized. Without balanced Cu and Zn, the immune system will be dysfunctional, leaving the plant open to infection.

"The other consideration for the use of phosphorous is the source of the P used and the potential for storage in plant tissues of polonium and lead 210."

This is a whole 'nother can of worms. Every typical analysis of phosphate rock I have seen shows a lot of other elements, including radioactive elements in many of them. Florida rock phosphate has been used as an ore to extract Uranium from, and interestingly the Uranium appears to go with the Phosphorus, so concentrated/refined P fertilizers will tend to have a higher level of U and other radioactive isotopes such as Polonium. Most rock phosphate sources are also high in Fluoride.

My preferred phosphates at present are Tennessee Brown phosphate and fish bone meal from the N Pacific. The TN phosphate is very low in radioactive isotopes and Fluoride and has very low levels of heavy metals, compared to the Florida or N African phosphates. We've been checking the fish bone meal from the N Pacific regularly and so far have not seen any increase in radioactivity beyond normal background levels.

Agreed about the source from Tennessee. I also was getting some rock phosphate mined in Washington/Idaho which tested lower in the U isotopes. It seems to have been rebranded last time I looked for it and the price tripled.

The fishmeal sounds encouraging. Is there a link I can check out?

After years of promoting fish hydrolysate, I finally had the math detailed by a colleague which revealed that the 3% (approx) P acid used as a stabilizer contributed a hefty proportion of soluble P to the product (indeed practically all accounted in the label). I have ordered and used hydrolysate free of preservative but obviously it had to be used quickly. Truckers refused to deliver the bulging buckets to me

Observations in the lab showed it to be a superior microbial feedstock to the preserved H but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hypothesize that result. I would like the opportunity, at some point to trial preserving FH with lactic acid.

 

[m_astera]

Fish Bone Meal

Fish Bone Meal

MM-

It was fish bone meal for a P source, not fish meal. If you need a large quantity, ConcentratesNW sells it, as does Wilbur Ellis if you set up a wholesale account. Or you can order small amounts from s**********s.com. Fish bone meal is about 20% P2O5 and readily available to plants if there is microbe action happening.

You might try stabilizing fish hydrolysate with citric acid rather than lactic, as it is cheap and easy to find.

 

[Microbeman]

Ya I recognize that; just lazy but I would guess whole fishmeal to be a little better for alround microbial nutrient value. I'll see if Concentrates lists a link.

I've already considered citric but it has attributes as an organic acid I might like to avoid for what I have in mind.

 

[orechron]

I've found crab bits in the fish bone meal from concentrates. Not a bad find for what I'm doing.

Microbeman, what are the cons of citric for your purposes?

 

[Pangea]

I havent read into the AA8.2 extraction yet, but am happy to see the discussion on all the lab results and Rx'ing being futile as everyone(cannabis growers) is paying for an estimated or in-"effective CEC" analysis.

I brought this up way back in the AEA thread, and posted some relevant documents and quotes form them, https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=6524830#post6524830

Most soils people are having made or are making themselves are "soil-less" based, very few are incorporating top soil, and those that are are usually half or less of the "soil"

A lot of medium out there getting built and tweaked on bunk lab numbers.

http://extension.udel.edu/lawngarden...2/10/CHAP9.pdf

:
Soil testing laboratories do not usually provide a direct measure of CECe. Instead, often
the CEC is estimated (calculated, CECsum)

...Such CEC measures can result in values very different from the
CEC of the soil at its field pH (effective CEC or CECe)...

http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/nurse...CN ratio.PDF

:
Finally, to get the
most accurate CEC results for soilless potting mixes, the extraction procedure should be
completed with barium chloride. Using the barium procedure prevents problems from medium pH levels and provides a more accurate (usually higher) CEC value.

What kind of CEC methods are the labs using?
Make sure to specify that you are soil is high in peat moss and to request an effective CEC using a barium solution. I wouldnt be surprised if they charge more.

 

[xmobotx]

even if the results gained from logan labs basic soil test aren't precise, the knowledge gained will still help you fine tune your mix. esp. w/ organics, it doesn't need to be precision {particularly when you have good humus} but too heavy of a nute load is likely the most common mistake to steer people away from organics. if you follow many of the standard recipes {blood meal or dolomite are good red flags for instance} you will be lucky to get a single cycle out of it ~let alone a recycle. lockout causes the plant to manifest multiple "deficiencies" & the grower will remedy by applying epsom salt or misc concoctions to address the "deficiencies" complicating the issues.

when it's someone fortunate to have or acquire a great humus source, their success may mask these issues

testing clears the air. it's how i know this

 

[milkyjoe]

OK, I'm really interested now. Seems to me if Tainio's crew has this worked out they would say something. Unless they are afraid of stirring up too much controversy. But if it works, and can be demonstrated and replicated, why not publicize it?

Give Dennis Tainio a call. Nice guy and really easy to talk with. I do not feel qualified to speak for them

 

[m_astera]

I don't think cannabis cultivation is @ the cutting edge of nothing these days personally. It's not had to change. People choose to adapt techniques that suit input costs and locations. That beautiful we can do this but cutting edge os more inline with the latest disease resistance and alternative fertilisers what is not done for marijuana. This is the biggest industry horticulture.

People working inside the John Innes centre and such are @ the cutting edge of development...

OK, I went to the John Innes center website. You may wish I hadn't.

What bullshit. They are doing nothing except worn-out academic "what pays my funding". Get a grant.

Why is cannabis the cutting edge? Because *real people* working to further ideas they believe in invest their time, money, talent, and genius into their cause. Putting their own asses and assets on the line.

Not "recruiting gov't approved Phd's" to fill up lab space in exchange for taxpayer stolen money.

Are you kidding me? Cannabis growers do more original research and more gene selection and growouts to prove it in twelve months than these assholes do in their careers.

:example: How long did it take cannabis growers to come up with a body-centered CBD strain that runs 20% CBD and 0.5% THC, to specifically address issues like anxiety, inflammation, epilepsy and pain? Three or four years, and they have it nailed. We can grow several crops per year and breed them. So can the taxfeeders, but they have not done shit, and won't. Because they have no motive other than more research dollars, a career in research without finding answers.

My statement at the beginning of this thread, that cannabis growers are at the leading edge, stands firm on the basis of breeding and doing it fast, for damn good motives: personal gain and product improvement. BS like the John Innes institute feeding on donations and government dole? I don't think so.

I will stand by the statement that cannabis growers are the leading edge of horticultural, and genetic, and crop improvement science, and by a long ways. The mainstream is still trying to genetically engineer a square fucking tomato without flavor.

Love you all. Keep on smiling.

Michael A

 

[xmobotx]

so i really do have 3 points? lol, happy new year all!!

 

[VortexPower420]

You guys rock.

Happy 2016.

 

[slownickel]

The John Innes center has been a very successful brain trust that has developed seed varieties and promoted research in many parts of the world.

From your posts Michael A., it would seem that you are selling fertilizer and "your" book, which from reviews on amazon don't seem very well received by the more educated and experienced. Apparently you have plagiarized most of what you have written and then "best guessed" the rest? How funny.

Got a couple of sales out of this page it looks like. Congratulations.

 

[ValleyKush]

^lol^

I frequent this thread and have never felt pressure to buy his book or nutes... just plain good conversation here. Funny that you would make an account just to come bash. Says alot.