Advanced Foliar Techniques Explored

[Flasht2]

2 things I read:

1) If you bumped your ppms up then you over nuted.. so why then would you go and immediately start spraying them w/DM foliar sprays? They are designed to bring nutes in MUCH more efficiently than through the roots.. if you already overnuted why add MORE nutes in a manner that would add them the fastest?

*I'd just get as much ph balanced r/o water into the little ones and let them recover from that overdose

2) The DM nute schedule says very specifically to ALTERNATE days between folitech and maxfx applications, not mix them at all. They themselves think that more than that is too much.

I had started a thread about DM line of products some time ago but got no responses. Seems now it's a great time to start talking about them again. I have a great interest in this topic because I purchased every damn product they make I think other than buffer solution. I've been using them exclusively throughout my first grow and am now w/in 3 weeks of being finished I'm fairly sure. I personally had to back off the foliars a little. I added an extra day in there and the ladies responded better. I also just stopped using them because it states in DM product info to not spray them past week 4 and thats what I just finished w/today.

 

[Pod Racer]

Hello Flasht2 - a couple of very good questions. Here is my thinking on that.

The reason for the foliar feeding is that the 'burn' isn't actually an accumulation of elements within the plant's tissue, its a Nutrient Lock out. Thus a deficiency, and requires immediate attention. Bumping the nutes to over 1000 ppms basically locked out any absorption of N-P-K and is why, in my thinking they have gone pale yellow - lacking any P or N and the K is not so important at the moment beyond a need to keep the leaves from crisping or browning due to lack of Potassium.

So I use the DM Folitec and Penetrator to force the small...and remember its at 1/3 the strength, amount of nutrients back into the leaves as the root systems are not developed enough and/or maybe temporarily damaged to transport anything other than the now 148 ppm solution I have them in.

I forgot to mention that they are in an aerocloner now as well. Which accelerates the recovery I hope.

My desire is to get the Phosphorus back into the leaves themselves so they can manufacture the sugars and transport nutrients to needed areas of repair without requiring the root system.

This is my thinking anyhow and I'm surprised to announce it seems to have been very effective.

It has been 24 hours since I started my campaign to save them, which I honestly thought they would all be dead, but surprisingly I have salvaged about 80% or more. They appear to have extended their roots in response to the foliar feeding and have managed to repair a lot of the potential damage.

Here I will stop foliar feeding for a couple days to see if they recover completely and (believe this or not) I have moved them into soil where they can 'rest' and recoup under floros as I need moms anyhow.

The one Twig I had salvaged from my hacking on the flower table that was near death to begin with has really responded well as it has a very dense 'floweret' type growth of little green leaves just turning into a pom pom on the top of this twig.

I haven't mixed anything other than the Folitec and Penetrator at 1/3 strength and have only given them 3 feedings in about 16 hours. About every 4 just to see. I understand the 'rule' is every other day, but that is under normal conditions, like I said, I'm just experimenting to see if that is set in stone or for DM's case because of toxicity (as some of their elements are synthetic).

Like Botanicare, it is hard to over fertilize or burn plants with organic compounds they can easily absorb, but the Folitec I'm sure as well as Pen have synthetic in them.

I have also got Aspirin, in an attempt to boost their immunity as has been sighted earlier. These are all 'aids' to health and not so much 'fertilizers' as the idea isn't exclusive to 'feeding' as much as providing superior resources and hormones or organic compounds the plant might be able to use more readily.

Remember, Research has shown that foliar nutrients are more efficiently utilized than are soil-applied nutrients (about six times as efficiently). So they should be able to recover from the lock out six times faster than using just the root system, which on some of these clones are Nada. Half of these were cut about 5 days ago so they didn't even have root yet. The only way to attack the problem was through the leaves, or so it would seem. I'll post picture later of what has become of them. Some of the really tiny ones that were really screwed just didn't have enough umf to do it and I just tossed them, as I'm not nursing any cripples back from the death. However about 80% sprung longer roots and have started to look perky again! So I am thinking it might have been a success. Though we are still in ICU.

 

[Pod Racer]

Victory is MINE!

