Another school shooting

[moose eater]

My biggest opposition to the death penalty is that (as was posted by someone), it's not nearly as uncommon as many would want to believe, for innocent folks to get convicted. The inverse of that is true as well; the frequency with which the guilty are acquitted.

I proposed years ago, during a legislative teleconference during one of the moments when Alaska was re-thinking its not having a death penalty, that if every juror, prosecutor, judge and prosecutor's witness were to preemptively sign a waiver, stating that if it was later found they had convicted and/or executed an innocent person, that they agreed to voluntarily serve the maximum sentence for negligent homicide (as that's what I tend to regard wrong convictions involving a death penalty to be), then I might support it.

Guess how often folks are comfortable with that scenario. Even if they're believers in the System. Says a lot, I think.

Yet I suspect with such a law and method in place, there'd be a whole lot less consideration of tripe in jury deliberations, and a lot less loose speculation.

Right now, in pro-death penalty states/countries, those players listed above have a substantially reduced stake in the game.

 

[Gry]

The post describing the deaths of animals by other animals was most interesting. As a vegan with cats who love salad (as long as it is cannabis or catnip), I have often thought the point of most of their 'play', was to enhance their hunting abilities.
I can not help but wonder to what extent that might be the case for some of the actions described with other species.

 

[Zeez]

To kill is a VERY animal impulse that most all of us posses and many use that impulse for the right or wrong reasons.....

I don't agree at all. Maybe it's the terminology. Possibly some people could be in situations where they have some notion of this but absolutely never consider acting on it because their sense of right and wrong would dismiss it immediately. This is likely very situation dependent. A defensive situation where my home alarm went off in the middle of the night and someone was trying to breakdown the locked bedroom door would certainly guarantee two of my seven 45 rounds going right through the bedroom door. (trying not to hit the espresso machine)

I don't see any ties between school shootings / mass murderers and the animal world. To say that psychopathic behavior and/or mental illness is some how a primal instinct or a buried human trait and therefore connected to animal behavior is a stretch.

 

[moose eater]

You can encounter rogue animals as much as you can encounter rogue persons. In either case, behaviors that are not typical of the greater population.

Automatically defining either as madness is a value judgment that cancels out other factors before proper assessment.

And conditioning can play a role in both cases, whether negative conditioning, or positive.

 

[Gypsy Nirvana]

Killing can be used in a reasonable and understandable way if it is done for sustenance or defense of yourself and/or others. You can also kill yourself and kill others thru assisted suicides, and that's deemed as ok in some countries...

Most every woman or man would kill to protect their child....if they had a chance to stop the assailant, and killing was the only way out.....and that would be seen as being extreme but reasonable behavior, because we all feel that way.....or should.

But killing just for sport, or because you were rejected and had some grudge against the person who spurned your advances is not reasonable and understandable behavior at all....It shows a lack of reasonable mental capabilities to go arm yourself and then go shoot up the school, or even to go hunting and shooting animals/birds/fish that you don't need for food. Its unnecessary and unreasonable killing whether its a human or bird/animal/fish.(or whatever)

 

[Zeez]

Analytical assessment of rogue behavior in animals is impossible unless you're talking about something like Tilikum the orca where it was obviously an environmentally induced reaction from abusive training techniques .

With people, imperfection is normal with a bell curve of acceptable behavior limited by mores, folkways and law. Madness is a laymen's term for many types mental illness that would be diagnosed by a professional and could be caused by environmental or chemical imbalances.

I still don't see your point.

 

[Oliver Pantsoff]

The last guy that killed 10 people in TX is 17 years old!!! Off with his fucking head!! We need to make examples out of these mass murderers.

OP

 

[Zeez]

But killing just for sport, or because you were rejected and had some grudge against the person who spurned your advances is not reasonable and understandable behavior at all....It shows a lack of reasonable mental capabilities to go arm yourself and then go shoot up the school, or even to go hunting and shooting animals/birds/fish that you don't need for food. Its unnecessary and unreasonable killing whether its a human or bird/animal/fish.(or whatever)

Psychopathic behavior in humans having similarity to animal behavior. Sorry guys, I don't see it. Oh well.

We definitely saw some major weirdness with Jim there. If I overheard someone making statements like that in public I would be concerned.

 

[Pinnate]

Killing can be used in a reasonable and understandable way if it is done for sustenance or defense of yourself and/or others. You can also kill yourself and kill others thru assisted suicides, and that's deemed as ok in some countries...

I don't think that one can be suicidal without suffering severe depression ─ and data have shown that the effects of the more potent psychedelics can cure depression.


But the euphoric effects of, say, well matured cerebral sativa are gentler and it can be indulged in more than every few weeks...


