any kiss users have exp. with veg+bloom

[Shafto]

I was interested to try it out at first, but as soon as I saw the price I just laughed and closed the page.

The price is absurd for a powdered nute, I don't give a shit if there are gold flakes in it. All the extra fulvics and aminos and carbs compared to something like Maxibloom I'm sure helps some bit, but I've tried all these additives in one form or another, and they really don't make very much difference, if at all.

If you grow your personal stash like a connoisseur and slave over EVERY detail with environment and genetics then this stuff MIGHT be worth it on a small scale.

Netprof please don't get all butt-hurt about this and attack me like you do everyone else who has anything negative to say about these nutes.

On another note, what kinda cal-mag are you using Rives? I get a 4L of magical by technaflora for $45 and use it at 1ml/gallon. My plants drink 85 gallons a day and it almost lasts me an entire grow. For a 1K grow it would last you about 8 crops for $45, hardly anything near expensive. I suppose depending on your water you might have to use more, but I don't think I have much cal-mag in my source water, I'm on 7.0ph tap that reads 0.0EC on my guardians. I haven't ever bothered to have an analysis done.

Edit: I stoned boobed my math. I refill 85 gallons every two days, so it lasts me twice as long as I said it does.

 

[kushie]

I just plugged everything into my nutrient calculator, and to get the CNS17 to approximate the overall ppm achieved with 5 grams/gln of V+B it requires 30ml/gln of the CNS17 (the instructions call for 10ml per liter). Using your cost figures, a 20 gallon reservoir would cost $6.20 with V+B and $4.80 with CNS17. I don't know where you got your dosage levels for the CNS17, but it looks pretty weak.

I go off numbers in the res. not what calculators or manufacturers tell me. Adding 5.5 grams of veg+bloom and adding 15ml of cns17 coco and soil grow gets me same ec on my meter. That is the real world usage amounts in my room.

Everyone will be different. So that is a good method for math.

I try to not burn my girls via overfeeding. Look at "the fire" pics posted and I see overfeeding and tip burn.

Some folks do use nutes at those rates I don't feel it is needed and do not want to burn my girls.

Reason I used cns17 for comparison because I knew it was about the same price as one pound of veg+bloom. I do not have any vested interest in any brand...

Will be able to base more on my experience, but that takes time to play out.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[rives]

On another note, what kinda cal-mag are you using Rives? I get a 4L of magical by technaflora for $45 and use it at 1ml/gallon. My plants drink 85 gallons a day and it almost lasts me an entire grow. For a 1K grow it would last you about 8 crops for $45, hardly anything near expensive. I suppose depending on your water you might have to use more, but I don't think I have much cal-mag in my source water, I'm on 7.0ph tap that reads 0.0EC on my guardians. I haven't ever bothered to have an analysis done.

I've been using Botanicare CalMag Plus, Shafto. I have to run 8ml/gln to get my bonsai moms up to where they stop showing a deficiency (still a bit marginal), and 10 would probably be better. This is on a system with blumats and Osmocote Plus. What are you using for a base nutrient?

 

[TribalSeeds]

Thank you elvme2! Very much appreciated sir.

I know I may sound like a snake oil agent at times, but I assure everyone here I have no vested interest in ANY of these products at all. I do not sell any nutrients or additives and I have no deal with anyone...no kickbacks....no nothing......the sole purpose to any of my post is to help educate and provide accurate data about the product, good or BAD. If its crap, I will be the FIRST you hear scream......

I like to think of us as a type of "Consumers Guide" if you will, but only for Horticulture. If I smell a fish.....

If you guys want things to get better, then you have to do something, they will not just get better magically because you "hope" they do.....and when a product comes along that is exceptional, you need to let people know about it.........

When you guys are calculating cost, you need to make sure you COUNT everything, meaning the cost of cal/mag (would not need with V+B) and the cost of root inoculates (would not need with V+B), the cost of a Drip Clean product is not needed with V+B, then lets not forget the flowering boosters and how much they cost......now lets add the cost of enzyme products as well as a amino product (price the cost of amino treatment by House & Garden...I double DARE you.....LOL!!

