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Automated PH Control
- Thread starter Uncle Bob
- Start date
Lets talk peristaltic pumps.
What is the difference between brush-type reversible and Synchronous motors?
From a quick search and read it seems that the brush-type reversible has a variable flow while synchronous are fixed flow. Also, it seems that the brush-types are 12v pumps while the synchronous are 115v.. I'm getting this info from the automated aquariums website that was posted earlier in this thread.
Is there any difference in the way the pumps operate?
What pump would be better for dosing?
Heres the automated aquarium dosing pump page:
http://www.automatedaquariums.com/dp_101.htm
And lastly, how about using dosing solenoids in place of a peristaltic pump? I know this was kind of covered in nut_jobs thread and know this would not be optimal as the mix ratios would be very rough when using multiple formulas. You could possibly use a measured dripper instead to counter this... Do you still need a pump when using a dosing solenoid or can it be gravity feed or either?
Please correct me if any of this info is wrong as i am trying to get my head around what would be better for our specific situation.
Any other info anyone can give me would be great!
What is the difference between brush-type reversible and Synchronous motors?
From a quick search and read it seems that the brush-type reversible has a variable flow while synchronous are fixed flow. Also, it seems that the brush-types are 12v pumps while the synchronous are 115v.. I'm getting this info from the automated aquariums website that was posted earlier in this thread.
Is there any difference in the way the pumps operate?
What pump would be better for dosing?
Heres the automated aquarium dosing pump page:
http://www.automatedaquariums.com/dp_101.htm
And lastly, how about using dosing solenoids in place of a peristaltic pump? I know this was kind of covered in nut_jobs thread and know this would not be optimal as the mix ratios would be very rough when using multiple formulas. You could possibly use a measured dripper instead to counter this... Do you still need a pump when using a dosing solenoid or can it be gravity feed or either?
Please correct me if any of this info is wrong as i am trying to get my head around what would be better for our specific situation.
Any other info anyone can give me would be great!
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G
Guest
Grownz - I bought the pH minicontroller and probe but not the pump yet as I wanted to do more research and the project is on the back burner now but I'm in no hurry. The Automated Aquarium dosing pumps are much lower volume that the AquaMedic SP-3000 at 50 ml/min. The SP will probably work just fine for me as I've got a big res and planned on putting the pump output right next to the probe. I think the SP-3000 is way too big for people with a small res and the Automated Aquarium pumps would be better.
Uncle Bob said the Automated Aquarium pumps are crap but he has offered no alternatives. Since he said he did some research I thought more helpful information would be forthcoming as to possible options. What pump is in the pH Nanny?
Uncle Bob said the Automated Aquarium pumps are crap but he has offered no alternatives. Since he said he did some research I thought more helpful information would be forthcoming as to possible options. What pump is in the pH Nanny?
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What other complete units did you look at besides the PH Nanny and Automated Aquarium unit? And can you provide some links, details or anything?Uncle Bob said:
I would also like to know what pump the PH Nanny uses and why you think it is far superior? Is a PH up and down switch really necessary?Uncle Bob said:
F.R.E.S.H.
Member
That controller is sick. Every Hydro grower spends so much time downing the Ph everyday.
I wonder how the amount of Ph- affect the Ec ? Does it make the Ec raise a little bit, or do the plants take all that Nitrogene you give them ??
I wonder how the amount of Ph- affect the Ec ? Does it make the Ec raise a little bit, or do the plants take all that Nitrogene you give them ??
G
Guest
You can always just put a jumper in those spots to switch it's function. As for a switch a set of male/female insulated quick connects would work or any type of male/female plug set.Grownz said:
Ono Nadagin
Active member
the pump on the ph nanny looks like a welco wpx-1
http://www.welco.net/index2.html
http://www.welco.net/index2.html
Thanks for the info! Makes it easier. If you are gonna switch between i like the actual switch on the front of the unit tho.adversereaction said:
I'm still wondering, the unit is open without a switch which is Acid which is ph Down? That right? So if you only need to PH downa switch would not be needed. Right?