However, the periodic need for t-breaks...fuck it! Eet's a reel beech!


Switch to pure Indica for a few weeks, maybe...? lol


And I'm waaay, way fucking overdue, BTW!

 

[moose eater]

Aside from the reaction to his romantic advances being rejected, and looking specifically at long-term bullying issues, if I were tormented day in and day out, and saw no way out of the circumstance, having tried the approved avenues of addressing such issues, I could very well see myself at least contemplating 'more permanent cures' to the situation. It would not, however, be a carte' blanche approach involving by-standers.

We accept the battered spouse defense to some degree, specifically because of this phenomenon.

In re. to pre-meditation, versus violence to end an immediate act of aggression, years ago we had folks in our rural area who apparently had larger right feet than they had intellect or mutual respect. Some would drive way fast through a rural area, on gravel roads, sometimes with less control than they ought to have, including on blind curves and hills, such as those I live on..

My and others' kids played, walked dogs, and rode bikes in these areas.

I told the persons involved in a very public forum that I could not force them to drive responsibly, but should the day come that they endangered my children for their lack of willingness to grow up, let alone struck one, or killed them, "pronouncing the judge's name would never be their issue."

Clearly that stance went beyond -immediate- defense, and entered into a leveraged statement of pending reprisal or retribution if they continued and caused a situation... but I made the stakes known, and most of them, over time, decided such an outcome was probably not in anyone's interest.

Some persons are slower learners than others. I don't regret making those statements.

There's a huge difference in my mind, between empowering a System of largely disinterested parties, to judge and act on circumstances where paid dishonesty (lawyers), and subjective thought processes are the key balancing factors, versus person-on-the-scene experiences, and reactions to them.

If the jury, judge or prosecutor gets it wrong, they pay virtually nothing for their 'murder.' If I act without just cause, I'm likely going to pay for my transgressions for a long time.

We have a system that can kill with little thought or remorse, that's held to the lowest standard where consequences for unjust outcomes are concerned.. other than in those cases where a victim's family wins in court (providing the gov. permits them to seek resolution in court), but where individuals may be held to the highest standard, and by persons with the least investment to know what was real.

That's a faulty system.

 

[moose eater]

Suicide in an informed manner can be a very pragmatic approach to dealing with incurable suffering. It doesn't inherently involve depression.

In my view, Jack Kevorkian was a hero who paid for challenging implied religious mandates over our ability to decide our paths for ourselves.

And zero of my clients in mental health completed suicide; not for lack of threatening, trying, contemplating, etc.

 

[Ringodoggie]

OK, picture this.....9 days ago you were 18 years old. Less than a year later, you are standing in a jungle and people you never met and don't have anything against.... are shooting at you. I mean real bullets from real guns. And, they are walking toward you as they are shooting and it is clear they intend to kill you.


Ya know what bud... you'll shoot. And, you'll kill. And, you won't even be mature enough to know anything about life or the world and.... you have already experienced killing someone.


Nothing to do with a kid or school shooting but someone a few pages back said there's NO excuse for killing another human. I didn't have an excuse or even a reason. I was simply told to do it...... or else.


Killing, like all things is relative. I have killed many many human beings. I think it's a little fucked up but I certainly have no remorse about doing my duty as a defender of American freedom and fighting for truth, justice and the American way. Great reason to kill, huh?


How about the Jews. Killed everything in their path for 50 years, LOL..... in the name of their god. People have been killing since Cain slayed Abel. It's what humans do. They kill each other for power. Or for money. Or for this or for no reason at all.


How about my Father who also killed many many human being in WWII. All for the American way of life. Our way. The best way for everyone. Or, you die. Like communism died. We just wouldn't stop until everyone is American. LOL


I'm not sure I understand why what this kid did it is any different than what my Father and I have done. And, millions more like us. The kid killed for what he believed. I killed for even less reason but on the same order. My Dad killed for what he believed. The Jews killed for what they believed.


I just don't understand what's so shocking about a human being killing a bunch more human beings.Like I said, been going on since Cain and Abel.


Not saying it's right. But it is definitely........ human.

 

[Spaventa]

Is that what exit wounds usually look like?

Im not suggesting this thing never happened, just saw it and thought thats small. thank god hes alright.

Also I was surprised to see from the footage of him being interviewed, no neck muscle damage, full range of motion and no brace. He wasn't even in shock. must be a miracle.

 

[Green Squall]

Is that what exit wounds usually look like?

Im not suggesting this thing never happened, just saw it and thought thats small. thank god hes alright.

Also I was surprised to see from the footage of him being interviewed, no neck muscle damage, full range of motion and no brace. He wasn't even in shock. must be a miracle.

