8kw Grow - Would apreciate a bit of advice :)

[pico]

pico...search 'lung room', here and other sites.
The jist of it.....3 sealed rooms..2 grow rooms on flip/flop...the third room has all the environment control equipment and runs 24/7, you pipe that to both rooms and the lung room treats the air as needed.
Pretty nifty actually.

514...if you have a dialed in 2-3K system that works for you...going bigger is dead simple.
More cuttings, more environment control, more labour.

That was what I was thinking was a seperate lung room. But then I can also see problems with that. It would seem that a CO2 monitor would still be needed for each room. Then I would think you would need extra inline fans on timers to bring the CO2 from the lung room in to each seperate room. Plus you need extra materials to build this lung room and after all that it seems like you might as well just spend the few hundred bucks on another CO2 burner. That is IF you were doing a flip room, which I really don't think is a good idea in THIS particular grow.

 

[Guest]

How can you say I don't know anything? Is knowing the technical details for an 8kw grow common sense?

I think not...

I've grown 2-3kw grows for the past 5 years and want to upgrade...

my mistake, best of luck to you!

 

[pico]

I would very much like that, Pico. Please share!

I was thinking about your table with wheels idea. Lets say the four tables rest under 8 lights in a 16 x 18 room. If the plants veg for about two weeks and then they get switched right over to flowering, how many plants would each table hold? I don't want to go over 100 due to the federal risk.

Fill me in you seem VERY knowledgable.

Well if it was me I would be running 9 plants per light or so. That would put you at 72 plants and have another 27 available for mothers and breeding projects and the like. If you don't need all the extra plants around then do 12 plants per light and that would put you at 96. Then you can have 3 big mothers which you can deffinately get 96 clones off of if you know what you are doing.

So I would take my clones about 7-10 days before I was going to harvest so that when you harvest your clones are just rooted and are ready to go in the main room. This makes for a lot of work as you are harvesting and replanting all around the same time. Lots of late nights, but it is worth it. Veg time depends on the strain a little bit too, but with a good working hydro system and CO2 setup 2 weeks is plenty of veg time for 9-12 plants per light. They will explode when you throw them in to flowering and fill out all the space.


Now for the setup. Plenty of ways to skin a cat, I do it a different way almost every time but have a lot of things I keep the same.

If you have concrete floors with drains then you are stoked because you saved yourself a bit of money. If not you are going to want to get some pond liner, not a tarp, and waterproof your floor. I have a thread on it here so I won't type it all up again. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=67522

I would get the botanicare ebb/flow tables no matter what style of growing you decide to do. Don't skimp out and get the cheaper tables because they don't last as long. I use the 4x4 tables because they are a bit easier to move around and don't need as big of a reservoir to flood the table. The tables on wheels and lights all right next together is going to be the most efficient, but probably stationary tables is more realistic. In that case don't buy the janky ass metal table stands the hydro shop has. Those are expensive and just retarded. Get yourself some 18" building bricks ($1.50) or 5 gallon buckets and some 2x8 boards. this makes a quick, easy, and cheap table stand. I use buckets because Dairy Queen sells them for a dollar. Plus I use buckets for all kinds of shit, never too many buckets.










Ok so now you have your waterproof floor and tables set up. For ebb and flow get yourself some botanicare reservoirs to go under the tables. A 70 gallon res ($125)will fill up a 4x4 table($105) with a little to spare. I run two 4x4 tables off each 70 gallon res. A 100 gallon res will give you a bit longer time frame before you need to top up. Don't flood all your tables at once, flood 1 table per reservoir, then let drain back and then flood the other tables. There really isn't enough water in the res to fill up 2 tables at once.

For light reflectors I would only go with the Sun Systems Super Sun 2. I have a thread here http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51325 where i tested all kinds of reflectors and found them to reflect the most light back to the canopy. I can't remember the exact figures (check thread) but I think it was something like 40% more efficient than a batwing. 25% more efficient than the 8" cool sun XL.....look it up for exact numbers, lots of data in that thread.

Ballasts there are plenty of good options. The Sunleaves Pulsar units are a good price and the warranty is good. I think I pay around $215 for each 1000w switchable ballast.

