a 'true' male from S1 seeds?

[frito bandito]

A Y chromosome does indeed guarantee maleness, it does not guarantee male expression.

and what's the practical difference?

there is no practical difference between an XX plant that produces only pistils, and an XY plant that does the same. in practice both are female plants. you would have no clue one has a Y unless you looked under a microscope. nor is there a difference between an XY or XX that produce male flowers. both are males. "Y chromosome = male" is something you just made up. it's not actually true, in practice.

 

[GMT]

When talking about selfing a plant, it is normal to be refering to the process of applying chemicals to force a female to produce male flowers that it would not otherwise produce. It is not the case that when talking about selfing, we are normally talking about a naturally intersexed plant that pollinated itself. Normally on these boards, thats simply called a hermie mess.

 

[GMT]

for the smoker who simply grows it to smoke, there is no pragmatical difference, however when using such plants to breed with, the difference is in the inheritance.

 

[lost in a sea]

there are autosomal xo "males" but xy males do also exist within the cannabis gene pool..

 

[xmobotx]

so, where is the male plant that started all this controversy?

 

[SmokeTrees]

give it up GMT. People have found males in S1 beans. Dont get all pissed off science crusader cause people have found them in there own experiences.
Have you grown out hundreds of feminized beans at one time? thousands at once? I have real life friends who have popped over a thousand beans in one grow.... People find males in S1s/feminzed beans. You can argue it all you want, im simply stating real life experiences

 

[GMT]

no your are stating that the research conducted in this area is irrelevant and that your friends who looked at something with their eyes are the experts in the field.

Here's some quotes from true experts

Citation Context (1)
·
o ...Research on hemp cytology took place relatively early: Hirata (1928) not only established the 2n = 20 chromosome number, but also demonstrated the presence of the heterochromosomes and proved that in dioecious hemp the inheritance of sex was based on the XY...
Paolo Ranalli. Current status and future scenarios of hemp breeding

Identification of DNA markers linked to the male sex in dioecious hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) (Citations: 44)
G. Mandolino, A. Carboni, S. Forapani, V. Faeti, P. Ranalli
A 400-bp RAPD marker generated by a primer of random decamer sequence has been found associated with the male sex phenotype in 14 dioecious cultivars and accessions of hemp (Cannabis sativa L.). The primer OPA8 generates a set of bands, most of which polymorphic among all the individual plants tested, and 1 of which, named OPA8400, present in all male plants and absent in female plants. A screening of 167 plants belonging to different genotypes for the association of the OPA8400 marker with the sex phenotype revealed that only in 3 cases was the 400-bp band was present in plants phenotypically female; on the contrary, in male plants the band was never missing, while in monoecious plants it was never present. Despite this sex-specific association, the sequences corresponding to OPA8400 were present in both staminate and carpellate plants, as revealed by Southern blotting and hybridization with the cloned RAPD band. The RAPD marker was sequenced, and specific primers were constructed. These primers generated, on the same genotypes used for RAPD analysis, a SCAR marker 390 bp in length and male-specific. This SCAR is suitable for a precise, early and rapid identification of male plants during breeding programs of dioecious and monoecious hemp.
Journal: Theoretical and Applied Genetics - THEOR APPL GENET , vol. 98, no. 1, pp. 86-92, 1999
DOI: 10.1007/s001220051043

Citation Context (28)
·
o ...Further, the female-specific OPN061280 and hermaphrodite-specific OPN16400 could be used to generate a more reliable SCAR marker (Paran and Michelmore 1993) for better reproducibility as has been achieved in many plants such as Mercurialis annua, Carica papaya, and Cannabis sativa (Mondolino et al. 1999; Khadka et al. 2002; Urasaki et al. 2002)...
Sanghamitra Samantaray, et al. Identification of RAPD markers linked to sex determination in guggal [...
·
o ...39.9% for MADC1 and 40.4% for MADC2 in Cannabis sativa L. (Mandolino et al. 1998) as well as 45% for OPA10-710 and 33% for OPN11-1095 in Aucuba japonica Thunb...
Mei LiHua, et al. A male-specific SCAR marker in Calamus simplicifolius , a dioecious ra...

 

[GMT]

hehe, sorry I have to add a chuckle at science crusader being used as an insult.

