Michael, I did want to ask your opinion on application limits, Steve mentions 800 lbs / acre on nitrogen, even if using a slow release N source such as feather meal.. the problem is, if we have a C:N of about say 45:1, it would take years and years to achieve a ratio of 24:1, also the plants would most likely consume that amount and then some before the next test, i fell like you would be constantly depleting the N overtime.
Recently i have been adding however much feather meal it takes to achieve 24:1 for the top 6", and i till that in by hand. I then apply mycogenesis, as i apply it anytime i disturbed the soil surface. However i have noticed ammonia smell which is a sign of N loss, I'm thinking the reason the high carbon is not capturing all the N is the lack of O2 in the heavy amount of feather meal : soil in the top 6". Im considering using 10:1 feather meal : peat moss mix to amend into the soil to help aerate the mix I add, and with a 10:1 (weight:weight) the amendment should still have a 15:1 C:N. Any thoughts on this and application limits for other elements?
Humphrey D-
In my experience offgassing of ammonia N is an indicator of Sulfur deficiency, or an imbalanced S:N ratio. Methionine, cysteine, homocysteine, and taurine are the 4 common sulfur-containing amino acids. Soil organisms need adequate S to synthesize these. It's analogous to the C:N ratio: if there is excess Carbon in relation to Nitrogen, C will be offgassed as CO2 rather than incorporated into stable humus. If there is excess N in relation to C, ammonia will be offgassed, and this is especially true when S is deficient.
If the goal is to incorporate N into humus and as ammonium NH4+ on cation exchange sites, and to stabilize soil Carbon levels, all three elements must be available and in balance. (as a side note, isn't it strange that the people railing about carbon sequestration are unaware of the importance of S to stabilize Carbon?)
I was not aware that Steve Solomon was recommending up to 800 lbs/acre of N. To me that is dangerously high and wasteful. I have never recommend more than 200 lbs/acre of added N, and my general recommendation is 100 lbs per acre. Any further N needed should be readily supplied by breakdown of existing organic matter or by microbial fixing of atmospheric N during the growing season.Steve mentions 800 lbs / acre on nitrogen, even if using a slow release N source such as feather meal.. the problem is, if we have a C:N of about say 45:1, it would take years and years to achieve a ratio of 24:1, also the plants would most likely consume that amount and then some before the next test, i fell like you would be constantly depleting the N overtime.
The problem I see here is not taking the existing soil N reserves into account. The usual assumption is that soil organic matter SOM (as stable humus) contains 5%N by weight. If the soil has 5% organic matter, the top 2 million pounds of soil would theoretically contain 100 thousand pounds of organic matter and 5 thousand pounds of N.
Sphagnum peat moss is rather low in N, averaging 0.4 to 1.6%N source but many other sources of organic matter are much higher. A metric ton (1000 kg) of peat moss at 1%N will contain 10 kg of N. With a C:N ratio of 58:1 pure peat would need another 19 kg of N per 1000kg to achieve a 20:1 C:N ratio. This is assuming that only peat is being used and there are no other sources of N present or added to the mix and no N fixing activity by microbes. This is also assuming that one is planning to beak down (e.g. compost) all of the peat rapidly. Otherwise a 40:1 or 50:1 ratio of C:N should work fine.
I have not used chelated minerals mostly because I've never felt the need for them and also because of the expense. Soil biology chelates minerals quite well as they are absorbed by and made a part of the bodies of the microbes etc. In addition it is my understanding that most plants have the ability to absorb mineral nutrients in ionic form from the soil solution or from exchange sites. Probably the only reason I could see for using chelated minerals would be as a foliar or root drench if the crop had a serious deficiency because the needed mineral was not present in adequate amounts in the soil, and there was no other practical method of getting it to the plant in time to save the crop.Was also curious on your thoughts of using biomin chelated products for amending? I use them only when I see there could be an antagonism associated with using the elements sulfate form. For instance, if i have very high P, i will use biomin Fe over iron sulfate. I'm just curious as to how long the element stays chelated in the soil solution. If it was to stay chelated for long periods, i would fear the concentration of that element in the soil solution would be very high. Im willing to bet with a biologically active soil, the chelate is short lived as I believe they use those organic acids as a food source considering its N content. However ill be the first to acknowledge biology is not my field of expertise, so i leave those questions to whomever feels qualified to answer them.