Most all nutrient products need cal/mag additives, CNS17 to be fair in most cases will not need cal/mag but you get a really hungry lady in the house and CNS17 will fall short in the cal/mag department.....

Oh ya lets not forget the price of a Fulvic additive.....and for the record, you could NOT even buy a equal fulvic as V+B carries, even if you wanted too....The fulvic isolate in V+B has a lower molecular structure/weight than ANY other on the market......making it the most bio-active fulvic available or plant available fulvic....Fulvic additives make a HUGE difference in final outcome......they are valuable in many ways and will improve upon the availability of nutrients greatly....

Then there are all the growth stimulator and vitamins that V+B carries a LARGE array of.....not in CNS17....and the FEW things that you do find in both products, if you look close you will see that other nutrients brands like CNS17 may have them, but not in the right amounts and usually not from the right source, i.e. - Amoniacal nitrogen

Now first off to be fare, CNS17 is nowhere near as complete as V+B. It is not as clean either, when tested in a UC system it caused problems for example and was a ROYAL pain in the ass to deal with in general. CNS17 does not work well in ALL garden types....V+B does!

CNS17 does not make a hard water formula or a RO formula for that matter......

CNS17 (Botanicare) will NOT accept a sample of your source water, then analysis it, and then adjust there CNS17 formula ESPECIALLY FOR YOU!!!! Read that line a couple times folks, make SURE it sinks in to the noodle.....

CNS17 last I checked does NOT offer a ammonia free formula at ALL!

I could go on as there is MUCH more differences that are in V+B favor.......

Let us also think about time....time is usually very important to people that are smart enough to realize that time is EVERYTHING really!!

Hard to put a price on that as well.......

Now do you honestly think that CNS17 should even be compared to V+B??? Not in my book.....apples and oranges people....

And I should add that if you ran a side by side with CNS17 and V+B, and your V+B side did not blow the doors off your CNS17 side, they you simply did something wrong or there was some condition or value out of range, plain and simple.....no way in hell CNS17 will perform as well as V+B, it just does not contain many things that are found in V+B...no way, no how.......

I should also add that I think Botanicare is a good company that makes great products. There Pure Blend Pro line has been in many elite gardens over the years and has withstood the test of time......it is legendary practically....but honestly CNS17 is a good product, but not a great product. There are just to many "scenarios" if you will that will not work well with CNS17...Botanicare has much better products that CNS17, even the 3 part Tri-Flex line will out perform CNS17 and has does so in previous testing.

The Aquashield product is one of the BEST on the market in its class PERIOD for a hydro application like DWC or RDWC...

Clearex is a AWESOME and unmatched product that every Gardner should be using in DWC or RDWC at the last week of flushing.....this stuff when applied correctly, most get it wrong however, but when you use it the right way it will GREATLY improve upon the final product.

Im sure I am forgetting some products.....but you get the idea I hope.

Ive used both and have had my problems with CNS17 Bloom formula... but to suggest that V+B is cleaner than CNS17 is an absolute joke.
CNS17 is not the cleanest nute and has some bubbles and what not, but Ive never seen glue at the bottom of my buckets when using CNS. The only time Ive had a cloudy res with CNS17 was when I had a bad bottle of Bloom.
Are there any other companies using anything like Drip Clean? I thought it was proprietary and you couldnt buy it from another company.
This company has access to humic acid that no other company in the world touches? Awesome!

 

[netprophet]

ya I burned the dairy queen for sure @ 1.4-1.5 I should have kept her lower in the 1.1-1.3 range plus my temps were out of control my first 10 days of flower 88+ degrees but my shit still came through. I have this other OG x Train Wreck that is taking 1.9-2.0 EC Veg+Bloom and blowing up so I think it's just a genetic thing

 

[Shafto]

I've been using Botanicare CalMag Plus, Shafto. I have to run 8ml/gln to get my bonsai moms up to where they stop showing a deficiency (still a bit marginal), and 10 would probably be better. This is on a system with blumats and Osmocote Plus. What are you using for a base nutrient?

Wow, 10ml/gallon. I think my EC would be 0.5-0.6 from just cal-mag if I did that with mag-i-cal, I think it must be more potent.

