A Complete Guide to Topping, Training and Pruning

[gates3rd]

Hi,

i learned much from that board here , and thats what i have done with all that knowledge in LST

Love that shape

Have 5 more plants that ive trained with lst, 1 of them is grown in a cyrcle ^^

Thx for all the input ypu gave me and still give me,

cheers

Left Pic:
Trainwreck by Greenhouse Seeds
Right Pic:
BigBang by Greenhouse Seeds

 

[Cannasseur]

Great job. What an awesome compilation of info, Kodiak.

I would like to discuss and elaborate a bit more on the topic of 'Apical Dominance' though. Not at an all an attempt to bash your message, I just would like to make some clarification for my own benefit. So here goes, My query is in reference to the rest of the horticultural world, rather than just cannabis. I apologize for getting abit off topic, but I feel like I need to clear things up.

Recently, I partook in a course on Shade Tree Maintenance. During this time, we brushed over the topic of 'Apical Dominance' vs. 'Apical Control'. From what I gathered from the class, that typically Gymnosperms like Pines (Pinus spp.), Spruces (Picea spp.), etcetera were described to have strong 'Apical Control' and weak 'Apical Dominance'. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Most angiosperms such as Ash (Fraxinus spp.) and Oak (Quercus spp.) were described as having strong 'Apical Dominance' and weak 'Apical Control'. This results in a decurrent or spreading form. Is this correct? You stated that "The main shoot sends suppressive hormones down to the lower branches which stops them from growing" resulting in said plant having a triangular form, and it left me in a wake of confusion questioning my last 15 weeks in the course. I was under the impression that plants that displaying 'Apical Dominance' had lateral bud growth that was inhibited by the concentration of auxins in the terminal bud. From there, I thought that after 1 year of new growth was set, the lateral buds would begin their elongation. From your explanation, I feel like I may be going in the wrong direction. It's very possible my professor was misguided, so I would love to hear the input of some other sources on the subject.

 

[Kodiak]

g0vnaa, try to get all the LST'ing done by the time the plants start flowering. You can still make adjustments later on.

Good work gates3rd Textbook training.

You are right Cannasseur. Thanks for pointing that out. Like many before me, I assumed that the two mechanisms were the same. They are infact two different processes that control different parts of the plant. I'll make the necessary changes to the text.

Perhaps this picture will help to illustrate the difference:

The term apical control was introduced in order to describe the functions on woody perennial plants, where new growth forms each year. The main crown on a tree for example has higher priority than perennial branching. Which is why it grows mostly vertically.

Apical dominance on the other hand is the mechanism that favors the terminal or main shoot over axillary buds.

Cannabis plants (and probably all other annual plants) would have strong apical dominance, meaning that the growth of lateral branches is not suppressed but the main shoot is favored over the axillary buds further down. Removing the main shoot will allow them to grow.

Apical dominance is regulated by the ratio of auxin vs cytokinin but how exactely apical control works is still unknown.

The way I see it. When you top the plant enough times, the effect of these two mechanism diminish in capacity and the growth becomes more uniform and spread out.

 

[Cannasseur]

That was exactly what I needed. Now I see where my confusion began. I neglected the fact that in order for apical control to be present, the plant must undergo dormancy before the lateral buds will elongate.

Thanks for the clarification and swift reply Kodiak.

 

[ERVABUE]

f***i missed toping

f***i missed toping

hi kodiak have been reading your manual, but never toped a plant before and would like a opinion about my plants if they are ready for such a stress.they are with 39 days old and are under 13/11
Super Lemon Haze

or should i wait some more time?
let a mensage recently at your 'home' and leave you a pic of my Black J's starting week 10 of flowering from now on plain water
http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?autocom=gallery&req=si&img=26552

 

[Kodiak]

Yes, they look ready to me. Apparently the SLH is not a heavy yielder but it seems to have good structure. Short internodes and so on but since you are topping them, you also have to give them some more time in veg. It's difficult to say how long exactely but say 3 weeks, perhaps more. The longer you can veg them the better but make sure that you have enough room. During this time you can also train them so that they will cover entire grow area. Adding a scrog net will make this process much easier.

