Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[Dab Strudel]

Its funny, (sorry to throw off the thread) every time I read it I kept imagining BYF (I dont know the man, nor have seen him) wagging his finger at me with that '...then you have the pot growers that need to be told exactly what to do...'

Next item on the docket Mr MJ: '.... So the rescue for stretching is additional stim at 2 qts per acre foliar and 3 qts drench. I chuck in the Co at 1/2 pint per acre. You can safely double shield. I went 1/2 pint on crp...stuff scares me. Root cause of stretching will be lack of k or b both of which affect sugar transport or photosynthesis not working properly.'

What exactly is 'crp'?... Im sure I have more, including the PM, Those are more geared twords me and my situation though.
Thank you kindly.
DS

edit- I now think the answer is seacrop...

 

[milkyjoe]

Could be, who knows.

Unnatural stretch is caused by nutrient deficiencies. But what causes the nute def? In an organic system one answer is often auxin dominance over cytokinins. The hormone that causes shoot growth becomes dominant over the one that causes root growth. And remember hormones can be effective in parts per billion...birth control pills work at 0.5 ppb.

So what happens is you end up with a root system that can no longer supply all of the minerals the shoots need...think of it in energy terms, the roots can no longer supply all of the energy the shoots need. So the shoots start to hoard energy for themselves by stopping sending liquid carbon to the roots. So now there is less microbe food which leads to less nutrients being made available to the plant...which leads to more auxin dominance and the cycle goes on until you don't have energy to really fill the buds out.

So stretch is one of those times when the plant really needs extra energy...it is what Mr Kempf calls a critical point of influence. His choice is to provide more energy or nutrients (including hormone support as well as) through foliar sprays.

The Coot method says spend your money building very expensive soil using plenty of kelp meal (meal, not the soluble stuff found in hydro stores). It also then provides additional support in the form of foliar KSil, aloe, coconut and ssts (corn seed ones are stupid high in cytokinins...one may also note a whole lot of K is being added).

As you might imagine the Coot method is not practical if you are doing 100s of acres.

Anyways, perhaps I have gone off on a tangent here. So back to what AEA is doing to support this situation. Sea Shield turns out to be a great source of energy to support new growth during this period and Sea Stim (a raw cold processed kelp vs the soluble stuff so all of the good stuff is still intact) provides the things that maintain cytokninin dominance. They are currently suggesting 4 gallons of sea stim and 2 gallons of sea shield at the beginning of flower (when you change the light schedule) per acre.

Or another tangent...if you are feeding soluble salts jack them up during this period for a couple of weeks. Not with some dumbass PK booster but with overall balanced nutrition


edit...ever notice how the really stretchy shit tends to have stems that turn purple easily...makes a guy wonder


edit dos...damn it, now you are making me re read my post for errors and I end up thinking about more things. imo, during stretch you should also support your microbe community...so sea shield, molasses (or better but more expensive Rejuvenate) and I also chuck in some spectrum at this point.

 

[Lightweight]

Hey milkyjoe, I've been reading through this thread and earlier you said you had a 1/2" of basalt (top-dressed I assume). Now that it's had some time to break down would you say that was a good amendment and a good amount to amend with?

I've read about farmers top-dressing or tilling in 5 - 20 tons per acre and having good results with plant growth and with re-mineralizing their fields. With such a wide variation of application it seems like basalt is a fairly safe amendment, but I also didn't see any soil mineral test samples from any of these reports so who knows if those farmers over did it or not, but the reports for their fields and orchids sounded good.

 

[milkyjoe]

I used it as my drainage amendment... $35 a yard. 4 grows later you cannot find a trace of it. So whatever was in it was made available by microbes

I feel no need to relace the drainage aspect

 

[Dab Strudel]

I read that the Kempf audio/video was taken down. Any chance someone archived it?
Is there any way to over do cytokinin? say if I used sea stim and corn SSTs? Not that I would now that ive read about K levels over and over again these last weeks. Either Cep or 2C did an exp with stupid low levels of K, anyone have any idea how that turned out? Joe did one too i believe, not as low, but the data would be key seeing as your PPM seemed to be a closer fit to our genes than cep/2c.
Speaking of NPK, How does Build-A-Soils cover crop fare on our high quality soil mixed with AEA/Tainio/Albion/Ferti? Should one take the time to crawl thru that rabbit hole and make ones own mix or does it punch the ticket proper? How much N does it provide for the plants? I assume the levels are steady thru its life, no fluctuation spikes to worry about. Also, does it only provide NO3? I am trying to keep my NH4:NO3 levels in check.
Did you mean relace or replace lol just busting on you man. Thank you for all your dedication to the Mag and dropped knowledge past, present, and future.