Victory is MINE!

Alright, not too bad. I've moved all the clones that had roots into soil under floros and will now let them try on their own for a bit.




Here is a twig that was fried on my flower table, I had hacked her to death and then she was just all ate up with mildew so I rinsed and washed her down to almost death. I thought a short stint in the aerocloner would aid, which kept her alive, but the Foliar feeding seems to have really knocked out some little growth spurts.



And what is left behind, these have no roots yet.



This one is going into a bubbler as she has like a foot long tap root.


And this was this about 12 hours ago, A little darker and the center is greening up I think it will make it. Pray for her, she is a bubbliscous.



And now Adult Swim in on, so I'm outtie.

 

[Pod Racer]

More on Aspirin

More on Aspirin

In one study, barely seedlings treated with salicylic acid showed 97% protection against powdery mildew for at least 12 days. Aspirin gave 93% protection. In this experiment, a concentration of 15mM (millimoles) was used. However, little of the salicylic acid (1.4%) moved into new plant tissues after 24 hours.

Syngenta, a chemical company, has produced a salicylic acid derivative called Actigard that is kinder and gentler to plants than salicylic acid or aspirin. Actigard will induce a systemic response within four days and is registered for prevention of certain diseases on leafy vegetables, tomatoes, and tobacco.


Hmmmmm.

However I've not been able to locate a retailer anywhere on the net? Oddly.

 

[Dan42nepa]

the only thing that sort of concerns me is the plants growing dependance on foilar feeding. If i fed frequently and stopped during flower.. Maybe there is no dependance, anyway, 3 times during veg is enough for me.

 

[Pod Racer]

And that might turn out to be all that is possible, however the leaves are 6 times as effective as transporting nutrients and have to draw them up through the stem to the canopy. Once established during Vegetative growth, flowering would place most of all the demands on the rootsystem for nutrient uptake, but the added canopy development would make better use of respiration and gas exchange only adding to the health and development of the bud sites. I believe though I suppose only time will tell.

 

[bartender187]

In one study, barely seedlings treated with salicylic acid showed 97% protection against powdery mildew for at least 12 days. Aspirin gave 93% protection. In this experiment, a concentration of 15mM (millimoles) was used. However, little of the salicylic acid (1.4%) moved into new plant tissues after 24 hours.

Salicylic acid acts as a signal to the plan that danger is on the horizon. Hence the plant makes sure its defenses are ready. I posted a few old case studies on Sal. Acid, interesting stuff for sure.

 

[Pod Racer]

Funny you should mention that.

I was just thinking to myself this afternoon that the use of Aspirin (sal acid) as an immuneboosting foliar spray should be able to have the same effect on humans to a degree. Thinking, if Sal Acid is so great as an all purpose cure all and plant extract that we can ingest internally then topically it must have similar effects.

Well I figured someone had already put this to use and though...hmmmm Gold Bond Medicated powder, I wonder if they use it.

Ha! I was right. lol Interesting how interconnected we are all plant and animal.

So I have attempted the 41mg per gallon mix with LK and Cal/MagPlus to make a super cocktail of healing goodness. Ph'ed out at 5.4 (right on target for maximum absorption) and a ppm of about 550. Basically a Nitrogen Calcium and Magnesium chelated booster, the Liquid Karma has Yucca extract just like the original gardener used and I ground and mixed in 41mg of Bayer non-coated aspirin.

I ended up spraying every plant in my house and they all have turned very green and perked right up. We'll see how much improvement they experience over the next few days. I treated my rooting clones as well as they are in dire need of some immune boosting. Everything is looking good. We are holding steady.

Uncle Bob, how is that rig comeing along?

 

[Dan42nepa]

i had started a thread once about aspirin and got these replys... I researched the hermaphrodite thing and found some validity to it on another site.

I remember reading somewhere that aspirin can be used to cause hermaphrodites in the production of all fem seeds. Anyone else remember reading this over on the old OG forum? I don't know how much truth there is to it, but I did read it - doesn't mean it's correct though. Just curious.

TGT

and another....


