Are Organics people more snobby than other Potheads ?

[The_Leader]

No, you're confused... Nothing in GH flora is petroleum based. AFIK no nutrients are made from petroleum.
Refined nutrients come from mineral mines, not oil wells...

that saved me from tons of typing.

paz the aztecs had no mirical grow man...but salt build up still fubar their way of life.

just saying

 

[HeadyPete]

If you organic guys want to make it about your love for the environment, then I don't want hear another word about it from anyone who drives a car, uses electricity, or eats beef, or shops wal-mart. All the hydro in the world isn't doing a fraction of the environmental or social harm that these things do...

First off H3ad, this is a false logic argument. I care about the environment but how do I change 100 years of industrial human development? Not use electricity? C'mon, you know this is just ridiculous. Why can't my electricity be produced cleanly? Drive a car? I can't order GM to unkill the electric car, but I did buy a Prius to start to make a difference. I don't shop at walmart - ever. You can't say "well this is all too hard so let's not bother"...these things can be improved.

I can have love for the environment and work to lessen my impact even though I have to operate in a framework of technology that existed well before I arrived. Sorry I don't live in an all or nothing, black or white world.

Why don't we discuss the damage and pollution created from mining those minerals of yours? The mine tailings dumped into streams and valleys, the fossil fuels burnt mining for minerals, the damage, wars and death from extracting fossil fuels to run those mining machines, etc.....Organic nute production has much less impact on the environment than any mining operation. You will never convince me that a man made process is superior to a natural one that created and grew this planet we live on, billions of years before we ever got here.

and Ten Feet of Bullshit, where do I start with you.....

what i don get is why ther so much HATE. wher dis hate com from?? we all ganja` lovers. we all ganja growers... SEEN??


we as ganja lovers already get so much oppression. how come we fight wit each so much and caus mor tribulation?? if we unite under one entity our force be unstopable..

babylon will burn and not even the mighty sea can estingush the fire that set upon dem wicked. but we as same people need to come together to make it reality. otherwise they always going to be oppresing us and we nah be able to do nothin bout it...adn for waht. EGO?

i always lookn for better way to grow herb. everyone should. and no should dismiss any form just caus its not your prefrence,,,yah knoW>??

its all bout progression... if we not progessin we backtrackin...


end tha fussn. end the fightn. most improtant end tha war.

TenFooT

You post this lament on our discourse here but it is you who comes here with the worst attitude and rude big mouth. You poke your proverbial finger in every one's chest here and tell them they are the problem? Jamaicans can't grow, we are the problem, we are worse than evangelicals?!?! Those are fighting words if ever there was. Why can't we get along? Where's the hate from? Look in the mirror....

I don't think anyone wants to hear another word from you on this. You are the only one doing what you accuse us of doing.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

First off H3ad, this is a false logic argument. I care about the environment but how do I change 100 years of industrial human development? Not use electricity? C'mon, you know this is just ridiculous. Why can't my electricity be produced cleanly? Drive a car? I can't order GM to unkill the electric car, but I did buy a Prius to start to make a difference. I don't shop at walmart - ever. You can't say "well this is all too hard so let's not bother"...these things can be improved.

I can have love for the environment and work to lessen my impact even though I have to operate in a framework of technology that existed well before I arrived. Sorry I don't live in an all or nothing, black or white world.

Why don't we discuss the damage and pollution created from mining those minerals of yours? The mine tailings dumped into streams and valleys, the fossil fuels burnt mining for minerals, the damage, wars and death from extracting fossil fuels to run those mining machines, etc.....Organic nute production has much less impact on the environment than any mining operation. You will never convince me that a man made process is superior to a natural one that created and grew this planet we live on, billions of years before we ever got here.
.

Why don't we discuss the huge dead zone where nothing will live around the mines from which the components of your prius' battery come? There's some REALLY harmful minining. It's not a man made process. It's a way to use natural processes to their utmost effeciency.

You're a hypocrite bitching at me about the environmental harm done by my nutes, if any one of your voluntary choices causes more harm.

Unless you have some hard data proving how much more harmful mined nutrients are to the environment, that commercially available organic nutrients, then your speculation falls under the "faith" aspect of the organics religion.

If there were any scandal about how much more harmful mined mineral nutes are, then you don't think that would be the most effective advertising campaign the organic nute industry could use? If there were facts proving this, Don't you think they'd be crying it out from the rooftops?

But they're not... because there is no story there to cry out...
Just the same old tired holistic bullshit...

Yes, most organic growers are snobby. They think themselves better. It's obvious just from posts in this thread.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Gotta love the prius...