I use jack's hydroponic + calnit at 3/2 ratio for veg and first two weeks of flower. While using jack's I don't really use any calmag unless I'm in new hydroton, then I find I have to use some. After two weeks in flower I switch to Maxibloom with mag-i-cal and liquid koolbloom at 1ml/gallon each.

It's dirt cheap, and works great, 24 days in:

 

[rives]

I use jack's hydroponic + calnit at 3/2 ratio for veg and first two weeks of flower. While using jack's I don't really use any calmag unless I'm in new hydroton, then I find I have to use some. After two weeks in flower I switch to Maxibloom with mag-i-cal and liquid koolbloom at 1ml/gallon each.

It's dirt cheap, and works great, 24 days in:

Looks great, Shafto. I actually bought Jack's before my last run and have it sitting on the shelf. When I started reading about the people's experience with V+B, the ratio of Ca:Mg struck me as something that I'd like to try, particularly after reading Yosemite Sam & SeaMaiden's thoughts on the subject. For me, the cost is pretty inconsequential - I think that my entire last run was a bit less than $10 for nutrients, which worked out to being less than a $1 per zip of finished bud. Pretty doable.

 

[Shafto]

Looks great, Shafto. I actually bought Jack's before my last run and have it sitting on the shelf. When I started reading about the people's experience with V+B, the ratio of Ca:Mg struck me as something that I'd like to try, particularly after reading Yosemite Sam & SeaMaiden's thoughts on the subject. For me, the cost is pretty inconsequential - I think that my entire last run was a bit less than $10 for nutrients, which worked out to being less than a $1 per zip of finished bud. Pretty doable.

Thanks Rives. I may give it a try in my small room, but I just can't come to terms with laying out almost $500 for the big sack that I'd use up at a faster rate than the $80 tub of Maxibloom. On a small scale it's inconsequential, but going through 40ish gallons a day it adds up quite a bit.

I know some of the cost is paying for the research, time and effort that went into developing the formula, I understand that, but still, I think it's too much. The cost of the raw ingredients, especially in bulk, is far too low for the sticker price. I was expecting it to be about 2x the cost of Maxi, not 6x.

On the subject of calcium though, I am looking for a way to feed only calcium, without any nitrogen or magnesium. It would be nice to beef up the calcium a little more in both the jack's and the maxibloom, but most of all so I can keep feeding calcium after I cut out the nitrogen in late flower.

 

[TheBioMaster]

Shafto - Cutting Edge Solutions makes a calcium only additive...FYI

It is called "Plant Amp"

They also have a magnesium only additive called Mag Amp.......

Cutting Edge Solutions makes really good nutrients....IMHO.


It is fascinating to me how people compare V+B to products like Maxi bloom and the likes. Apples and Grapefruit but I guess that just does not matter to them as long as they get the answer that already matches what they currently think and know.

Lets think about this PLEASE.....your going to argue that a BLOOM ONLY FORMULA such a Maxi will be compared to and out perform a COMPLETE FORMULA like V+B??? You honestly have to see that these two products are not the same and should not even be compared.

Of COURSE Maxi would cost less....it is just PART of a complete formula that is needed. The BLOOM part!! It was formulated for that and not as a complete start to finish formula so of course it would not have all the components that V+B does, and of course it would not perform as well, and of course it would cost less.............nobody at GH planned for any "Lucas Formula" I assure you.....Lucas formula is known to be INCOMPLETE but because people are actually able to use it and produce a bud, they think this all BS......

The reason I support its use was mainly because it is so DIFFERENT than ANYTHING currently on the market. The way it works is unique, and I know of no other nutrient brand that works this way. Its components are UNIQUE as well and will not be found in other products. The ratios and amounts of mineral used is UNIQUE from any other nutrient brand.......

Ammonia free nutrients will change the future drastically in hydroponics......the information is slowly making its way up into the open.....how many brands currently offer a ammonia free nutrient???

When more hydroponic growers start to learn and see results in ammonia free nutrients, the game will change drastically......V+B is years ahead of any other company and again I know of no other nutrient company that is even doing this research......

The service is unique as well as I know of no other nutrient company that will take a sample of your source water and analysis and then ADJUST the nutrient formula to YOUR water conditions....