I don't understand the reluctance to use sulfates because of the "very high P". P is not usually soluble as it reacts so quickly with any available cation, and if Ca is present in proper amounts P will likely be found as Calcium phosphate forms. In high Ca soils I will often recommend a Sulfur level equal to the "ideal" Phosphorus level just to keep the P more available.
I covered my thoughts on the paste test in my previous post in this thread; I'll only add that Zn is not very soluble in plain water at pH7.Ive been recently using saturated paste tests along with the standard soil test and have found some interesting things.
Before i dive into those findings, I have been using Logan Lab's agronomist's recommendations for saturated tests, i was finding that my results far exceeded his recommendations but the standard test did not show any significant excesses. Upon discussing this with the agronomist, he stated that those numbers should be considered minimums and that they may not even be adequate to support large plants. Ultimately I'm current working on determining targets for saturated tests with tissue testing and what little sap analysis meters i have (pH,EC,K,Brix).
I originally was following your Ideal Soil recommendations but found certain elements were testing at very low levels on the paste test when they showed they were adequate on the adjusted soil density lab results according to your recommendations.
Zinc is one, I've seen the 10:1 ratio mentioned a lot for P:Zn, however at this ratio I'm not getting adequate Zn showing up on the saturated tests. [
I've heard about huge amounts of P reserves showing up on total digest tests (e.g. aqua regia), while showing as deficient on "standard" soil tests, from Hugh Lovel and several others. While I believe that could be the case if a Morgan or Ammonium Acetate test was used, I don't see it happening with an M3 test at pH 2.5. The Mehlich 3 extractant is made up of acetic acid, ammonium nitrate, ammonium fluoride, nitric acid and EDTA-H4. The M3 test was developed to extract the maximum amount of P possible short of a complete digest.Hugh Lovel mentions the 10:1 ratio but he also is referencing a total soil test and from my understanding, the P levels are the only element that show a large difference between M3 and total testing with total testing showing more P. Therefore i believe a lower ratio of P:Zn needs to be targeted when using M3.
The Ideal Soil chart limits on secondary and micro elements are only there for a caution; there is no reason they cannot be exceeded if the technician sees reason to do so. They may need to be considerably higher in calcareous and high pH soils.I also stopped using the ppm limits on micro's. I have simply been using ratios of elements to elements for targets. Reason being is when using a high CEC, i was constantly hitting the limit on micros and found them short in the soluble tests.
Recently I made recommendations for a limestone soil from the Bahamas with a pH of 7.9. The M3 test showed 11,925 ppm Ca, the AA8.2 test 1106 ppm Ca. M3 estimated CEC was 66.10 meq, AA8.2 was 7.31 meq. If the AA8.2 CEC estimate was used one could easily end up with many elements deficient because the excessive Ca would overwhelm them. What I ended up recommending was to raise the numbers to 234ppm K, 117ppm Fe, 59ppm Mn, 11.7ppm Cu, 23.4ppm Zn, and 3ppm B, which would be about right for a soil with a CEC of 15 meq. Any high-pH calcareous soil will also need a good level of microbial activity.
At the time Steve Solomon wrote The Intelligent Gardener he had never written a single soil Rx and followed through on it. His entire practical experience came from using an Rx I wrote for him after telling him which test to get and sending him to an Australian lab to have it done. His knowledge base on balancing minerals came from reading the 2010 edition of The Ideal Soil and whatever else he picked up online. The same goes for his co-author Erica Reinheimer: her entire experience came from applying the recommendations she hired me to write for her California garden. I wouldn't rely on anything either of them speculated about during the production of their book.I dismissed Steve Solomans K recommendations, because with our high CEC, he would have K around 1%. However he recommended P=K, and I still use his formula which involves a log function of CEC to determine my P target. For my soils it generally ends up being around 600-700 ppm elemental P (remember that is with soil density factored, not the labs initial results). The equation is, (LN(TCEC)*159.3)-39.25.