A Basic Compost Tea Guide

[Clackamas Coot]

Here's a couple of more......

WPF = Weasel Piss F!ck - usually considered a Mafia term for an individual who is being considered for a 'come to Jesus meeting' as it were.

FNG = F!ckin' New Guy - American military term used widely during the Vietnam War and generally applied to recent graduates from West Point, Annapolis, Air Force Academy, OTS, etc.

HTH

CC

 

[Trichgnomes]

Yucca is a foam suppressant!

Yucca is a foam suppressant!

I believe Jaykush replied to my yucca comment by saying that it actually increases foaming. I happened to be browsing through the CT Brewing guide, 5th edition (Ingham), and found this on pages 38-39:
"Foam can be supressed by using organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!. Don't use commercial defoamers-- every one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea."

 

[secondtry]

Really? WPF? That's too funny.

FNG is something I have heard but never new what it meant.

Thanks.

 

[secondtry]

Yucca extract does increase foaming. Dr. Ingham is not the best source of info. A surfactant lowers the water tension, doesn't necessarily effect foaming AFAIK, but yucca does increase foaming. And v.oil is not a surfactant, but it will reduce foaming.

Yucca extract should be applied very sparingly due to the "saponins" which tend to be anti-microbial. Yucca has good brix levels but also saponins which IMO make yucca something to apply very lightly; YMMV; but only a little is needed. And I don't think yucca should be in ACT in the first place...

Be careful with use of surfactants with growing plants, the media can become phytotoxic fast, one application is all that should be used; that will last for months by attaching to media particles and continuing to increase the "rewettability" of media particles (to a plateau).

HTH

 

[secondtry]

Heres two more:

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary; means the results should apply to other person, but maybe not.

IMO = In My Opinion

 

[Clackamas Coot]

RE: Yucca Extract

I have used human food-grade yucca as a surfactant, emulsifier (specifically for neem tree seed oil) and as a 'wetting agent' in the soil both for containers as well as in raised beds.

As a matter of fact, the organic potting soil products from Sunshine (Sunshine Organic Growers Mix and their Sunshine Organic Germination Mix) use yucca extract as their wetting agent.

A source for this specific yucca extract is available via mail order from T & J Enterprises in Spokane, Washington. That link will show a Yucca Extract list of links on the right hand side of the page.

I'm familiar with the saponin arguments (both pro and con) and have concluded that the benefits of light applications when used correctly are a benefit.

YMMV as usual.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I believe Jaykush replied to my yucca comment by saying that it actually increases foaming. I happened to be browsing through the CT Brewing guide, 5th edition (Ingham), and found this on pages 38-39:
"Foam can be supressed by using organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!. Don't use commercial defoamers-- every one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea."

Trichgnomes

It IS a foaming agent used in soft drinks (root beer specifically) and in shampoos, soaps, etc. Especially with folks who make their own soaps for sales at the local farmer markets around here.

HTH

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Here's the technical data from the yucca extract product I linked to:

TECHNICAL DATA

DESCRIPTION: pure, natural extract of the Mohave Yucca Plant (Yucca schidigera).
CONCENTRATION: 50 Brix ? 0.5 @ 20? C
INGREDIENTS: 99.9% Yucca schidigera extract, 0.1% Sodium benzoate*
SAPONINS: 10-12%
APPEARANCE: Pourable liquid brown in color.
DENSITY: 10 lbs per gallon
pH: 3.9 ? 0.2
PACKAGING: Packed in 1 pt, 1 qt, 1 gallon, 5 gallon and 55 gallon plastic drums with a guaranteed shelf life of two years when stored at 5 ? 25? C. Note: As a natural extract there may be some slight settling of insoluble solids found over time in the bottom of the drums.
REGULATORY: Mohave Yucca (Yucca schidigera) is approved for use in food and beverages by the FDA under CFR 172.510, FEMA number 3121. Allowed for use in organic production* under 7 U.S.C 605 and N.O.P. 205.602. Exempt from the requirement of a tolerance as specified in 40 CFR 180.1001

HTH

CC

 

[jaykush]

I believe Jaykush replied to my yucca comment by saying that it actually increases foaming. I happened to be browsing through the CT Brewing guide, 5th edition (Ingham), and found this on pages 38-39:
"Foam can be supressed by using organic surfactants, such as yucca or vegetable oil (not olive or canola oil!. Don't use commercial defoamers-- every one we have tested kills the organisms in the tea."