For getting all that power to your room you might want to turn to a pro if you don't feel comfortable with electricity. If you want to tackle it yourself I can give you a rundown. Plan on spending at least a couple hundred on getting your power. Could be a lot more if you pay someone and depending on how far your main panel is from your room.

For atmospheric controls on a sealed room you need another handfull of hundreds. I would get a nice inline fan to cool your lights. Do 2 runs of 4 lights and make sure your hoods are fully sealed. Use aluminum duct tape to tape around the glass and insulated ducting so all the heat goes out of the room. Remember this is a sealed system so air is coming from outside the room, going through the hoods, and being sent right back outside. No air exchange inside the room. The Can Max 10" inline would be a good option for this and you can get a 10" to dual 6" adapter. Can MAx 10 can be had for around $350-400. Ok so your lights are aircooled and hopefully your ballasts are outside the room. You still need an air conditioner to control that heat. Depends on the ambient temperature and how well you are keeping heat out of your room, but just a guess I would say you want a 2 ton air conditioner (24,000 BTU). Bigger wouldn't hurt. I think you can get a 2 ton wall unit, but a mini split system would be nice. Expect to easily pay over a grand for a mini split and if you want a big nice split system you can spend 5-6 grand no problem. An in wall unit can be had for less than a grand for sure and they work fine. Don't get a portable unit as it will be exausting CO2 from your room. With all that water in your room you are going to need a dehumidifier. A regular unit purchased from home depot isn't going to work for this size room. You are going to need a nice unit like the Santa Fe 100 pint ($1150). This uses about the same ammount of electricity as the homeowner 50 pint units but works about 3 times as well. This isn't an option if you are running co2, you need to keep your humidity in check or else you are just wasting your time.

Now you have you have your atmospheric controls in check so lets talk about your co2 enrichment. I reccomend burners for a variety of reasons. I think I already talked about it, but it is going to cost less and is easier and less suspicious when filling. I keep my propane tanks outside of my growroom. There are a few options for burners and you really can't go wrong with any of them. Green Air makes decent units that are fairly inexpensive ($400+) but they are going out of business I hear. CAP, Sentinel, Blue OX.....are a few other options. If I was going to get another burner I would go with a unit that doesn't use a pilot light, but I have never had a problem with mine. To regulate the CO2 levels don't think you are going to be tricky and just use a timer, get the CO2 monitor controller. CAP makes the ppm-3 which lists for $500 but is available for $350 online. You can even find plans to make your own on IC somewhere, but the main part can be hard to find. If you were not doing a sealed room and didn't have the AC and dehumidifier you would need a seperate atmospheric controller that turns fans on/off when temperatures hit set points. Something like the Green Air CT-DH-3p. That will also turn your CO2 off at night, but you can get a simple timer to do that. Anyways since the AC has its own temperature setpoint and the dehumidifier does as well we don't need a seperate control box for this. Don't forget all the wall mount fans to keep CO2 circulating and plants moving around.

Ok, whew, where are we at...we got tables, reservoirs, lights, power, co2, envoirnmental controls......now we need plants. With ebb and flow I would either go with hydroton rocks in plastic pots (small holes so no rocks fall out bottom), or coco/perlite in coco pots. I have done both with success. Coco perlite will go a bit longer between waterings. If you can't find a good coco source, go with the hydroton rocks.

I use scrog screens for everything. I make them out of PVC pipe and screw on legs. Check thread here http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=50823 With the scrog screens it makes it so you have a nice even canopy and you don't have to staple screens to all your walls. Tables can still be pulled out and everything is modular. I have no doubt that these screens increase yield by keeping everything level and things won't fall over either.

Nutrients depend on the medium you go with. If you do the hydroton rocks I would pick up some 6 gallon jugs of GH flora series and do the Lucas Formula. 8ml Micro and 16ml Bloom per gallon. No GH grow needed. I never even adjust my pH with this formula (or check it for that matter). If you want to go with the coco pots and a coco mix then I can highly reccomend the House and Garden line of nutrients. For recirculating sytems (even with coco) use the Aqua Flakes. Aqua Flakes is more pH stable over time than the Coco formula. I am running coco pots with the aqua flakes in ebb flow right now and the plants love it. Again I don't ever check/adjust my pH with this stuff and I run exact nutrient schedule reccomended on the house and garden. H&G is a lot more expensive than the Lucas formula. Like LOTS more money.