 

[orechron]

The low K experiment worked well in my climate. My fall/winters are stupid wet and if it isn't raining the rh is still over 90% so I was taking heavy loses to botrytis until I started adjusting cation saturations. What I found was that 3% K worked well, but deficiency showed up mid way through bloom. 5-6% soils seem to yield better, but if I get K that high I also try to have Ca a little higher, say 72%. Keep in mind that this was native topsoil. Any lighter, compost or peat based media will show cation deficiencies quicker.

 

[milkyjoe]

Has anyone ever weighed a cup of oyster shell, a cup of gypsum? I am curious what 27 cups of both weigh.

So I like to have one stupid experiment running every year. Normally it involves how long I can take a sativa. But this year I decided to run a light weight mix. So I had a plan...all I had to do was run by Build A Soil and pick up 2 cf of worm power. Well they don't have worm power anymore....so I got to talking with Jeremy. That is where things went sideways for me.

He showed me a Logan test for 1/3 peat, oly mountain fish and pumice. So I ended up driving away with 9 cf of oly mountain and pumice instead of 2 cf of ewc.

Anyways, I cannot share the Logan numbers cause it isn't my work. But I plan to amend quite a bit different than what most people use. Instead of 27 cups of oyster shell and gypsum I plan to use 4.2 lbs of Vansil W10. And instead of kelp, neem and crab meal I plan to use 1/2 lb of Ammonium Sulfate. I also plan to adjust the micros individually instead of all that basalt. ( turns out we use the same basalt from the same supplier anyways)

So a bunch different, but in a couple of weeks I will get a Logan Labs on my new stuff and we will see how it compares to most of the Coot style mixes...I got a Lonestar's Killer Queen to stick in there and I am running it in my normal top soil mix that I run.

We will see what we see.

 

[MrBungle]

ahh very cool I've been using Ammonium Sulfate in my solution for veg for a long time at .1 grams per gal.. I've experimented with it in flower using it through stretch.. I found out it would drop out the pH if i went that far into flower...so I use it for the first 1 or 2 feedings in flower then cut it.. What made you decide on AS over MAP?

 

[milkyjoe]

17 ppm on the Logan Test of S on that mix vs the P2O5 reading. Gotta get some sulfer in there now...and then fix it for more permanent this winter with a cover crop and amendment.


If you do use AP make damn sure to chelate it with fulvic acid before putting it in the soil and then use Tainio microbes to keep that P available. Raw MAP is gonna be a bummer to your fungal population

 

[orechron]

Milky, a stupid question for your stupid experiment: If there is no carbonate ion coming off the VanSil, does it still alter the pH of the soil?

 

[MrBungle]

17 ppm on the Logan Test of S on that mix vs the P2O5 reading. Gotta get some sulfer in there now...and then fix it for more permanent this winter with a cover crop and amendment.


If you do use AP make damn sure to chelate it with fulvic acid before putting it in the soil and then use Tainio microbes to keep that P available. Raw MAP is gonna be a bummer to your fungal population

I knew the answer as soon as I asked it..lol I just had remembered an earlier post where you were talking MAP.... I thought about switching to MAP for veg, and the AS for early flower but that is just getting a bit overkill... I'm gonna stick with AS.. my veg has been a jungle since I added it separate to the solution.. I'm still running the Agsil with Pekacid as a down, and some fulvic in the solution, Now I'm wondering if that is chelating the P, and why I still see good life in my soil

 

[milkyjoe]

Milky, a stupid question for your stupid experiment: If there is no carbonate ion coming off the VanSil, does it still alter the pH of the soil?

We will find out. But I speculate yes. I think it is the cations not only in solution but those attached to the ce sites that do it...so filling the Ca sites should raise pH. As mixed the pH stands at 5.6 with a ton of H+ sites ready to be filled.


I am thinking I can fill those sites with Ca but without overdoing it and having K bumped off.


If you look at the BAS full oly soil the pH is like 7 and the tcec is 3 times what it is for the base mix. I assume that is filled cec sites plus free ions (mainly Ca) wandering around.


Not all of my experiments go as planned. But I will let you know

 

[Avenger]

Calcium silicate neutralizes active acidity by removing free hydrogen ions from the bulk solution, thereby increasing pH. As its silicate anion captures H+ ions (raising the pH), it forms monosilicic acid (H4SiO4), a neutral solute. Monosilicic acid remains in the bulk solution to aid in correcting the adverse effects of acidic conditions.