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.
“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.
When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Mined nutes don't do no shit like that!!!
hypocrite

 

[strain_searcher]

I guess the main question to ask is how many people posting here have mastered or come close to being an organic gardner? I like organic vegetables and fruits better no doubt . And my organic buds tatse better than well flushed non organic. I am far from a snob and actually think hydro growers are pretty damb talented. I also use chem nutes once in a while as well. The fact is the nute industry is always trying to come up with the next cool name and logo for products that have alot of shitty ingredients. getting the new unexperienced grower to DUMP really bad ingredients on their plants. A thread that is bashing organic growers is bullshit in its self. I usually dont even hear about organic grows because most dont brag about it. What ever method you use just make sure the herb taste smooth . For chem growers that mastered getting the chemical taste out of your weed thats awesome! There are alot of talented growers on ic so quit bashing each other.

 

[Stoned Cold]

I have to agree with ALOT of what G.Hs saying.

A tough position to hold, but maybe the more truthful.
One of the many things I'd like to reiterate; The 'organics' manufacturers would've been ALL OVER any evidence of harm done by 'refined' nutrients. The fact is, there is no evidence that shows any significant difference, between the two.

Also: Heady Pete: you may be an exception, but MOST folks who complain about the detriment of refined nutes on our environment DO drive shit cars and DO shop at wallyworld, then come here and bash peeps for feeding their plants!

I call on all you 'organic' farmers to look at your daily living habits, and tell me that there isnt a much greater impact to be made, ELSEWHERE in your life.

 

[jaykush]

this thread is funny, now everyone sounds like a "pot snob"

 

[PeavillePride]

this thread is funny, now everyone sounds like a "pot snob"

I dont know about that,but,mines better than everyone elses and if ya dont grow how i do then im better than you,lol.I only use organic water and nothing else,and i still flush for 2 weeks,lol. .Seriously though, I dont think my way is better than anyone elses,im stil trying to learn.But so far i will sacrifice a tiny bit of yeild for what in my opinion is better smoking meds than with anything else ive ever tryed so far.But,someone may smoke a bud with me that was grown with refined nutes or whatever and blow my mind,so you never know.Im open to finding the best Meds possible ,wether that be with strictly Organics or Refined Nutes,either way i dont care cuz the proof is in the puddin,so eat yer meat Dammit,lol. .

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

I can't have any pudding if I don't eat my meat?

 

[Babbabud]

Yes I agree its a combination of irrigation, and many other factors. But it cannot be overlooked the amount of minerals added to the soil... all these things together are def making a salt desert out of prolly the largest food producing valley in the nation.
Im def not here to argue over any of this just an interesting point is all To say nothing of the huge amount of herbicides and insectiside sprayed .

 

[HeadyPete]

So it's down to this then? We are going after my car? Show your source for this obviously biased info. These anti-Prius talking points have been around for awhile. Might be 50% more energy to build one (which clean energy will negate one day), but what about the V10 getting 14 mpg? Prius gets 60 mpg. What about the Hummers 3x greenhouse gas emissions every day it is on the road? How about that EPA pollution score of 2 for the hummer and 9.5 for the Prius? I guess then you are also a hypocrite unless you've never possessed and used a nickel, a dime, a quarter, etc. There is nickel in the hard drive of your computer and anything stainless steel you've ever possessed and owned, like a kitchen knife. Own any compact dics? CD-Rs? DVDs? Nickel in them and used in the moulds that press them. That mine has been producing nickel for a lot of things long before the Prius came around. Show me the data that says this result is worse than the negatives I listed that go with your gas guzzlers for the last 80 years. I didn't say my car was the answer, but it is a start. It's better than the Big 3 Autos lies that they can't build better cars, so just keep supporting Saudi dictators and the deaths of innocents. I suppose you ride a bicycle or public transit everywhere and live in a cave? You want to get down and dirty and quibble, I can do it too. That is not an argument you can win. This wasn't even the topic at hand and it is a diversionary tactic.

You fail to address the mining issue, ignoring my point. We can discuss all the harmful things we all do but the conversation was nutrients. You claim they aren't harmful, I claim they are because of the way they are extracted and processed, so you go off on a tangent about my car. Stick to the topic. I don't do marketing for organic nutes and can't answer why they don't use this to sell the products. Other organic industries do.

I never told anyone how to garden. I stated why I use organics and I am getting attacked for bringing up some legitimate points.

Tell me again abut how the mining, extraction and processing of refined minerals is enviro-friendly. Stick to the focus, please.