There are still a million little things I have left out that cost money. Here is a more itemized list of just things I can think of off the top of my head.

8 x 1000w ballasts @ $220 each
8 x Super Sun 2 reflectors @ $180 each
8 x 4x4 hydro tables at $100 each
8 x water pumps @ $25 each
8 x ebb flow fittings/hoses @ $10 each
8 x sunlift light hangers @ $20 each
8 x hortilux bulbs @ $80-$120 each
+/- 100 coco pots @ $2.00 each
Hydroton or coco will cost you a few hundred bucks or more
CO2 monitor $350
AC unit $500-$5000
Dehumidifier $1200
Black/White Poly $100
Pond Liner $250
Can Max 10" inline fan $350-400
Insulated duct $100-150
Electrical Panel $300-1000
Truncheon EC meter $150
Circulating walls fans at $40 each
Nutrients $500-$5000
Carbon Filter and fan $500
PVC scrog screens $200


There are a million little things that you will need and you will find yourself going to the home improvement store on a regular basis. You will want to frame out a room and insulate it. You will need to punch holes in your house for ducting. You will need to buy lots of tools and fittings and all kinds of random shit. But hopefully this gives you a basic idea of where to start. Costs are estimates. I am not even going to re-read this and edit so if anything is unclear just ask. I have more pictures that make things easy to understand.








These photos are just some soil handwatered stuff, but it gives you an idea of what the scrog screens do.

 

[Guest]

Hey Pico,

Thats a truely amazing room!

Your scrog is rocking!

 

[Guest]

hey
pico i was suggesting 2 4k rooms because he wont have the heat problems an 8kw setup would cause except in summer.
he would not need 2 times the equipment and he would only need half the ballasts.
Also if he Gets PM or some other pathogen he still has a shot at 1/2 his harvest IMO.
As for the c02 i was talking about tanks not burners buying propane tanks around here in winter is very suspicious(it gets way too cold to barbecue).
awesome grow btw
peace

 

[J-Roc]

yeah pico is truley the man to listen to on this website.

 

[_Dude]

But wouldn't it be better to buy the proper equipment in one swoop instead of paying out for shitty equipment and then GOOD equipment?

Depends on your budget and commitment. For someone with small budget or uncertain commitment, starting cheaper makes more sense. Plus there's the learning curve - if you spend less while experimenting, changing your methods won't hurt as much.

 

[pico]

hey
pico i was suggesting 2 4k rooms because he wont have the heat problems an 8kw setup would cause except in summer.
he would not need 2 times the equipment and he would only need half the ballasts.
Also if he Gets PM or some other pathogen he still has a shot at 1/2 his harvest IMO.
As for the c02 i was talking about tanks not burners buying propane tanks around here in winter is very suspicious(it gets way too cold to barbecue).
awesome grow btw
peace

I guess I just look at it a different way. You are still dealing with the same ammount of heat, just spread out a bit more. But you will still have to get an air conditioner, dehumidifier, inline fans (aircooled lighting), co2 monitors....you have to build 2 rooms instead of one. You have to buy a bunch more electrical equipment to control the flip...the only thing you need less of is ballasts. I guess if you did this lung room you are talking about you could use 1 air conditioner, dehumidifier, and co2 monitor, but then throw out your idea of not getting PM in both rooms. Plus you will need more inline fans to take the air from the lung room in to the other rooms. You will be cooling more space, putting co2 in more space, trying to dehumidify more space.....it just doesn't sound like the most efficient way of doing things.

I do like the idea of split rooms. If I get the Isuzu 20k generator that I want, i would run 15k or so on a flip (5k for ac/pumps.....) I would not use a lung room though, I would just get double of all the things I mentioned. Seal off the rooms and keep them totally seperate. Even then, if you get PM, you get PM. But as long as you have your humidity in check PM is a non issue.