But alas...people just keep comparing V+B to Maxi and other products.....makes ZERO sense. Not only are the products very different and work in different ways and contain different ingredients, ratio's, ect, but even the company that makes V+B is very different and not the same as other nutrient companies......

Bottom line is the choice is yours and it matters not to me......but what REALLY does matter to me is that you make the choice based on ACCURATE FACTS and testing done accurately and properly. So far the negative things mentioned that I am reading here does NOT do this... Maxi and V+B could not be more different........

Maxi drops your ph to like -5 if in RO water........LOL

V+B has ph buffering components to stabilize PH

Maxi's purpose or intention for use was for a bloom booster.

V+B is a one part COMPLETE nutrient package.

Maxi does contain any growth stimulates, fulvics, or even enough magnesium and calcium to reach PROPER levels, for healthy plant growth. Maxi does not carry phosphate species that prevent salt build up and keep lines free of clogs. Maxi does not carry ANY root inoculates of any kind.

V+B has all those things PLUS a lot more!!

Maxi does not contain time release components......

V+B does.......

I could seriously go on and on and on and on about how really night and day different these two products are in comparison of each other........

Please find a product that at LEAST comes close to V+B in content and performance and ease of use. Working with Maxi powder is NOT easy.....you have to deal with ULTRA low ph values for starters and getting it to dissolve takes extra work and is hard to do....

V+B is run through grinders to make the powder super easy to mix and use......this makes what is suppose to dissolve, do so instantly and easily......

 

[YosemiteSam]

the derived from says calcium nitrate...what cano3 is ammonia free?

the derived from says mkp...point out the one that carries phosphate species that prevent salt build up please.

The label offers no indication that any of this stuff exists

edit...you have people saying it burns tip above 1.2, you have people saying it is a pain in the ass to mix...are they lying?

edit dos...so it was pointed out to me there is a cano3 with no ammonia...however the v+b label list NH4. Plus what buffer would you put in a mix that does not require some NH4 to balance the pH in the root zone? Do tell what would be so special about ammonia free growing...and be specific, equations would be nice.

edit tres...plus it is just fucking bullshit that it somehow works differently. It is salts that drive the formula just like all bottled nutes. My experience is that the other stuff may make a hairs difference (maybe more in soil)...but the salts and ratios are what matter. And if you want to argue that is fine...but show scientific citations, not just some marketing drivel.

 

[Avenger]

now you know TheBM doesn't have to prove any of the bullshit he spews.

thats the great thing about composting toilets.

 

[TribalSeeds]

Shafto - Cutting Edge Solutions makes a calcium only additive...FYI

It is called "Plant Amp"

They also have a magnesium only additive called Mag Amp.......

Cutting Edge Solutions makes really good nutrients....IMHO.


It is fascinating to me how people compare V+B to products like Maxi bloom and the likes. Apples and Grapefruit but I guess that just does not matter to them as long as they get the answer that already matches what they currently think and know.

Lets think about this PLEASE.....your going to argue that a BLOOM ONLY FORMULA such a Maxi will be compared to and out perform a COMPLETE FORMULA like V+B??? You honestly have to see that these two products are not the same and should not even be compared.

Of COURSE Maxi would cost less....it is just PART of a complete formula that is needed. The BLOOM part!! It was formulated for that and not as a complete start to finish formula so of course it would not have all the components that V+B does, and of course it would not perform as well, and of course it would cost less.............nobody at GH planned for any "Lucas Formula" I assure you.....Lucas formula is known to be INCOMPLETE but because people are actually able to use it and produce a bud, they think this all BS......

The reason I support its use was mainly because it is so DIFFERENT than ANYTHING currently on the market. The way it works is unique, and I know of no other nutrient brand that works this way. Its components are UNIQUE as well and will not be found in other products. The ratios and amounts of mineral used is UNIQUE from any other nutrient brand.......

Ammonia free nutrients will change the future drastically in hydroponics......the information is slowly making its way up into the open.....how many brands currently offer a ammonia free nutrient???

When more hydroponic growers start to learn and see results in ammonia free nutrients, the game will change drastically......V+B is years ahead of any other company and again I know of no other nutrient company that is even doing this research......

The service is unique as well as I know of no other nutrient company that will take a sample of your source water and analysis and then ADJUST the nutrient formula to YOUR water conditions....