Originally Posted by Azra3l
Hello,

This is due to the fact that acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin ) is structurally close to salicylic acid (only a methyl group difference ). Salicylic acid is :
-a signal in plant defense
-an elicitor itself of systemic induced response
But you shouldn't use it too often because it will be responsible for a rapid burst of reactive oxygen species and thus diminution of stomatal aperture. On the long run, it will lower your production...
Cheers

 

[jaykush]

wow cant believe i missed this thread. ive been told i was a bit foliar crazy. i do it quite a bit actually, specially outdoors which can be up to a few times a day.

i like to spray with kelp, vitamins and minerals, guanos, nettles, sometimes with a slight epsom salts for mg rarely though. alfalfa is good as well.

Dan42nepa dont worry they wont become dependant just slowly start stoppong as flowering begins usually about 2 weeks in is when i stop. they wont become Dependant ive never seen that happen.

i also like to foliar with mountain spring water as its got some trace goodies in it. the plants love it.

 

[Pod Racer]

Excellent contribution friend. Thanks

jaykush, do you have a particular regime or schedule like for cuttings, seedlings, vegging? I'm finding I really like the use of foliar application as they do seem to take it right into the leaves where it is most needed during deficency. I can see the yellow actually shrinking as the chlorophyl is returning to production. Kelp seems to be a big hit with foliar feeders and I see Yucca extract in a lot of 'growth aids'.

Fascinating stuff, keep it up.

Dan42 I haven't heard of that but I will do some research. It would seem that high concentrations of Sal Acid will cause toxicity, in pets as well. Dog are administered no more than 10mg/lb. so a standard baby aspirin is toxic to a small dog of 10 lbs.

The herming of the female might be more in response to toxicity as they do that when threat of death and extinction arises. The same if you shock them with intervals of light, they get all confused and think 'damn it, self pollenate...we're under attack!'

 

[MaxYield]

Hi pod racer,
Where have heard of electrostatic sprayers?? Is it the same as the car paint shop, all the paints goes onto the car.

I'm gonna do some research, but if you can show me some of the data you've collected on thoses sprayers or the sound thing!

tnx

 

[Pod Racer]

Electrostatic Sprayers

Electrostatic Sprayers

The best I've found thus far:
Electrostatic Sprayers

I have not found any home versions yet, though I'm sure someone creative could devise one, like our home made ozone generators or Co2 generators. It's really just a mater of positively charging the mist as plants are naturally negatively charged.

Here is another device for backpack sprayers.

 

[whereisbrianV.]

POD RAAAAAACCCCCCEEEEEERRRRRR!

Never have I been so happy to see a set of fat fingers. I will be watching you like a hawk to keep any trolls from running you off again. Meza seez a new TAG tread in future. Anyway Good work on this tread VERY NICE!

 

[Pod Racer]

Hey is that a fat joke? lol

Hey is that a fat joke? lol

Ahhh Most Wecome my dear ol' friend.

I could not be happier to see your smiling face either, it has been way too long. I feel like I just found a lost Xmas present that had been missed - and its a brand new car! lol
So glad to see you my good friend, please pull up a chair, blanket..pillow, whatever and snuggle right in. I couldn't be happier to have you watching my back than anyone, and if anyone could kick a trolls ass its you buddy. I feel very protected now. What have you been up too? And I suppose you are correct I guess I should maybe attempt a general aero thread for all the racers to park their rigs at for meet and greet and share some advice. We'll just try and keep it much more liberal and open this time and hope all the asshats have found other sites to hound.

Still, so great to see you brianV. it has been too long. :friends:

I suppose some updates are expected. Nice to see that the Folitec/Penetrator along with the Aspirin/LK/Cal-Mag feedings have saved my little girl. She seems to have recovered very nicely for 48 hours. (Before and After shots)

The rooted clones have been moved into starter soil just to make sure they get up and running and I need some moms so there they are. Sprouting some seeds too, just for shits and grins.



Meanwhile we are just on the edge of popping roots, got calluses, just about another 24 hours and I should have cm long roots on these recovered clones. They are limping for sure, but have managed to survive where I thought for sure they'd be dead. I think I only lost about 15% overall, not bad for trying to masacre them.





and finally the best of the rooted clones got their own pots. I'll have my shit together here shortly. Now its getting warm, very warm, time to switch venting modes.