Propane more suspicious than 5 foot tall CO2 tank? What are you using CO2 tanks for in the summer or winter that could be legit? are you welding in your bedroom? for an 8k grow you will need a huge co2 tank filled every week or two. The same size propane tank will last WAY longer. Plus propane is used for all kinds of stuff. Propane central heat, propane stove, propane hot water heater, propane dryer, propane fridge, fried shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup....wait, sorry I turned in to forrest gump. Anyways, a lot of houses these days already have a big propane tank outside that gets filled every few months by the propane company. You can tap in to that and never have to bring a tank in your house. Or sometimes natural gas is piped in by the electric company. You can tap your generator in to that too. If you need to bring tanks in your house, just put a 20 pound tank in a garbage can, it will probably last a month.

Just my opinion, it will all grow weed in the end Maybe we should forget all this indoor nonsense and go outside. No tanks or gas here



happy growing

 

[Guest]

hey
pico you are probably right.
i'm pretty sure 514 is from my area around here you dont really need an ac or a dehumidifer in winter(o% humidity and -20 to-40c) for 2000w or less but i guess when you get into the bigger setup shit changes.
peace

 

[sikk_widit]

ok 514...I'll bite


Run the lights at 220 or whatever...not 110.
.

Probably a dumb question but what is the purpose of 220 vs 110?

 

[pico]

with 240 you are able to run more lights on a given wire. A ballast running on 240 uses half the amps as the same ballast running on 120. So just for the sake of argument lets say a 1000w ballast uses 10 amps (actually uses less) at 120, then it will use 5 amps at 240. So on a 20 amp line you could run 2000w on 120 or 4000w on 240. So you save money on wiring. It should be noted that you shouldn't be running 20 amps on a 20 amp breaker. You should run about 80% capacity so around 16 amps on a 20 amp breaker. But I think you get the idea.

Don't believe anyone that tells you that you will save money by switching to 240. It is possible that the ballast might be a tiny percent more efficient, but the savings wouldn't be noticeable.

Anyone running over a couple lights should probably be running 240.

 

[514-Represent]

hey
pico you are probably right.
i'm pretty sure 514 is from my area around here you dont really need an ac or a dehumidifer in winter(o% humidity and -20 to-40c) for 2000w or less but i guess when you get into the bigger setup shit changes.
peace

AC in winter... HEHEHEHE... MTLgrower knows what it's like...

Pico thank you SOOO much for your post... I'm gonna dissect it and post more tomorrow.

Thank you all!!!

 

[pico]

I remember the good old days when instead of looking at AC units, I was looking at buying more lights to heat things up. Never had a problem with powdery mildew or bugs of any sort because they couldn't live there.........ahh those were the days. Now I blast my AC winter and summer, not an option where I live now.

 

[anonymiss12345]

hey
pico you are probably right.
i'm pretty sure 514 is from my area around here you dont really need an ac or a dehumidifer in winter(o% humidity and -20 to-40c) for 2000w or less but i guess when you get into the bigger setup shit changes.
peace

Indeed...'shit' does change when going over 2K worth of plant material
A dehuey is needed for 'lights off' as the plants transpiration will spike the RH into the 80-90's in no time. And you can't use the intake/exhaust to deal with it because it is too cold outside
If the room is 100% sealed 24/7...then a dehuey is needed 24/7, unless the AC is keeping the RH down for 12hrs...but there's still the other 12 hrs right?

Keeping RH below 70% is nice for the plants...but another reason, maybe even a more important one...is because at 70%RH, the carbon in your filter starts to have a preference to absorb moisture than it does odor. This kills your filter a LOT quicker.

 

[anonymiss12345]

Probably a dumb question but what is the purpose of 220 vs 110?

pico covered that very well for ya. He is correct.
It's just a capacity/power supply issue.
It makes no difference on your monthly power bill...because watts are watts...and you get billed for watts, not amps

 

[anonymiss12345]

pico...probably the most detailed info on the setup and use of lung rooms was on the recently deceased AN site. But anyways....