Ono Nadagin
Active member
Grownz said:
Correct if you only need add ph down then you dont need a switch .. but at about a $0.09 cost why skip installing a switch... cheap added functionality
FYI- ph automation dont have to cost $400; heres one for under $100: http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-faqs/58098-build-ph-doser-controller-under-100-tutorial.html
Pontiac, that controller is a bit ghetto for me but great link for the money conscious!
The pump that Ono Nadagin posted from Welco is the best looking one and i'm sure is the one the Ph Nanny uses. Only problem is it looks as though you have to contact welco directly and give them quite a lot of information in the process. The plus side is if you do this they will send you out free sample pumps!!!
Here some more pump links:
http://www.iprocessmart.com/instruments_1.htm
http://www.williamsonpumps.co.uk/peristaltic.html
One more link, a member on here by the name DeadlyFoez uses welco pumps and a different Ph controller. His thread can be found HERE!
The pump that Ono Nadagin posted from Welco is the best looking one and i'm sure is the one the Ph Nanny uses. Only problem is it looks as though you have to contact welco directly and give them quite a lot of information in the process. The plus side is if you do this they will send you out free sample pumps!!!
Here some more pump links:
http://www.iprocessmart.com/instruments_1.htm
http://www.williamsonpumps.co.uk/peristaltic.html
One more link, a member on here by the name DeadlyFoez uses welco pumps and a different Ph controller. His thread can be found HERE!
Ono Nadagin
Active member
dont worry about talking to welco just dont tell them it is for MJ... jst tell them your hobbyist at hydroponics and you need it to dose for PH... the pumps are about $100 iirc
Ono Nadagin
Active member
here is a link to a inexspensive pump $68 with the good tubing we need and with a flow rate of 0.05ml per min at 3rpm.. It is the one I will be using and I am pretty sure it is what deadlyfoez is using also.. an APT Instruments oem sp100 http://www.aptinstruments.com/Merch...e=AI&Product_Code=SP100FO&Category_Code=SP100 they will also case it up just like the one DF built.
Another thing I like about this pump I like is that it uses 115/240 VAC, this makes it easier to just plug into the controller of your choice with out having to buy/rig a dedicated DC power supply... there may be some benifit to using a dc motor in non variable flow systems but I cant think of one that would make me go with dc over ac
Another thing I like about this pump I like is that it uses 115/240 VAC, this makes it easier to just plug into the controller of your choice with out having to buy/rig a dedicated DC power supply... there may be some benifit to using a dc motor in non variable flow systems but I cant think of one that would make me go with dc over ac
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Jesusbuiltmygro
Member
Makes more sense to stabalize PH than regulate it
Makes more sense to stabalize PH than regulate it
Instead of buying a gadget to make up for a bad setup you should manage your water so that the PH simply doesn't shift much and therefore needs little adjustment.
It's just a matter of using a bio filter and understanding PH buffering. The best example of that is probably Big Tokes Bio Buckets and this article on Basic Water Chemistry.
Honestly those automated gadgets are really more either extremely large grows or people who just like to buy stuff. It makes vastly more sense to save money and learn to grow with a stable PH. Your plants will also grow more aggressively without PH swing potentially stressing them AND with bio filters you'll get all the other benefits of bio like increased nutrient uptake, less deficiencies, better disease resistance and of course faster growth and overall yield.
Hydro without bio is like soil without organics. It's a major piece missing in the system and without it the grow has to constantly compensate with things like PH adjustments, rez flushes, and just a lot more attention in general. Especially when you consider most hydro growers fail to properly manage their water temps. You can get away with that, but it can come back to bite you in the ass pretty easily
It's more like the idea is don't buy a inferior gadget to the do the job that can be done much more effectively and for free by microbes. If you use good water management skills you'll reach a more automated point that most electronic setups because the natural conditions of a bio filter dynamically adjust far more intelligently than any automated control. Ecosystems are smarter than gadgets.