View Image

Looks like the wound is from a piece of birdshot from the shotgun. Extremely lucky kid.

 

[Spaventa]

Looks like the wound is from a piece of birdshot from the shotgun. Extremely lucky kid.

No they said it was a bullet. he had a .38 caliber handgun as well as the shotgun.

 

[Bird of Hermes]

Too big to be from the birdshot but the right diameter for a .38. .38's don't have much ballistic energy so your not going to have a big hole like you would with a magnum or something. Plus exit wounds vary a lot based on a lot of factors like how hot the round was loaded, type of bullet, trajectory and a lot of other stuff so I see nothing suspicious about the pic. He got very lucky about the trajectory and the fact that it missed his brain stem.

Edit don't know what size of pellets he had so it is possible it was a stray pellet from the shotgun. The people reporting on it probably wouldn't be too concerned with the semantics. Either way the kids extremely lucky that it missed anything vital.

 

[Bird of Hermes]

And the state may soon decide that the shooter's family should be added to that list of mourning families ─ I can only ask why ─ what possible benefit will anyone derive from such a thing?

Look man I feel you and I'm not one to cheer for anybodys death just laying out the facts of this situation basically. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind is your basic argument and I don't disagree with that. But unfortunately that principle would only truly exist in a perfect world and if we lived in that world this whole situation would have never happened.

I won't be serving on this guys jury so what I think fundamentally has no impact I'm just saying most of my grief if not all goes torwards the victims and their families. I make no claims at all to be perfect or know all the right answers I'm just a human and that's how I feel.

 

[Spaventa]

Too big to be from the birdshot but the right diameter for a .38. .38's don't have much ballistic energy so your not going to have a big hole like you would with a magnum or something. Plus exit wounds vary a lot based on a lot of factors so I see nothing suspicious about the pic. He got very lucky about the trajectory and the fact that it missed his brain stem.

"Bullets which pass through the body with loss of velocity on account of the greater distance fired, or from the resistance of penetrated tissues, or because they were fired from poor guns, usually produce wounds of exit which are much larger than the wounds of entrance."

https://academic.oup.com/ajcp/article-pdf/4/1/66/5010939/ajcpath4-0066.pdf

 

[Bird of Hermes]

OK, picture this.....9 days ago you were 18 years old. Less than a year later, you are standing in a jungle and people you never met and don't have anything against.... are shooting at you. I mean real bullets from real guns. And, they are walking toward you as they are shooting and it is clear they intend to kill you.


Ya know what bud... you'll shoot. And, you'll kill. And, you won't even be mature enough to know anything about life or the world and.... you have already experienced killing someone.


Nothing to do with a kid or school shooting but someone a few pages back said there's NO excuse for killing another human. I didn't have an excuse or even a reason. I was simply told to do it...... or else.


Killing, like all things is relative. I have killed many many human beings. I think it's a little fucked up but I certainly have no remorse about doing my duty as a defender of American freedom and fighting for truth, justice and the American way. Great reason to kill, huh?


How about the Jews. Killed everything in their path for 50 years, LOL..... in the name of their god. People have been killing since Cain slayed Abel. It's what humans do. They kill each other for power. Or for money. Or for this or for no reason at all.


How about my Father who also killed many many human being in WWII. All for the American way of life. Our way. The best way for everyone. Or, you die. Like communism died. We just wouldn't stop until everyone is American. LOL


I'm not sure I understand why what this kid did it is any different than what my Father and I have done. And, millions more like us. The kid killed for what he believed. I killed for even less reason but on the same order. My Dad killed for what he believed. The Jews killed for what they believed.


I just don't understand what's so shocking about a human being killing a bunch more human beings.Like I said, been going on since Cain and Abel.


Not saying it's right. But it is definitely........ human.

The difference is that you were killing because you were ordered to and to protect your life and the lives of those around you. We can debate the legality of wars and whether they are justified but when somebody commits mass murder they have much different motivations then a soldier.

That said I'm glad you made it back and are here today sir.

 

[Bird of Hermes]

"Bullets which pass through the body with loss of velocity on account of the greater distance fired, or from the resistance of penetrated tissues, or because they were fired from poor guns, usually produce wounds of exit which are much larger than the wounds of entrance."

https://academic.oup.com/ajcp/article-pdf/4/1/66/5010939/ajcpath4-0066.pdf

And that's why I said it could've been a pellet from the shotgun in my edit. There are varying sizes of pellets used it shotguns. Just like there are a wide variety of loads for the .38 special. Dude there are a lot of factors that go into what the wounds look like. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. If you think this a false flag operation or something just say it