Think of it this way. CO2 enrichment equipment isn't cheap...neither is mechanical AC PLUS the power needed to run that AC. (that extra power might be needed)
So lets imagine a 4K per side flip/flop. You would need 2 CO2 monitors plus burners...2 AC units that can handle 4K plus the burner. Plus carbon filters for each room.
With a 'lung' room...you need a few feet of ducting, 4 blowers and electric controlled dampers. BUT...you only need 1 CO2 monitor, 1 burner, 1 AC capable of 4K plus a burner and half the amount of carbon.
For an 8K show...ya, I'd go one room if the space is there. And I believe that in the real world...'most' flip/flops are for 8K per side or bigger...and this is where the AC savings become very important. It isn't only the cost per unit...but the power usage per unit.

 

[pico]

Yeah I guess I just don't see the point at all. You really are not saving much money after buying those 4 blowers and dampers. Any decent inline fan is going to cost you at least $200. So that is 800 bucks right there and for that much I can easily buy a CO2 monitor and another burner. So you need an extra air conditioner but even then those are not very expensive for a 4k room, like a couple hundred bucks for a wall unit and If you are building any decent sealed lung room and sealing up those other 2 rooms you will pay more for that in extra building materials needed. I wouldn't even think of doing a flip unless 10 per side, and even then I would buy the extra co2 equipment. I can see where you are coming from, but even then, doesn't seem worth the trouble. You won't be saving any money on air conditioning, you are still producing the same ammount of heat...you might have to use an air conditioner that is half the size, but you are running it twice as much.....Then with the dehumidifier I doubt you can get away with just 1 in the lung room. First off like you mentioned above you need dehumidifiers at night, and where I am at you deffinatly need them during the day as well. Any decent sized sealed room will need them during the day. So that is 1 more thing you are not saving any money on. All in all I bet that a flip for this room with a lung room will cost you the same if not more money and will be much more of a hastle.

Thanks for expaining that, I just have my own way of doing things I guess. We both agree that a flip for this room is not a good idea in the first place though.

Not sure if you saw, but I gave a basic rundown of how I might set up a room on the last page.


Good discussion

 

[Guest]

While this has been a good discussion I pause and ask "why would anyone balk at spending the coins" for a proper set up of 8,000 watts.

8K will produce one helluva lot of bud worth one helluva lot of coins and provide a return large enough to pay for all if not most all of the initial investment if you truly know how to grow.

Earlier this year I adopted a number of PICOS techniques including dumping my 3 1000W air cooled hoods for 6 SuperSun II's with 600 watt bulbs and went to scrog applying Picos ferts regimen. The result was a substantially greater return. I kept the 3 1000K ballasts for use in the SuperSun II's as needed.

Pay attention to those who walk the walk.

514, its time to walk the walk, it has been clearly explained to you by a person that knows his s**t and it shows with his grows.



happy growing 514 and peace.

 

[Guest]

My window AC blasts day and night all year long too.Pico I just noticed some foxtails on my blessed blockhead,not too groovy.You probably do perpetual like me but have you ever kicked down the daylight temps the last 10 days or so since the added co2 really isn't being utilized in late bloom to avoid foxtails from excess heat in flower?

 

[pico]

I don't usually kick down my CO2 because like you were thinking I have plants in different stages of growth. If I had everything all the same I might do that. I deffinately try to do that with my blue skunk if it is the only thing going. That strain really likes lower temperatures towards the end of flower and will reward you with amazing colors.

That being said, sometimes strains just like to foxtail. I have this white widdow strain that foxtailes like crazy and I don't even worry about it anymore. Temps could be a factor, but it just seems to do that anyways. It will throw up a foxtail, and then fill it in, then throw up more foxtails...fill them in.....kinda crazy, but in the end the bud smokes fine. I don't have any other strains that do this no matter how hot my room gets.

If you think that you are getting the foxtails because of heat, maybe raise up your lights a bit. It won't change your room temps, but it will lower the temperature on the top of your canopy just a touch. Some fans for air circulation will help too if you don't already have that, but I am sure you do.