Stoned Cold, I look everyday at ways to improve my footprint on this planet. I have taken steps to better myself. I can't speak for others. I just can't listen to these specious reasons given and not respond. Many industries do not bring up the true picture of harm done by making some products. Just because the organic industry hasn't, doesn't mean it's not legitimate.

So far the only ones doing the bashing are sensitive and defensive refined nute users like GH and 10 feet of bullshit.

I call on everyone to reduce their impact. Like how Americans use 25% of the world's resources but are only 4% of the population.

 

[HeadyPete]

Nickel, Nickel Everywhere




Nickel Institute Reprint Series No. 14048
Reprinted from Materials World, September 1998.

It is an unsung metal, yet it plays many vital roles in modern materials applications. Peter Cutler raises the curtain on nickel.
Electroformed nickel microgear in the eye of a needle
FIGURE 1: Electroformed nickel micro-gear in the eye of a needle

Nickel-containing materials make major contributions to many aspects of modern life, but these often go unrecognised. The list is very long, and includes applications in buildings and infrastructure, chemical production, communications, energy supply, environmental protection, food preparation, water treatment and travel. All these areas rely, to some degree, on nickel's unique combination of properties.

Nickel is found in the first transition series of elements in the periodic table, and this position gives rise to its metallurgical make-up:

* has a high melting point of 1453°C
* forms an adherent oxide film
* resists corrosion by alkalis
* is face-centred cubic, conferring ductility
* forms alloys readily, both as solute and solvent
* is ferromagnetic at room temperature
* is readily deposited by electroplating
* exhibits catalytic behaviour

As this article shows, these properties mean that there are an enormous number of nickel-containing materials employed in a great variety of applications.
Stainless steel roofing on the Thames Barrier
FIGURE 2: Stainless steel roofing on the Thames Barrier

Nickel's role as a catalyst in chemical processes is perhaps the least-known of its uses. However, finely divided nickel-based catalysts are key to several important reactions, including the hydrogenation of vegetable oils, the reforming of hydrocarbons, and the production of fertilisers, pesticides and fungicides.

At the other end of the spectrum, nickel electroplating is extremely well-known and widely applied. The technique has long been used to provide both corrosion-resistant and decorative finishes, and is also used to create the substrate for chromium coatings.

Plating on plastics has enjoyed considerable growth recently. The success of the process depends on suitable etching of the plastic to provide good adhesion to the first metallic deposit. Once this conducting layer is in place, the component can be electroplated in the normal way to produce a very durable, lightweight item. Nickel provides the corrosion resistance and lustrous appearance. Automobile trim, bathroom fittings and electronic connectors are just three ways this process is being exploited.

Nickel electroplating can also be used to make items by building up thick deposits on a substrate. The surface detail of the substrate is reproduced very faithfully on the deposit when the materials are separated (Figure 1). This process is known as electroforming and is widely used to produce items as diverse as moulds for pressing compact discs and security holograms, and screens for carpet printing.

Nickel can also be deposited from solution without using electric current. These 'electroless' nickel deposits are very uniform in thickness and contain phosphorus, which provides superior wear and corrosion resistance. The hardness can be increased by heat treatment, making these coatings well-suited to many pump and valve applications. Other materials can be co-deposited -- for example, PTFE to increase lubricity, and silicon carbide to increase wear resistance.

A major application of electroless nickel today is in computer hard discs. It forms an extremely uniform, smooth, stable, non-magnetic substrate for the magnetic recording layer, as well as providing corrosion protection for the underlying aluminium disc.

Nickel's resistance to corrosion is one of its most valuable properties. The estimated annual cost of corrosion in the U.S.A. alone is $300 billion -- equivalent to 4% of gross national product. Far and away the largest use of nickel alloys is in the area of corrosion prevention.

Two-thirds of all nickel produced goes into stainless steel, to promote a stable, ductile, austenitic structure as well as contribute to corrosion resistance. The most common austenitic grades used are Type 304, which contains 18% chromium and 8% nickel, and the more corrosion-resistant Type 316 (18% Cr, 10% Ni, 2% Mo). The combination of corrosion resistance, cleanability, ease of fabrication, appearance and availability means that these steels are the materials of choice for many hygienic applications in food processing, beverage production and medicine. They are also increasingly popular among manufacturers of domestic kitchen equipment and utensils. These stainless steels are commonly found in many architectural applications (Figure 2) and are widely used in the transport, chemical processing and energy industries. The stability and toughness of the austenitic structure also allows these stainless steels to be used for cryogenic applications.
High alloy stainless steel and nickel alloy liner in a flue gas desulphurization duct
FIGURE 3: Installing a high-alloy stainless steel and nickel alloy liner in a flue gas desulphurization duct -- Courtesy of Mannesmann Anlagenbau

Stainless steels are highly cost-effective when all costs, including maintenance and repair, are taken into consideration over the whole life of a product. This is partly why the use of stainless steels continues to grow. For example, some highway authorities are now considering selective use of stainless steel reinforcing bars in concrete bridges to avoid the corrosion problems caused by de-icing salt.