tell that to the 200+ brews i did with natural yucca i collected myself. the problem with most yucca on the market is they have preservatives in them. its very hard to find a source without one. i had to just press the yucca myself. it was fun but not worth it.

if you dont believe me try it out for yourself. thats the only one true way to get your own opinion.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

tell that to the 200+ brews i did with natural yucca i collected myself. the problem with most yucca on the market is they have preservatives in them. its very hard to find a source without one. i had to just press the yucca myself. it was fun but not worth it.

jaykush

That's why I was happy to find the specific yucca product that I did, i.e. no preservatives. Many of the yucca extract products in nurseries and grow stores do not use the no preservative product as you noted.

CC

 

[Trichgnomes]

I wasn't discrediting your experiences, by any means. I personally have never used yucca in a tea, but have not had a reason to either. I simply found it interesting that someone that pioneered soil food web philosophy (despite that fact that many have since had divergent opinions, thus the evolution of science) would quote that. It was my first time reading it. In my initial post regarding yucca as reducing foam, I mentioned that I was unsure, and at the time I was indeed referring to a post in which you mentioned it increasing foam dramatically. Perhaps she was using an extremely miniscule amount? I am simply curious as to why there are such contrasting opinions on the matter.

 

[secondtry]

Hey guys,

The problem with yucca is the preservatives, but also saponins (they are anti-microbial in most cases in certain quantities) which are present in yucca itself and are what makes it a surfactant; they come from the yucca. I would imagine we would be better off using yucca when knowing how much saponins are present.

The only preservative free commercial yucca extract I know of is from "T&J Enterprises" (CC, is that your source too?). If so that stuff is great, but too much could be less than helpful. JK, that company T&J offers yucca extra with and without preservatives, I use the kind without preservatives.

I guess an important issue is the suggested application rate and the % of saponin. This would be easy enough to test by brand and then all ICers could know the correct amount to apply due to testing with brewing ACT...anyone up for a controlled, well documented and thought out study?

T&J Enterprises Yucca without preservatives:

• brix = 50%
• saponin = 11% (avg.)
• label usage = "add 1/4 cup per 5 gallons of diluted microbe tea after the tea is brewed..." (I don't feel like doing the math to ml/gal right now)

ThremX70 Yucca with preservatives:

• brix = ?
• saponin = 20%
• label usage = "8 fluid ounces to 100 gallons of water" (I don't feel like doing the math to ml/gal right now)

 

[Clackamas Coot]

secondtry

Yes - T & J is the source I use for non-preservative, organic, human food-grade yucca extract.

CC

 

[TheGreenReaper]

I posted this a few pages ago, and using poor judgement posted the question in the middle of the microscope mania. I will try again, and once again thanks to all the microbial veterans for the free association of knowledge.

Alright, I cant get this off my mind and need an expert to tell me if I am off base. Is there a place for organic yogurt in making teas. I figure the lactose is a sugar source, casein and other milk protiens are present, and you have a host of probiotic bacteria. I know I have read about growers using milk as a foliar to beat PM and innoculate.

Maybe I am thinking of this the wrong way, but I cant be the first to think of this. Anyone used yogurt or any thoughts on adding yogurt to the teas?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I posted this a few pages ago, and using poor judgement posted the question in the middle of the microscope mania. I will try again, and once again thanks to all the microbial veterans for the free association of knowledge.

Alright, I cant get this off my mind and need an expert to tell me if I am off base. Is there a place for organic yogurt in making teas. I figure the lactose is a sugar source, casein and other milk protiens are present, and you have a host of probiotic bacteria. I know I have read about growers using milk as a foliar to beat PM and innoculate.

Maybe I am thinking of this the wrong way, but I cant be the first to think of this. Anyone used yogurt or any thoughts on adding yogurt to the teas?

TheGreenReaper

My apologies as I read your post before I went out to run some errands and forget about your query.

The answer to your question is a general 'no' as it relates to brewing an aerated compost tea with these lactobacillus bacteria.

Having said that, there IS a place for using lactobacillus in a grow and a typical product used is EM-1 (from EMAMERICA.com) and I won't bore you with all of the details surrounding that product/technology - a good read however.

Back to your question about yogurt - you might find it helpful to do a search on BIM (Beneficial Indigenous Microbes) and homemade bokashi culture.