 

[Pod Racer]

Well 12 hours later and she is just taking off. I have to say this foliar feeding has recovered a lost cause for sure. I'm very impressed to see the effect about 24 hours later, each 12 hours sees another set of leaves.

And the clones are perking up.



and I was correct about having roots in 12 hours...I love being right.

and my future bubbles...popin seed now for fun these I fertilized off my first round of seeds, got about 5 on one girl - the first seedling is that beauty I have in soil her sibling.





I finally feel like I'm getting back on my feet finally, its taken me a year to adapt to this new climate here. Spring is going to be fun.

 

[Guest]

Pod Racer.... and seeds...... scarey......

Pod Racer.... and seeds...... scarey......

Man the way you know the craft...... you should go into breeding. I do a little my self.........eeerrrr I mean with MJ and crosses. I am setting up to do an AK-47 and Sour Diesel cross. Call it Diesel 47 LOL.

Peace

 

[Pod Racer]

Actually it is something of a goal of mine. I don't know if I'm quite ready for breeding mj but I do have a number of ideas of what I'd like to cross and see if I can't produce a superior strain like I have managed to do with my growing rig.

I'm still sampling the variety, which is stagering. I would most likely use Skunk#1 as a back bone, as its the True 8 in my book. But crosses would be for effect and growth characteristics as I've found certain strains have much nicer, and easier, trim designs.

I love the euphoric Sativas like Bubbliscous and the more recumbant Oasis (a NL line I think) but love the Spiritual aspects of Kush. Oddly each strain has a significant effect on my consciousness I find. The Hindu Kush has me rambling like a holy man for hours about the interconnectiveness of all things, whereas the Bubble has me laughing and giggling and just skipping around the yard like fairy. lol Oasis, like a warm bath and I think of nothing but peace.

Like a true medicinal I would be aiming for prescription based crosses. But I've not had the luxury of growing safely until now and I'm still getting set up. But, yeah, that is an eventual goal as I am definitely a bearer of the burning bush and deciple of the Ærocanna - my own little religion of sorts. I'd love nothing more in life than to just grow, create and cultivate the most flawless kind on Earth. Lofty goal I'm sure, but we all have to have one. Why not aim for the stars, right?

But it will take much, much more research... as I haven't sample nearly enough strains.

If anyone has any favorites or suggestions, please feel free to share or direct in that direction. I'd love to learn more.

 

[payn4school]

what up my friends! Thanks for the pursuit perfection pod racer. tons of often overlooked information.

I got a question or two,

What is the combination of nutes you are using, how much of each and how ofter? What are the reasons for using each peticular nute? I I believe you are attributing the fast recovery to this formulation, is that correct?
Also the asprin. That strickly for immunity to mold and fungus I take it? It doesnt promote any faster growth or anything does it.

later friends
payn

 

[20kw dreams]

Hey PR, here's what I know about foliar. I only bothered to read the first post, so please forgive me if any of this info is repatative.

1) Ph should be acidic. Slightly, as in above 5 to 6.5
2) stomata should be open. Wind, high light, low humidity will discourage open stomata.
3) Atomizers produce best results.
4) Do NOT spray the leaves heavily. Once water begins to collect and bead, you have sprayed too much. Cohesion of water molecules make adsorbtion of water and it's solutes less more difficult. Fine mist is best, as you have mentioned
5) Spreader/stickers and chelating agents help with the adsorbtion.

Be careful, as foliar makes your plants more sensitive to light. This can be a good thing, but watch it if your not used to foliar feeding.

BTW, Yucca is an organic "spreader/sticker"

For those who are not familiar with foliar feeding, be very careful. It is not a cure-all. It does not replace proper nutrition. It aids in assisting plants uptake nutrients which may be in short supply in the feed nutrient, as well as introducing hormones, enzymes, trace elements, and other growth enhancers. Foliar feeding can though be a "quick fix" or way to introduce chemicals, however short term and will not aid in the development in root or stem.

Hope that helps