Try to keep them as compact as possible because the cfl's will not penetrate that far.

The plants seem a bit too skinny right now but what I would eventually aim for here is a few strong colas per plant. FIM top for that effect or top a second time if needed and tie down the branches for an even canopy.

I don't think that it will give you too much trouble. Since the mother plant of this cross is the Skunk, you could be looking at some fairly early, citrusy, sweet skunk phenos. Nicely structured buds, heavy and not too airy. Insane amounts of resin. One of the best looking plants from GHS so far.

Here are some pictures from this thread. You might want to check it out.

 

[ERVABUE]

FIM and Topping Twice

FIM and Topping Twice

Hi Kodiak buddy,thank you for your reply above and link,really can wait this 4 months of sativa time as never had such a premium smoke before as should absolutely be SLH.Probably will try the FIM and top twice the biggest .thank you for all your efforts and the guide,
have pinch them today,let you some images of the bj's in week 10 of flowering
thank you again,without it certainly would take more time and mistakesjust a bit worried with some leafs die at top

 

[straintester]

Awesome thanks!

Awesome thanks!

I bow to you...

Really.... the pics, the info....... WOW!
I think you should write a book!!!


THANK YOU!

WOW!
What an amazing example of a 'more than helpful' tutorial.
And I agree that you should write a book.
Great photos and detail.
Thank you

 

[ERVABUE]

Black Jack take time to go amber

Black Jack take time to go amber

hi again today,kodiak buddy now have other than the SLH training ,the Black Jacks of 100 days to harvest and found this in the other site about
http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=38959
think have to wait some 2 more weeks and harvest then at week 12 or 13 ,have a 30x jeweler loupe to help me watch the trichomes mutation ,doing some harvest of faster phenotypes by now and wait for the rest.every plant a different being and want to be aware at climax of each one in time.did gave reference and posted a few pics from your guide of training at my last Black Jack thread presentation in portuguese sub forum

 

[Kodiak]

Yeah, looking at the trichomes is the ticket. All plants are different as you pointed out. It's harvest time when the buds are nice and fat and the most of the trichomes have turned cloudy. Getting fat buds under cfl's is not as easy as when you are using a HPS, so give the plants the time that they need.

I'm sure that your SLH will do great as long as you train them properly and allow them enough time to pack on some weight before you flip the switch. Best of luck ERVABUE.

Thanks straintester, I really appreciate the positive vibes. Perhaps I will write a book some day.

 

[Cousin Cleatis]

Kodiak,

How long in flower can you super crop w/o stressing out the plants?

I usually top early and stake when there are four main shoots (in veg) and pull shoots to the edges of the bucket so the inner canopy can gets light. Takes up bit of room but I seem to get 2 oz +plus a plant (5gal pots in soil). Would super croppingh be to much to add?

Awesome thread with great info, thanks for helpings some of us noobs out. It s greatly appreciated!

 

[Kodiak]

Hi Cleatis,

Your technique sounds a lot like mine. I like the idea of taking the training one step further by adding super cropping to the regime. It might be a good idea as long as you don't do everything at once. Top first, then LST for a while and finally super crop for even more strength. This will naturally take some time so you will have to be patient.

It's always best to get most of the training done during veg but plants do recover quite quickly from super cropping as long as you provide the branches with ample support. I would say that you could still super crop a few weeks into flowering but not much later if you want the plant to actually benefit from it.

The problem is not so much the stress but the time it takes for the plant to recover. The older the fracture is, the stronger it will also be.

I find that stressing out your plant is a good thing since I want to know how stable they are. That means that I do not go out of my way to keep the stress to a minimum. Quite the opposite actually since stability is just as important as potency in my book. Stress-testing is part of the training process, where I weed out the hermies.

 

[Airnut]

I got this wierd problem in my E/F

Up left corner a normal white rhino cut!
Around the middle a monstercrop white rhino!
Everything else is Red lebanese monstercrop!