You'll be pleased with your research, IMHO

Peace

CC

 

[secondtry]

Hey CC,

Yea that's the same source I use for preservative free yucca extract. I wasn't stating yucca is bad, I was stating too much yucca is bad, a single application is all it takes. By reapplying any surfactant one can/will create phytotoxic environ, if not to roots then repeated re-application of saponin can't be good to many microbes do to it's anti-microbial properties (esp. bacteria). I can attach two very good and recent studies discussing the effects of surfactants and how long they last, etc, et al. But to sum it up: one correct application is generally enough, that's why I don't apply surfactant to drench water if using sunshine or pro-mix organic mix (which both have yucca). Once the surfactant is applied to media it is effective for many weeks, and months for inorganic surfactants.

I think a point worth making is about the "Hydration Index" of the substrate, most are > 0.8, but they should be > 0.9 and after application of surfactants the media generally is. The hydration index is pretty much a measure of how easily the media can absorb water. Another point is the rewettability of media, it's important to stay above the low benchmark to insure the media will easily absorb water every time. For example, according to W.Agro (circa 2007) aged pine bark fines become hydrophobic at 35% moisture content (by wet weight), and > 50% moisture content aged pine bark fines offer the easiest rewettability, peat also has ranges, as does coir. All these factors are effected by a single application of surfactant, and the effect remains for weeks and months.

HTH

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hey CC,

Yea that's the same source I use for preservative free yucca extract. I wasn't stating yucca is bad, I was stating too much yucca is bad, a single application is all it takes. By reapplying any surfactant one can/will create phytotoxic environ, if not too roots then re-application of saponin can't be good to many microbes. I can attach two very good and recent studies discussing the effects of surfactants and how long they last, etc, et al. But to sum it up: one application is enough, that's why I don't apply surfactant to drench water if using sunshine or pro-mix organic mix (which both have yucca). Once the surfactant is applied to media it is effective for many weeks, and months for inorganic surfactants.

I think a point worth making is about the "Hydration Index" of the substrate, most are > 0.8, but they should be > 0.9 and after addition of surfactants it generally is. The hydration index is a measure of easy the media can absorb water. Another point is the rewettabality of media, it's important to stay above the low benchmark to insure the media will easily absorb water every time. For example, aged pine bark fines become hydrophobic at 35% moisture content (by wet weight), and at 50% aged pine bark fines offer the easiest rewettabality. All these factors are effects by a single application of surfactant, and the effect remains for weeks and months.

HTH

secondtry

I didn't take your posting as such but did find your information valid and a good read as a research deal.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Please use caution if gaining info on compost tea etc. from T&J Enterprises. I can't download it now because of being stuck with dial-up for a while but they had two video clips posted on their website; 1/ which is called fungi spores but is actually air bubbles
2/ they then claim the spores grow into fungal hyphae overnight but what they have is lines from a slide drying out. I emailed them to request they remove such bad info but it appears they ignored me. Like I said I can't look at it now but you can compare what they have to what real spores and fungal hyphae look like on my page. Also beware of adding things of any substance to a finished ACT and beware of people selling already made ACT, especially with stuff added to it.

 

[secondtry]

Hey,

No I wasn't trying to glean any usable info from them, just pointing out what is written on the label. That is why I say use as little as possible, none in ACT. I like your method of [sic] "breaking peat with hot water to make it absorb water easier" and I have tried using that with peat and it seemed to work well. I also tried it with aged pine bark fines and it didn't seem to make a difference. The only caveat I see with using the hot water method is to make sure the peat doesn't again become dry (say < 40% moisture content) to insure it is stays easy to rewet.

All the best

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Please use caution if gaining info on compost tea etc. from T&J Enterprises. I can't download it now because of being stuck with dial-up for a while but they had two video clips posted on their website; 1/ which is called fungi spores but is actually air bubbles
2/ they then claim the spores grow into fungal hyphae overnight but what they have is lines from a slide drying out. I emailed them to request they remove such bad info but it appears they ignored me. Like I said I can't look at it now but you can compare what they have to what real spores and fungal hyphae look like on my page. Also beware of adding things of any substance to a finished ACT and beware of people selling already made ACT, especially with stuff added to it.

Microbeman

Agreed!!!

As a matter of fact, I take little credence with online posting about AACT from other than a very few sources, i.e. your web site, CT Guy, 'some' of the postings on Jeff's Yahoo.com group as you well known sometimes explodes into 'who knows what' vs. 'what do I know' et al.

Good advice - Verify. Verify. Verify.

CC