Anyway.. makes more sense to me at least. Why try to reinvent the wheel when nature has a better solution already. Plus looking at Big Tokes yield numbers I doubt you'll ever do better, so its certainly not a bad example to go by. However if you care more about automation than quality the automated controls might be easier to setup for you. Though I think this more or less is short term thinking since the bio bucket solution is free and the gadgets aren't and will ultimately need to be replaced.
I mean, imagine what happens if one malfuntions. Beneficial bacteria colonies can't malfunction. AND bio is the solution of the modern world. All the fish tank companies have switched over to bio because it's far less maintenance. You CAN buy the same pointless controls for fish tanks, but most people chose the more reliable, healthier and cheaper solution of using bio filters (though many of them don't even realize they are using bio filters).
Anyway most growers use some type of bio filter wether it be hydrotron or lava rock or any porous material. Lava rock is more idea since it lasts longer without getting clogged with the eventual gunk buildup. They also make cool plastic bio filters called bio balls among other names.
Anyway you'd be far happier with a bio filter manging your PH and increasing your yield than with an overpriced PH controller which only controls you PH swing instead of correcting it.
You definitely should read about PH buffer in the Basic Water Chemistry guide and check out how Big Toke manages water/nutrient add backs. He doesn't push the PPM like most growers yet he yields 1 gram per watt with ease.
In the end you'll waste a lot of thought and time on automated controls and the bio solution is cheap and simple and vastly more effective.
I'm always one to say you should cure the root of the problem, not just treat the symptoms. With automated controls you are just treating the symptoms and never curing the problem which is causing the PH swing. In bio the slow and natural PH swing is ideal and ensure nutrient uptake along the entire PH spectrum along with the theory that the beneficial bacteria reduce nutrient lockout from PH. It's a win win situation for bio and automated controls cannot compare to that level of flexibility or customized environment that bio brings. And it's more or less free and requires no specialized equipment purchases which is better for your anonymity though this may not currently concern you.. yet. However in a world of spying cells phones, GPS tracking, roaming wiretaps, Transaction data mining and traffic cameras on every corner.. you might want to consider be careful with the high end purchases than are less than necessary. I definitely wouldn't try to make a habit of buying that shit and especially from well known hydro/grow stores. It's almost certain the federal and state law enforcement are involved in some level of package tracking and of course grow shop stake outs. Every couple months some guy posts on how he supposedly got busted from a grow shop stake out or suspects package tracking.
Of course this is all the reason why you have to have a safe addy because even 250 watt grows get popped sometimes. You can't rely on the I don't order much or I order from many different places strategy. Though, hopefully with the liberals in office we can get a little less heat from constant abuses of our privacy. We will see. Somehow I doubt things will get much easier before they get harder first.
Makes more sense to stabalize PH than regulate it
Instead of buying a gadget to make up for a bad setup you should manage your water so that the PH simply doesn't shift much and therefore needs little adjustment.
It's just a matter of using a bio filter and understanding PH buffering. The best example of that is probably Big Tokes Bio Buckets and this article on Basic Water Chemistry.
Honestly those automated gadgets are really more either extremely large grows or people who just like to buy stuff. It makes vastly more sense to save money and learn to grow with a stable PH. Your plants will also grow more aggressively without PH swing potentially stressing them AND with bio filters you'll get all the other benefits of bio like increased nutrient uptake, less deficiencies, better disease resistance and of course faster growth and overall yield.
Hydro without bio is like soil without organics. It's a major piece missing in the system and without it the grow has to constantly compensate with things like PH adjustments, rez flushes, and just a lot more attention in general. Especially when you consider most hydro growers fail to properly manage their water temps. You can get away with that, but it can come back to bite you in the ass pretty easily
It's more like the idea is don't buy a inferior gadget to the do the job that can be done much more effectively and for free by microbes. If you use good water management skills you'll reach a more automated point that most electronic setups because the natural conditions of a bio filter dynamically adjust far more intelligently than any automated control. Ecosystems are smarter than gadgets.