Further additions of alloying elements to the standard austenitic stainless steels, particularly nickel, chromium, molybdenum and nitrogen, result in a series of steel grades with higher resistance to general corrosion, as well as pitting, crevice and stress corrosion. These grades are suitable for the more aggressive environments encountered in certain marine applications, and in the oil, gas, power and chemical industries. Increasingly, these industries are also using duplex stainless steels, (which typically contain 5-7% nickel) and in which the mixed ferrite/austenite structure provides a combination of high strength and resistance to corrosion (particularly stress corrosion).

Copper-nickel alloys have a long history of combating corrosion in marine environments. Typical applications include large desalination plants, which provide the water essential to development projects in various parts of the world.

The most economical way to use all these corrosion-resistant alloys is often as surface claddings on components. Claddings for pipes may be bonded to the backing steel before the pipe is formed. Alternatively, claddings on valves and similar components may be applied as an overlay by welding. Extensive use has also been made of a "wallpapering" technique for applying high-nickel, corrosion-resistant alloys to protect the inside of flue gas desulphurisation units for coal-fired power stations (see Figure 3). Adhesively bonded cladding materials, which are currently being developed, could also be used in these sorts of applications.
Cast high nickel-base alloy blades and vanes
FIGURE 4: Cast high nickel-base alloy blades and vanes in an industrial gas turbine -- Courtesy of Asea Brown Boveri (ABB)

Nickel and its alloys also resist heat. The combination of a high melting point, a face-centered cubic crystal structure, an adherent oxide, and good alloying ability has allowed nickel to form the basis of a wide range of heat- and creep-resistant alloys that are essential materials in the chemical and aerospace industries.

For many years, 80% Ni/20% Cr alloys have been used as heating elements. Additional alloying elements such as cobalt, molybdenum and tungsten provide solid solution strengthening; aluminium and titanium additions give precipitation hardening; additional chromium improves corrosion resistance; small amounts of carbon, zirconium and boron are important for developing strength and ductility; oxide dispersions can provide additional strengthening; and single-crystal components can offer improved creep resistance.

With all these variables, the composition must be carefully balanced and processing tightly controlled. This is true whether the materials are for ethylene reformer tubes or the gas turbine blades that make cheap air travel possible and are used to generate electricity (Figure 4). Remarkably, some of these materials can be stronger at their operating temperatures than mild steel at room temperature. Yet new materials continue to achieve still-higher operating temperatures -- for example, intermetallics such as nickel aluminide.

Nickel-based materials have a number of special properties that open up additional applications, Nickel-iron alloys have low expansion characteristics as a result of a balance between thermal expansion and magnetostrictive changes with temperature. Originally used in clock pendulums, these alloys are now widely employed as lead-frames in packaging electronic chips and in shadow-masks in television tubes. On a much larger scale, they provide one way of coping with the thermal expansion requirements of storage and transportation tanks for the growing liquid natural gas industry (Figure 5).
Liquid natural gas storage tank
FIGURE 5: Liquid natural gas storage tank lined with low expansion 35% Ni-Fe alloy -- Courtesy of Gaz-Transport

The soft magnetic properties of nickel and its alloys are employed in electronic devices and for electromagnetic shielding of computers and communication equipment. Coins and tokens can be produced with a tailored electromagnetic response, which aids identification in vending machines.

Equiatomic nickel-titanium shape memory alloys have gone from being mere curiosities to having real applications. Components are formed into shape at an elevated temperature. Deformation at the lower service temperature causes a martensitic transformation -- this can be reversed by reheating so that the components regain their original shape. The transformation temperatures are determined by composition and processing. Current applications include actuators, hydraulic connectors and spectacle frames. Superelastic alloys are closely related materials that can undergo large elastic strains without plastic deformation. Medical devices and mobile telephone aerials are two applications in which this property is exploited.

Nickel also plays a part in portable power provision. Nickel-cadmium rechargeable batteries containing nickel plates and nickel hydroxide have been in use for several years. More recently, we have seen the introduction of nickel metal-hydride batteries, which employ some nickel rare-earth alloys to absorb large amounts of hydrogen. These higher-performance rechargeable batteries have, in turn, led to improved performance from cordless power tools, portable computers and other mobile electronic equipment. The hydrogen storage alloys may find wider application if greater use is made of hydrogen as a fuel.