 

[Greyskull]

they aren't males, there are plenty of threads on this. the science is simple, a plant inherits one sex chromosome from each parent, in S1's, 2 from the same parent. If that parent is female, then that means the offspring can only inherit x chromosomes, and cant inherit a Y. Therefore it cant be male.

well if its not a male, and its not a female, which restroom does it use?

traditionally we think of hermaphrodites as showing signs of both sexes, right? confused.....

so complicated....

so.... if a plant is only showing MALE traits... even if it came from a reversed female and theoretically should have YY chromosomes... why arent the theoretical female signs showing? science says they should right?
cmon science!!!!! (not being a smart ass. im too stupid. being sarcastic)

and the pollen from male born s1s pollinates? so theyre not firing blanks... hmmmmm

are these just chicks w dicks, that arent firing blanks?
no. its chicks w dicks firing live rounds.
same thing.
how?
chicks dont have dicks!
and chicks with dicks dont fire live ammo...
so what gives then?

and.....
what about male plants XY.
that only show FEMALE traits?
Ive never seen one but doesnt mean I havent seen one. how do you know if youve seen one.
or not?

maybe everything is a hermaphrodite......
stirring the pot


and btw that male i found in the s1s (and lost) was from seeds produced from environmental manipulation not any "applied substance"... the plants just selfed....


edit: if it looks like a duck, quacks like a ducks, its a turducken. fuck yeah

 

[Greyskull]

Greyskull found a sour dubble male out of 300 sour dub s1s

hey bro
i hate to say this, but you cant use me as an example
HAHAHAHA

we gotta stick to mere mortals and their experiences - not the divine idiots
hahahahahahaha


man
i fucked up not keeping that male alive
or getting it to zoolander or sub or you...

my bad....

sorry folks the oil is good...

 

[Easy7]

I had at least one male in a pack of OG s1 years back, no hermies though..........just a fact.

 

[GMT]

Hi Greyskull, well, first off, assuming we are talking diploids, (confusion does arise when discussing anything more complex such as triploids etc) then it is always either male or female, regardless of the flowers produced. That doesn't stop it being a fucked up example of one or the other though.
Traditionally I agree with that definition of a hermie, but its not technicaly correct, but yes in generaly I also use that way of "thinking".
A reversed female should pass on XX not YY but I have no doubt that was just a simple easy stoner moment and you know that already.
Well, no, science says in a healthy individual they would, there are also unhealthy individuals.
Again, are you talking about males born from male Selfed pants there? or females born from female Selfed plants that are showing male flowers? I suspect the latter. The reason that is possible is that the info for producing the flowers arent contained in the sex chromosomes. The sex chromosomes are the parts of the dna that tell the areas of the dna that contain the instructions for flower production, which flowers to produce. The female plants contain the instructions for producing the male flowers in all cases, but normally they aren't activated. Its like a cell in the toe contains the dna for making a heart, but the toe doesn't have a heart in it.
The truth is, you never would know if you had seen a male that only expressed female flowers, until you bred with it and checked out the offspring. And in some cases the offspring of the offspring.
In your opinion then, using the traditional term rather than the scientific one, would you simply accept that you had a hermie pollinate itself?
.

 

[SmokeTrees]

no you guys dont understand. Please stop filing the boards with bullshit. you are just repeating old bullshit someone else spouted to you trying to look like they knew what they were talking about. they didn't and neither do you. you are wrong its not up for debate its not a matter of opinion, its just fact. 1+1=2, males cant be found in seeds from reversed females, its just the way it is. Please stop confusing people, please stop trying to sound like you know anything, you are wrong its not possible. sheesh.

this is what pissed me off. Your saying im repeating old bullshit someone else spouted, when im talking from experience of real life friends.
Ok so Greyskulls s1's were actual selfed plants, from whatever factors, but he did not induce it with STS or CS.
now growtech reversed a x18 female with STS. in those he had all females, but one male which only showed male flowers, no signs of female. He used the male on the other females to make f2s/s2s.
like greyskull was asking, if its not a true male, why does it have viable pollen?
Are you saying frito is making false claims / spreading inaccurate info?

wrong.

cannabis sativa does not use an X/Y system for sexual determination.

i can hear you saying now: "but but but....there is a Y chromosome!"

sure there is. yet, it's quite possible for a cannabis plant to have a Y chromosome and be female, or vice versa. that is because sexual expression in cannabis sativa (just like in hops) is determined by X/autosomal factors, not solely by the presence or absence of a Y chromosome.

yes it is entirely possible and normal to get a male plant from an S1'd female.