But when i compare a normal WR flower to a monster WR i get this.

Normal left monster right!
Every red lebanese hair has completly turned brown.
Around 60-80% are amber and no major growth in the monstercrops since week 4!

PH 5.9 EC 2.0
Pics are 5 weeks after start of 12/12
Light: 2 x 600 HPS mixed in 1 digi bal with GIB bulb, and 1 mag bal with grolux.

Any thoughts of why they behave like this?

 

[Kodiak]

Since it has only been a week, I would not be too worried. The plants might still bounce back and continue flowering.

Start a thread in the infirmary because you will need more help.

It is really difficult to pinpoint the problem since there are so many factors to consider but I am pretty sure that it is environmental. Something is off, unless the plants themselves cannot handle the stress of being revegged/monster cropped. Either way, the growth seems stunted and the plants are clearly struggling for some reason. Almost as if they were shutting down.

You could try to manipulate the environment in order to pinpoint the problem. Start by turning off one of the lights and see where that takes you. Creating a softer environment might help to alleviate the symptoms.

Check with other E/F growers that you ph and EC is alright. The ph sounds a little bit low to me but then again I love growing in soil and would not know the right specs for your setup. The problem could also be nutrient related.

Have you looked for pests on the plants? Plants can get very sick if they are infested with parasites. This problem can manifest itself in many ways.

Look towards the infirmary for help, especially from other E/F growers.

 

[Airnut]

Thx..

 

[firefox]

Very nice threadimpressed...nice one..

 

[g0vnaa]

I have an idea but I`m not sure it will work.
What do you guys think of this:

I think it is quite simple.
Grow the plant at some size, bend down and get peel of the top.
Remove leaves and skin but leave the branches ( they will even look kinda roots). Then use some rooting stimulator ( the one you use for cloning ) and plant the top in deep in the ground.
This should leave you with 1 plant but with the root for 2.
So it should have more energy to make it bigger, stronger, better
What do you think ? Will this work ?

 

[Kodiak]

It's a cool idea but I don't think that it will work.

I tried something similar a few years back. I used the lower branches for the same purpose. I made a transverse cut along the branch and stuck it into the ground, hoping that it would grow roots. It never did and started to rot instead.

I'm not saying that it will work but you could try to use a glass of water and some rooting hormones instead of sticking it into the dirt.

 

[snuggles]

i had such kind of phenomen in a greenhouse some years ago with a big super skunk lady bended down after her tops quickly reached the glassroof.
her branches were that fat and heavy so they began to hang down onto the ground. didn't gave her any sticks or ropes to support growing as i didn't know it better at that time.
after a few weeks of blooming with the branches laying on the ground, she started to root again from the side of those branches down to the moist ground of the greenhouse. the mainstem was still in the air, growing back upwards to the light again but the parts that were bended down and were nearest to the ground did start to root at some spots. there was no rotting at all and i didn't use any hormones or wonderstuff as this happened accidentally and without any purposes.
so in that case the mainstem was not planted directly into the soil like you painted above. i guess that would end up in rotting, too.
it just layed down really close to the moist ground of the greenhouse and started to build up a new secondary rootsystem on its own.

rgds,
snuggles.

 

[Cousin Cleatis]

Hi Cleatis,

Your technique sounds a lot like mine. I like the idea of taking the training one step further by adding super cropping to the regime. It might be a good idea as long as you don't do everything at once. Top first, then LST for a while and finally super crop for even more strength. This will naturally take some time so you will have to be patient.

It's always best to get most of the training done during veg but plants do recover quite quickly from super cropping as long as you provide the branches with ample support. I would say that you could still super crop a few weeks into flowering but not much later if you want the plant to actually benefit from it.

The problem is not so much the stress but the time it takes for the plant to recover. The older the fracture is, the stronger it will also be.

I find that stressing out your plant is a good thing since I want to know how stable they are. That means that I do not go out of my way to keep the stress to a minimum. Quite the opposite actually since stability is just as important as potency in my book. Stress-testing is part of the training process, where I weed out the hermies.

TY Sir!