The future looks bright for nickel. Recent developments are expected to bring significant new nickel supplies to world markets within the next four to five years, and so the ready availability of these materials seems set to continue. The next century will pose many technological challenges. However they are tackled, nickel and nickel-containing materials are well-placed -- as cost-effective, long-lasting materials -- to be chosen for critical applications in tough environments and for enabling technological innovations to be exploited. Nickel will be contributing to our lives for many years to come.

http://www.nickelinstitute.org/index.cfm?ci_id=16&la_id=1

 

[Kendo The Green]

I don't find organic growers snobbier than other growers.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

The Sudbury mine in Ontario is the single largest point-source for acid rain causing emissions on the entire continent...

If we're judging people's product choices on how much harm is caused by the mining and refining of said product

Now shouldn't we get off our high horse and realize we're all trying to to the same thing, and using organic sources does not make one or one's grow "better"...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Yes I agree its a combination of irrigation, and many other factors. But it cannot be overlooked the amount of minerals added to the soil... all these things together are def making a salt desert out of prolly the largest food producing valley in the nation.
Im def not here to argue over any of this just an interesting point is all To say nothing of the huge amount of herbicides and insectiside sprayed .

100% agreement about the "icides" being sprayed... that and the salts in the irrigation water which are composed of elements plants don't consume building up over time are going to cause alot of problems for future agriculture...

 

[THCV]

wow, same arguments going on over hear as in the Big Secret thread. I guess industrial environmental devastation is on the brain lately...

 

[Dr. Buzz]

Sorry if I offended anyone.

I grow using GH floranova chemical nutes. There are some very good reasons people choose nutes that are similar, and it has more to do with convienence than anything else.

I'm not out to destroy the enviroment, to the contrary I am very much in favor of people being more considerate to our planet. It only makes sense. Sometimes it isn't practical. For example, I believe that the two 600 watt HPS lights that I use in my flower room create a much larger carbon footprint than the bit of nutes that I end up dumping down the drain. The coal plant that produces the power for my lights is a disgusting reallity.

That said, I don't care what people use to grow their medicine. Live and let live I say. What I have a problem with is the elitist attitude that is my way or the highway. Well I see things that are more grey than that.

I haven't used organics in hydro, but from the reading that I have done it seems to be more time consuming and advanced technique. Look at aquaponics, it is a very natural and fairly inexpensive way to provide nutes to your garden. Problem is it's practical application to a gardener that has barely a closet for a growspace. Not to even mention PH issues.

I'm not going to knock those that believe in the organic way. I also don't knock Christians either. Both practice great dicipline in their lives which is somthing that we all should admire. Both also rely on a deal of faith that isn't always able to be proven. Given this I believe there is room in this world for both camps.

Peace

 

[Kendo The Green]

I prefer organic gardening and have had fantastic results in both hydro and soil, HOWEVER> . . . for ease of use there is nothing tha beats ready to use nutes.
I used AN's heavy harvest two years in a row outdoors with off the chain results. Nothing beats hand tilling a few cups of time release ferts in and not have any others fertilizing chores for another couple of weeks.
Organics I was constantly tending batches of blooming cultures and contrary to popular opinion Organic can be less forgiving than chem. Once you get a soil hot with organics flushing doesn't always stop/leach the issue away.

 

[Stoned Cold]

...would I be ignorant to think that nobody means to attack/offend/argue with anybody? It's obvious there is plenty of intelligence here, as well as perspective.
Keep in mind guys and gals; MOST of us, would get along in a real world setting, so remember that while our goals and ideas arent identical, they are VERY much alike!

Outside the box thought:

I wonder if there was a safe way to dispose of salt buildups in say, the Dead Sea.
I'm sure there is an 'organic process' SOMEWHERE on this earth, that could either benefit or atleast sustain such levels of salt. Yes? No? Maybe?...Hmmmmmmmmmm?

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

No, you're confused... Nothing in GH flora is petroleum based. AFIK no nutrients are made from petroleum.
Refined nutrients come from mineral mines, not oil wells...

I am not talking of brands here, or however a brand chose to term their products. originally, the term 'refined' when it relates to chem nutes is because the origin is indeed an oil-well, and thus needs refinement at the refinery :wink: we can also refine other things from other sources, sure, as in the case of mineral refinements, which even if they are organic also build up salts. herbicides and pesticides are also petrol derived many times.