CaSiO3 + 2H+ + H2O → Ca2+ + H4SiO4 (monosilicic acid)

(Calcium silicate + Acidity + Water → Calcium + Monosilicic acid (neutral solute))

In the bulk solution, the silicate anion is very active in neutralizing H+ cations in the soil solution. Its CCE value is 90 – 100% and its relative neutralizing value is 98%.

see also:
Silicon Soil Amendments for Suppressing Powdery Mildew on Pumpkin
J. Lepolu Torlon, Joseph R. Heckman *, James E. Simon and Christian A. Wyenandt
Department of Plant Biology, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08901, USA

 

[orechron]

Nice ^^^ thanks avenger

 

[milkyjoe]

So gysum weighs 9 oz per cup and oyster shell is 8. Jeremy uses 1 cup of each per cf. I used 4.2 lbs vansil w10 per yard. One of us has left the rails...hope it is Jeremy.

I also used 1 lb ammonium sulfate, 8 grams boric acid, 3 grams cu sulfate, 91 grams mn sulfate and 1/2 lb iron sulfate.

That was my entire amend. Plant goes in it tomorrow

 

[milkyjoe]

So just to check...short 1142 lbs per acre/807 yards per acre = 1.42 lbs per yard / 0.34 % Ca in Vansil = 4.2 lbs Vansil. Somebody tell me I am not off the rails.

It should be noted tcec is only 9.09. If I do this right tcec should not go up, if I get free Ca then tcec will go

If you look BAS oly mountain living soil has a tcec of around 30. Something is going on here. The free Ca that drives up the tcec also means it calls for more, or under reports Ca on the real tcec.

I am telling you...unless your pH is over 6.5 do not even consider gypsum

 

[Dab Strudel]

So gysum weighs 9 oz per cup and oyster shell is 8. Jeremy uses 1 cup of each per cf. I used 4.2 lbs vansil w10 per yard. One of us has left the rails...hope it is Jeremy.

I also used 1 lb ammonium sulfate, 8 grams boric acid, 3 grams cu sulfate, 91 grams mn sulfate and 1/2 lb iron sulfate.

That was my entire amend. Plant goes in it tomorrow

Ok here is a perfect example of something I am really caught up on. All of your amendments are sulfates, does that create any sort of either deficiency OR make the plant work harder? Moreso, does the plant require different forms of each/any amendment in order to gain full(ish?) genetic potential? More directly, other than the abundance of sulfer, is their any reason not to use only sulfates when looking to gain full(ish) genetic potential?
Also, when using a cover crop does anyone know what additional it requires to keep it growing? What nutrients need a little more than if growing with out a cover crop?

P.S AEA has a couple videos on utube. related videos has Kempf talks. I almost walked away after hearing about infared bugs but the rest has my attention. I think in that dept hes gone a little nutty. I just think the bugs are soly attracted to the conditions that we've concluded and are just not interested in healthy plants because its in proper defense mode. No reason to think they cant see the plant, I just think its like when we see a skunk. We see that mofo but we know what happens when we try to pet that kitty.

 

[Dab Strudel]

Man, Looking into nitrogen fixing has me wondering... IF no matter what K + Ca + Mg + Na / N + P + S + Cl + Si = Constant as far as CEC is concerned and we take out a lot of the N when we use a cover crop, wont the P, S, Cl, and Si levels rise too high? This is a wicked matrix that I am far from being enlightened to so IDK what 'too much' for P,S,Cl,and Si, but I have a feeling Id have to play with the TCEC if I wanted to not include N to its full need as well as not bring up the levels of the rest to an extreme level. OR does the fixed N hit the CEC sites when its 'ready to be used' or whatever. whoever wants/is willing to talk, my inbox works as well.

 

[MrBungle]

My math gave me 4.16 lbs rounded up 4.2 should be just fine

 

[milkyjoe]

I went ammonium sulfate because S was 17 ppm and I do not want to add elemental sulfer until after the growing season...I do not want to kill microbes right now.

You need to study cation exchange some...all of those cations do not = a constant. You are leaving out H+, it makes a huge difference.

You need a balance of anions just like you need a balance of cations. So sulfate needs to be in balance with phosphate, nitrate, silicate, molybdate, B, Cl and other anions.

Even Monsanto understands the infrared dinner sign. Every element has a different mass, mass = energy, every element has an energy that gives off a specific infrared signal...the right ones combined puts off a specific signal that draws insects. The work was done at Florida U or State...Tom Dykstra.

Cover crops should live off the exact same elements your plant does. If you do not have enough minerals to support an additional crop you have cut it to close and need more dirt or to fill that cec better.

A decent cover crop is going to fix somewhere around 100 lbs of N per yr. If you go to your local university extension they can be more specific.

Your biggest problem will be keeping the cover crop alive when your plant shades it out.