Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[MountZionCollec]

Thanks milky!!

Im pretty positive the chicken manure is Sup R green from the murphys mix, but Im curious to check next time Im over there.

you think if I got the soil #1 into the germinating pots early and watered them for 2 weeks it would be cooled off enough for seed starter ?

I fully agree with you on the dolo lime. Do you agree with Logan labs as far as their "desired" category? Just curious because they recommended to add 119# of Ca (68%) and 61# Mg (12%), almost exact same ratio as Dolomite Lime!

If their are 807 yards in an acre, and I am having them mix 100 yards of soil then 807/100=~8.
119/8=14.875 # of Ca needed
61/8=7.625 # of Mg needed

Would you go higher then this or does this look right?

P: Sounds lovely, in the process of getting the compost tea brewer from Microbeman set up for this year.

I didnt put Micropak in this past order but will def. be in the next one.
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Toms mix

I did use supr green!

I like the idea of using sul-po-mag

I sent off the results to Astera yesterday so I should be getting his recommendations on amending the Tom mix.
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How did you feel about the CEC of the two mixes? What are you shooting for? seems lower than what it should be with the inputs.

 

[milkyjoe]

That right there is a million dollar question. I do not have enough data to give you a for sure answer.

I would love for an actual AEA rep to come on here and give an opinion. That would not only be most awesome it might build some loyalty.

Anyways here is my confusion.

If you are calculating based on Albrecht theory...cec stuff, then weight matters. So a furrow acre slice is assumed to weigh 2,000,000 lbs...a yard of that is gonna weight 2400 +. A yard of our dirt is going to weigh approximately 800 lbs. So if cec is all you are considering you would basically use 1/3 of what Logan is recommending for lbs/acre.

And that would not get you in trouble at all. At worst you still come up a little short on Ca and Mg and your pH does not move to 6.4 or a little higher.

But...Albrecht was not dealing with soils with 40% organic matter. That organic matter will also hold cations and anions. I got no clue how to measure that affect.

My opinion, we are OK going with the full (well 1/807 when we are talking yards) Logan numbers. But again...I absolutely do not have enough data to guarantee that.

 

[milkyjoe]

I fully agree with you on the dolo lime. Do you agree with Logan labs as far as their "desired" category? Just curious because they recommended to add 119# of Ca (68%) and 61# Mg (12%), almost exact same ratio as Dolomite Lime!

quote]

Plus...just to make sure here...unless you paid extra for Bill MkKebean to give you a recommend Logan Labs is just telling you how much more Ca and Mg you need to get up to 68% base cation saturation and 12% respectively.

Check this cause I am not sure about it but dolomite is gonna be somewhere around 20% Ca and 10% Mg. So if you need to add 119 lbs of Ca per acre...that is 0.15 per yard or 15 per 100 yards...that is Ca though, not dolomite. So 15/0.20 is 75 lbs of dolomite for 100 yards of soil

That also gives you 75 x 0.10 = 7.5 lbs of Mg.

Not saying you did not know that...just trying to be crystal clear.

edit...every cec I see on Logan tests worries me. If peat has a cec of 100 or so...and you hear that...and you go 50% peat, how can the cec of the mix be less than 50? That bothers the shit out of me. I don't understand it at all and I hate having loose ends like that.

Maybe ask Michael about that. Also...Michael tends to recommend P = K in ppm. So he is going to say a lot higher P is OK. I base what I said on Nova Crop Controls work...so we are going to differ there for sure.

 

[BigBozat]

edit...every cec I see on Logan tests worries me. If peat has a cec of 100 or so...and you hear that...and you go 50% peat, how can the cec of the mix be less than 50? That bothers the shit out of me. I don't understand it at all and I hate having loose ends like that.

Maybe ask Michael about that. Also...Michael tends to recommend P = K in ppm. So he is going to say a lot higher P is OK. I base what I said on Nova Crop Controls work...so we are going to differ there for sure.

Total newb question from me maybe , but is CEC really supposed to work like that?.. i.e., a sort of pure averaging of the CECs of the constituent components?

Wouldn't it depend on, among other things, the chemical & elemental make-up of the constituent components, and how they interact?

Sorta like how the physical properties of soil (WHC, AFP) aren't necessarily straightforward averages of the WHC & AFP of the components (e.g., where particle size interaction effects may result in far greater loss of AFP than would be predicted by a straightforward average)?