So the males found in s1s, which have viable pollen are still considered hermies? thats correct GMT?
I really want to understand this. Cause i have been under the impression its totally possible to find males in s1's, just extremely rare

 

[GMT]

To be honest, when the info is already posted on the boards, and the scientific papers backing up the info are all linked into the existing threads, and rather than taking the time to read and learn, people come on saying they saw something that looked like something, therefore anyone else who disagrees is wrong, it does piss me off, and I did lose my rag. I shouldn't have. But to quote anecdotal evidence as being superior to documented peer reviewed scientific findings, well to science crusaders like me, it is a red rag to a bull.

Frito has demonstrated in this thread that he doesn't understand/want to understand the science. Given that information, its not surprising that the info he provides may contain inaccuracies, whether they are deliberate or examples of honest mistakes isn't my call to make.
Growtechs f2s will all be females, the health of those females is uncertain.
The so called males in S1s from a female parent are females who show only male flowers.
As I said the instructions for making pollen isn't in the sex chromosomes, that's how plants that only contain female sex chromosomes can still produce pollen.

 

[SmokeTrees]

and thats what i have wondered all along. Since only the female chromosomes were present, would the f2's/s2s be only females. So i guess you just answered that for me. This was something i was asking when Growtech first found the male and he was debating to keep it alive for seed or not.
Guess ill have to one day do a mass seed run of those beans to see if in fact they all end up females.
Now if those were indeed all females, and they didnt grow shitty mutant weird genetic disaster plants... Then one would almost say it would have been smart to have kept that Male/He/She as it would have been pretty bad ass to keep a clone around that only passes female plants in its offspring....

So what your saying is although its a male, its really a female. as it has only the female chromosomes. So is what greyskull asking about having a male plant, that has female buds, is that possible as well? a plant with male chromosomes, but female sex parts? lol

 

[igrowone]

i knew this would generate some heat, still some very good posts
i'll be mining this thread a long time for info, lot to take in
the 1 item that is really mind twisting was about the ball producing gene not being in the Y chromosome, or whatever the hell chromosome the male has, too blown away by information to be sure any more
one poster asked where the male was, my 'male' is in my grow sig, not much to look at
i'll post a fresh pic i a few days, checked for any signs of pistils, don't see any, does have a very nice odor which may make it worth something

 

[SmokeTrees]

shit if what GMT is saying is right, you might want to clone and hold onto that male. What if passes of badass traits, and only female plants....

 

[igrowone]

shit if what GMT is saying is right, you might want to clone and hold onto that male. What if passes of badass traits, and only female plants....

i'm pretty much confused beyond hope now, maybe some more reading will help
it's currently in my new grow room, and been plucking the balls, i'm not getting my nice new room infested with pollen
freeze drying is my best option, i'll move it by a window, males don't need much light to finish
i don't grow that many plants, so i'm still sceptical this is all that special,

 

[Tom Hill]

Excellent posts GMT, Imo, except for blaming the occasional faulty sex chromosome for not silencing what you seem to be assuming is an ever rich reversal modifiers located in autosomal regions. This fault, would it be localized completely within the PAR? I know there is some recombination occurring there, but a drop in the bucket compared to the totality of autosomal recombination. If your hypothesis were correct, it would seem to me that cannabis would have completely evolved to dioecy (the default) by now? It has to be more complicated than a faulty sex chromosome me thinks.

At any rate thanks for taking the time to put it out there man. I know it can get frustrating with the "if it walks like a duck" crowd, but I apreciate it amigo, nice posts. -T

 

[GMT]

Thanks, Tom, i think. For the purpose of informing the buyers of seeds on a canna website, I intentionally (and because I'm lazy) avoided talking about wild populations of cannabis or the wider Hemp situation. It would only have complicated things further. Its like talking about the human body without referencing the other 4 ape groups. There are differences, even though they are tiny when considering the whole and in cannabis the differences are much greater. We can talk about the complications arising from introducing landrace strains into the commercial seed market, however when discussing the "domesticated" (for want of a better word), canna strains, that have already been worked to the point that they can be referred to as being fully dioecious, and then discussing cases where this ceases to be true, the fault lies in copying errors arising. I don't feel that that is merely my hypothesis, but rather a particularly well studied aspect of sexual determination in cannabis for some time. I have made reference to these errors being possible in either the recombining or non recombining areas, though without using such language. I do try to avoid jargon when ever possible as I always feel its best to present information in a manner that makes it easiest for the widest possible audience to appreciate. And quite honestly, I didn't think you'd have the patience to go through it all again yourself . Just glad kopite didnt get a hold of anyone in here or he'd have been banned under yet another name by now lol.