But alas...people just keep comparing V+B to Maxi and other products.....makes ZERO sense. Not only are the products very different and work in different ways and contain different ingredients, ratio's, ect, but even the company that makes V+B is very different and not the same as other nutrient companies......

Bottom line is the choice is yours and it matters not to me......but what REALLY does matter to me is that you make the choice based on ACCURATE FACTS and testing done accurately and properly. So far the negative things mentioned that I am reading here does NOT do this... Maxi and V+B could not be more different........

Maxi drops your ph to like -5 if in RO water........LOL

V+B has ph buffering components to stabilize PH

Maxi's purpose or intention for use was for a bloom booster.

V+B is a one part COMPLETE nutrient package.

Maxi does contain any growth stimulates, fulvics, or even enough magnesium and calcium to reach PROPER levels, for healthy plant growth. Maxi does not carry phosphate species that prevent salt build up and keep lines free of clogs. Maxi does not carry ANY root inoculates of any kind.

V+B has all those things PLUS a lot more!!

Maxi does not contain time release components......

V+B does.......

I could seriously go on and on and on and on about how really night and day different these two products are in comparison of each other........

Please find a product that at LEAST comes close to V+B in content and performance and ease of use. Working with Maxi powder is NOT easy.....you have to deal with ULTRA low ph values for starters and getting it to dissolve takes extra work and is hard to do....

V+B is run through grinders to make the powder super easy to mix and use......this makes what is suppose to dissolve, do so instantly and easily......

Time release components? LOL! Not buying it... It just doesnt disolve properly. Besides, even if it were time release, thats not a bright idea in a grow that cost more per day to run than someones rent. It needs to be broken down when I test it, not sometime later.

 

[Shafto]

Shafto - Cutting Edge Solutions makes a calcium only additive...FYI

It is called "Plant Amp"

They also have a magnesium only additive called Mag Amp.......

Cutting Edge Solutions makes really good nutrients....IMHO.


It is fascinating to me how people compare V+B to products like Maxi bloom and the likes. Apples and Grapefruit but I guess that just does not matter to them as long as they get the answer that already matches what they currently think and know.

Lets think about this PLEASE.....your going to argue that a BLOOM ONLY FORMULA such a Maxi will be compared to and out perform a COMPLETE FORMULA like V+B??? You honestly have to see that these two products are not the same and should not even be compared.

Of COURSE Maxi would cost less....it is just PART of a complete formula that is needed. The BLOOM part!! It was formulated for that and not as a complete start to finish formula so of course it would not have all the components that V+B does, and of course it would not perform as well, and of course it would cost less.............nobody at GH planned for any "Lucas Formula" I assure you.....Lucas formula is known to be INCOMPLETE but because people are actually able to use it and produce a bud, they think this all BS......

The reason I support its use was mainly because it is so DIFFERENT than ANYTHING currently on the market. The way it works is unique, and I know of no other nutrient brand that works this way. Its components are UNIQUE as well and will not be found in other products. The ratios and amounts of mineral used is UNIQUE from any other nutrient brand.......

Ammonia free nutrients will change the future drastically in hydroponics......the information is slowly making its way up into the open.....how many brands currently offer a ammonia free nutrient???

When more hydroponic growers start to learn and see results in ammonia free nutrients, the game will change drastically......V+B is years ahead of any other company and again I know of no other nutrient company that is even doing this research......

The service is unique as well as I know of no other nutrient company that will take a sample of your source water and analysis and then ADJUST the nutrient formula to YOUR water conditions....

But alas...people just keep comparing V+B to Maxi and other products.....makes ZERO sense. Not only are the products very different and work in different ways and contain different ingredients, ratio's, ect, but even the company that makes V+B is very different and not the same as other nutrient companies......

Bottom line is the choice is yours and it matters not to me......but what REALLY does matter to me is that you make the choice based on ACCURATE FACTS and testing done accurately and properly. So far the negative things mentioned that I am reading here does NOT do this... Maxi and V+B could not be more different........

Maxi drops your ph to like -5 if in RO water........LOL

V+B has ph buffering components to stabilize PH

Maxi's purpose or intention for use was for a bloom booster.