If so, then I could get how adding a, say, 15 CEC something-or-other to a 100 CEC peat in a 1:1 ratio could still result in a CEC of less than 50 for the combined mix.


Just my underinformed thought experiment... would love to find out.

 

[Kygiacomo!!!]

i just ordered sea sheild yesterday on advice from milkyjoe. i think after harvest this year im gonna go with the entire lineup..they have some awesome products!

 

[Backyard Farmer]

sea stim,shield,crop , micropak, pht ca , p , hypercap , biocoat gold , rejuvenate....yep yep...!! on the way to 2015!!

 

[milkyjoe]

Total newb question from me maybe , but is CEC really supposed to work like that?.. i.e., a sort of pure averaging of the CECs of the constituent components?

Wouldn't it depend on, among other things, the chemical & elemental make-up of the constituent components, and how they interact?

Sorta like how the physical properties of soil (WHC, AFP) aren't necessarily straightforward averages of the WHC & AFP of the components (e.g., where particle size interaction effects may result in far greater loss of AFP than would be predicted by a straightforward average)?

If so, then I could get how adding a, say, 15 CEC something-or-other to a 100 CEC peat in a 1:1 ratio could still result in a CEC of less than 50 for the combined mix.


Just my underinformed thought experiment... would love to find out.

Excellent point. I bet you are right. Thank you and DOH

 

[milkyjoe]

sea stim,shield,crop , micropak, pht ca , p , hypercap , biocoat gold , rejuvenate....yep yep...!! on the way to 2015!!

Don't you wish that pumpkin grower said how he used hypercap? And how much of that, sea shield and photomag he used...chances are he did not stick to label recommendations

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Love photomag I'm going to crush the jugs I ordered

 

[BigBozat]

Excellent point. I bet you are right. Thank you and DOH

I dunno... now I am curious. Was pretty much a wild-assed guess, so I wouldn't go all Homer just yet. Your concerns may well yet be completely valid...

... was just speculating to try to set a frame of reference that'd get you thinking outside the box of linear 'average'. Seems to me there's way too many variables & properties involved, which suggests to me non-linear systems/results... oops, geek leaking out...

 

[MountZionCollec]

I had to weigh my oven dried soil for Mr. Astera. It came out to 732 grams per gallon, or 326# an acre (I believe).

732 grams*202 gallons in a cubic yard divided by 453.54 grams=326 pounds in one yard

I understand you on the Albrecht dealing with different soils....I may have to ask Mr. Astera.

On the dolomite calculations I actually hadnt applied it yet as you did and I'm still very much learning how to apply all of this so appreciate you noting it.

on page 81 of Asteras newer version book he says dolo lime is CA: 22, MG: 13.

On the CEC: If it is correct about the soil "interacting" to determine the CEC then my soil #1 test is useless because this soil has never even been wet. It was mixed at the factory, shipped to Murphys, I picked up a half gallon mason jar and sent it off to determine what else I wanted to add/remove from the current mix. But I dont know if that is the reason causing the low CEC in soil #1 because the Tom hill mix with roots at 47% OM is only 15. I have 6 other tests with Tom hill soils and (happyfrog, Peaceful valley bulk, few other roots) and the numbers are all fairly consistent.

 

[c-ray]

Just finished reading the thread and put in the order for a few of the AEA products, looking to replace my brix mix/cal 25 with one spray and to adjust for any detected deficiencies during the season.

I sent soil samples into logan labs and was curious of anyone's opinion, especially those that have used them, on the results.

Soil #1 is $110 a yard mix organized/sold in bulk through Murphys Hyrdoponics. It contains 20% humus, 20% pumice, 15% coco coir, 15% peat moss, 15% perlite, 10% worm castings, 5% chicken manure. Last 10%: Gypsum, Dolomite lime, calcium nitrate, kelp, blood meal, fish meal, greensand, cal rock phosphate

Soil 1 results
Total Exchange Capacity: 12.04
PH: 6.1
OM: 41.87%
Sulfur ppm: 165
Phosphorus mehlich III: 1078 lbs/acre
Calcium: 65.51%
Magnesium: 9.87%
Potassium: 4.61%
Sodium: 1.32%
Other bases: 5.2%
Exchangeable hydrogen: 13.5%
Boron: .81
Iron: 99
Manganese: 15
Copper: 1.77
Zinc: 7.07
Aluminum: 174

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I also had my Tom Hill amended pots from last year tested.