Anyway.. makes more sense to me at least. Why try to reinvent the wheel when nature has a better solution already. Plus looking at Big Tokes yield numbers I doubt you'll ever do better, so its certainly not a bad example to go by. However if you care more about automation than quality the automated controls might be easier to setup for you. Though I think this more or less is short term thinking since the bio bucket solution is free and the gadgets aren't and will ultimately need to be replaced.
I mean, imagine what happens if one malfuntions. Beneficial bacteria colonies can't malfunction. AND bio is the solution of the modern world. All the fish tank companies have switched over to bio because it's far less maintenance. You CAN buy the same pointless controls for fish tanks, but most people chose the more reliable, healthier and cheaper solution of using bio filters (though many of them don't even realize they are using bio filters).
Anyway most growers use some type of bio filter wether it be hydrotron or lava rock or any porous material. Lava rock is more idea since it lasts longer without getting clogged with the eventual gunk buildup. They also make cool plastic bio filters called bio balls among other names.
Anyway you'd be far happier with a bio filter manging your PH and increasing your yield than with an overpriced PH controller which only controls you PH swing instead of correcting it.
You definitely should read about PH buffer in the Basic Water Chemistry guide and check out how Big Toke manages water/nutrient add backs. He doesn't push the PPM like most growers yet he yields 1 gram per watt with ease.
In the end you'll waste a lot of thought and time on automated controls and the bio solution is cheap and simple and vastly more effective.
I'm always one to say you should cure the root of the problem, not just treat the symptoms. With automated controls you are just treating the symptoms and never curing the problem which is causing the PH swing. In bio the slow and natural PH swing is ideal and ensure nutrient uptake along the entire PH spectrum along with the theory that the beneficial bacteria reduce nutrient lockout from PH. It's a win win situation for bio and automated controls cannot compare to that level of flexibility or customized environment that bio brings. And it's more or less free and requires no specialized equipment purchases which is better for your anonymity though this may not currently concern you.. yet. However in a world of spying cells phones, GPS tracking, roaming wiretaps, Transaction data mining and traffic cameras on every corner.. you might want to consider be careful with the high end purchases than are less than necessary. I definitely wouldn't try to make a habit of buying that shit and especially from well known hydro/grow stores. It's almost certain the federal and state law enforcement are involved in some level of package tracking and of course grow shop stake outs. Every couple months some guy posts on how he supposedly got busted from a grow shop stake out or suspects package tracking.
Of course this is all the reason why you have to have a safe addy because even 250 watt grows get popped sometimes. You can't rely on the I don't order much or I order from many different places strategy. Though, hopefully with the liberals in office we can get a little less heat from constant abuses of our privacy. We will see. Somehow I doubt things will get much easier before they get harder first.
Truth
Member
jesusbuiltmygro, your information is lacking. PH will shift no matter what, and either you are there to adjust it or not. PH doser's do correct PH. thats the whole point. Not everyone can be there to adjust PH, all the time. people work, travel, etc. depending on a setup, you may not have to do anything at all. light timer, ph doser, and a fresh res. refill, and you don't need to do anything for a month. some even have automated res. refill systems. all that is required by some is to raise the lights. but with just a PH doser, and lighting timer, all you will need to do is change the res when needed, top off when needed, raise lights when needed, and train them if needed. it is all personal choice, and I would trust a pH doser, over a bio filter anyday. because no matter what, the pH will shift. some people are in there changing their pH a couple times a day or more, some once a day, some once every few days. In veg, I've even had PH not move at all for weeks. pH dosing is just easier.
G
Guest
Hey Grownz and Ona Nadagin...thanx for the links on the pumps 
. Saved me a bunch of time looking.
. Saved me a bunch of time looking.Well said truth. With the root rot problems people seem to be having latley and the fact i like to use as little medium as possible bio-buckets does not interest me at this stage. I also already have a set-up and don't really find bio-buckets that appealing, well not appealing enough to go out and buy a whole new set up. (esp with your paranoia in purchasing stuff to do with growing) I would think a few different packages of dosing pumps and/or a PH controller would be less suspicous than lugging around medium, buckets etc. Just my 2cents.