V+B is a one part COMPLETE nutrient package.

Maxi does contain any growth stimulates, fulvics, or even enough magnesium and calcium to reach PROPER levels, for healthy plant growth. Maxi does not carry phosphate species that prevent salt build up and keep lines free of clogs. Maxi does not carry ANY root inoculates of any kind.

V+B has all those things PLUS a lot more!!

Maxi does not contain time release components......

V+B does.......

I could seriously go on and on and on and on about how really night and day different these two products are in comparison of each other........

Please find a product that at LEAST comes close to V+B in content and performance and ease of use. Working with Maxi powder is NOT easy.....you have to deal with ULTRA low ph values for starters and getting it to dissolve takes extra work and is hard to do....

V+B is run through grinders to make the powder super easy to mix and use......this makes what is suppose to dissolve, do so instantly and easily......

Thanks for the suggestion on plant amp BM, I'll check it out.

I do find the rest of your post to be a little long winded and misleading though. Working with Maxibloom powder is far from hard. I don't see the ultra low PH you speak of, and the Maxibloom dissolves very easily, more easily than Jack's.

Night and day difference? Hardly... Maxibloom has everything you need for a lot of strains, and need a little more Ca with some. V+B apparently has all the little additives that are not essential to a plant's growth, and may help in certain situations, but honestly, like I mentioned, I've tried fulvics and aminos and carbs, and I can't say I've really seen any results from any of those things. Maybe they did something so minute I could not notice, in which case, it's still useless to me.

I have yet to see some impressive hulked out buds grown with V+B while I've seen plenty with MB... Not to say that you couldn't with V+B, but I haven't seen it yet.

I don't give a flying shit about all the stuff that's apparently in V+B, I care about results, and MB provides results. Who knows what's really in there and what isn't? You can't trust anybody in the cannabis nute business.

P.S. It's always been my belief that a small amount of ammonia in hydro is beneficial.

 

[Tyga]

Currently feeding these girls @ 325PPM,PH-5.8, Medium- Roots Organic Coco... Leaves getting a little funky.... Deficiency or burn? \

 

[ICbuds]

Veg+Bloom works and is easy. Saying it doesn't dissolve cleanly is bad information. I've tried Jacks and Maxi and didn't get the same results. I don't care what is in it, I just know its cheap, clean and simplifies my routine.

 

[ICbuds]

Currently feeding these girls @ 325PPM,PH-5.8, Medium- Roots Organic Coco... Leaves getting a little funky.... Deficiency or burn? \

I would run 600ppm through those until 20% run off, give em' 4-6 days and they will probably blow up. Could also be over watered.

 

[Tyga]

I would run 600ppm through those until 20% run off, give em' 4-6 days and they will probably blow up. Could also be over watered.

Thanks man.... They are in coco under t5's... Hand watered every 3rd day so I don't think it's over watering. You don't think 600PPM feed would be to high?

 

[ICbuds]

Thanks man.... They are in coco under t5's... Hand watered every 3rd day so I don't think it's over watering. You don't think 600PPM feed would be to high?

No. I have friends who are using Veg+Bloom in coco at 1.4-1.8 EC and aren't having any issues. I have been watching netprophets grow and he is bouncing around 1.2-2.0 in rockwool so genetics definitely influence feed strength. I would start at 1.1 and work your way up to 1.6 making sure you flush every now and then!

 

[Tyga]

No. I have friends who are using Veg+Bloom in coco at 1.4-1.8 EC and aren't having any issues. I have been watching netprophets grow and he is bouncing around 1.2-2.0 in rockwool so genetics definitely influence feed strength. I would start at 1.1 and work your way up to 1.6 making sure you flush every now and then!

Thanks man will do.

 

[rives]

No. I have friends who are using Veg+Bloom in coco at 1.4-1.8 EC and aren't having any issues. I have been watching netprophets grow and he is bouncing around 1.2-2.0 in rockwool so genetics definitely influence feed strength. I would start at 1.1 and work your way up to 1.6 making sure you flush every now and then!

ICbuds hit it here - I've found that an EC of .8 up is needed, even when they are very small. I'm currently vegging at 1.2 with blumats, so they are getting a constant feed.