Tom Hill with Roots
Total Exchange Capacity: 15.36
PH: 6.7
OM: 47.85%
Sulfur: 16
Phosphorus: 2847 lbs/acre
Calcium: 79.45%
Magnesium: 9.55%
Potassium: 1.29%
Sodium: .51%
Other bases: 4.7%
Exchangeable Hydrogen: 4.5%
Boron: .54
Iron: 139
Manganese: 21
Copper: 2.9
Zinc: 18.68
Aluminum: 154

Any opinions much appreciated, but either way enjoyed the thread looking forward to trying their products!

what's the ppm on the Ca, K, Mg and Na?
reason I ask is graeme sait recommends P : K : Mg, he also recommends P:Zn 10:1 and Ca:B 1000:1 fwiw
if it were me I might bump up all the micros except Fe and add some more clay to the mix maybe 5-10% for increased TCEC

 

[milkyjoe]

Love photomag I'm going to crush the jugs I ordered

Are you going more than 1.5 ounces per gallon? That is where I have settled.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Nope. I do 1 oz per gal on p mag , I'll try driving them harder. Do you give them extra Seacrop now too to give them 45ml photomag

Going to try Aea cobalt sulfate instead of jh biotech cobalt , are u doing 1 pt per acre

 

[ghostmade]

Anybody work out the cost per gallon of the full line up?

 

[milkyjoe]

I only use sea crop in the soil at 1 pint per acre. It is not part of my foliar.

I am using both aea cobalt and Mo in addition to what it is Photomag. So far I do not exceed more than 4 ml per gallon. The stuff is far more concentrated in this form. I don't know that you really need it...then again I am on my 3rd grow with no N amended in the pots. No N from anything except Sea Shield and the microbes. I also spray a little aea Mn as I know my soil is short.

Plus I spray the Cobalt instead of fertigating. I figure let the roots exude it and feed the N fixers only right around the roots. My theory is that allows the roots to take up the metabolites before other bacteria screw around and oxidize it into nitrate. No clue if that is a fact...but it is what I imagine.

Have you run a compost test on your soil yet? I really want to figure out my C:N ratio and start moving it close to 10:1 Hugh Lovel style.

 

[milkyjoe]

Boron (Hot CaCl2) 1 -3 ppm
Iron (DTPA) 40-200 ppm
Manganese (DTPA) 30 -100 ppm
Copper (DTPA) 2 – 7 ppm
Zinc (DTPA) 5 -10 ppm
Molybdenum (Nitric Acid) 0.5 – 2 ppm
Cobalt (Nitric Acid) 2 – 40 ppm
Selenium (Nitric Acid) 0.6 – 2 ppm
Si 50 .

These are Graeme Sait's suggestions for micros along with the test he uses to extract them. While he does suggest a P:Zn ratio of 10:1 he does not suggest going above 10 ppm if your P is way up there like we tend to run.

 

[Backyard Farmer]

Does that mean you're not using any protein to amend your stuff and driving all your biology off what's in sea shieldand what's peovided by thenplant to soil? Are you on levels like that cherry grower of 40 gal per acre ? I add more every year and get more every year

 

[milkyjoe]

This is 4 yr old soil indoors. There was protein added in the past but not the last 3 grows. There is a chance I am still harvesting excess nitrate...but I kinda doubt it. I have used runoff.

I am at 2 ounces per yard of soil per week all fertigated of sea shield. Actually slightly more than the cherry guy.

Sea shield, aea kelp, sea crop and rejuvenate in the soil.

Photomag, albion micros and ferti organic kelp in the foliar...oh yea, aea cobalt, Mo, mn and sometimes Zn depending on what I see.

If I need more N outdoors...ferti nitro. I would rather foliar aminos and peptides than nitrate or even nh4.

Edit...and some tainio stuff. Dont wanna forget that. It is straight up amazing. If you said I could only use one thing...pepzyme for me please

 

[milkyjoe]

Btw...the reason I use albion micros instead of aea micros is cause the albion does not have B. That allows me to use more Photomag...which does have B.
I really like me some photomag