8kw Grow - Would apreciate a bit of advice :)

[514-Represent]

Drama aside... heheheheh

The room is about 16 x 17... about the size of a two car garage....

And it isn't a rental...

Keep the advice coming boys!

 

[Guest]

I'd at least use a green air CD-36 and cap PPM-3 controller for that setup.That is your least expensive effective enrichment option.

 

[pico]

Hello ICers... I've been reading this site for awhile now and have learnt a lot about the art of growing from you all. A big kudos to this forum and to the contributors.

I have a few questions that I'm hoping you could help me with....

1) Grow mediums? I'm looking into an Ebb & Flo system and was wondering what sort of yield to expect. I've grown in soil up to this point but I think a 8kw SOIL garden would drain my ailing body too much.

2) How many plants per light would be recommended? Maximum yield is the priority.

3) How many BTUs would you recommend with a room this size?

4) C02... on an operation this big... is it worth the added investment?

6) Is it better to do a "flip box" and split the room into two? If so, how would the light be positioned over the plants?

7) Furthermore, if I were to go with one LARGE 8kw room, how would the lights be positioned in order to obtain maximum efficiency?

8) What is the most efficient style of growing in order to obtain a maximum yield? Tree style? Medium size plants? Sea of green?

I thank you in advance and hope you guys can answer a few of my questions. Keep up the good work!

Good to see you are serious.

1. I think you are right going with an ebb and flow system. Ebb and flow is easy to setup and maintain and hard to screw up. I have done ebb and flow with hydroton rock, rockwool and coco/perlite. Hydroton rocks are nice because they don't get nutrient buildup very easily. Rockwool I am not a huge fan of, it doesn't start out with a good pH and nutrient buildup occurs easily. Coco/Perlite has been working very well for me. I would say the plant growth is as good as the hydroton rocks and you don't need to flood the table as many times per day. Plus if your pumps go out you have a little bit more time to get a replacement because coco/perlite holds more water than hydroton. If you do an ebb and flow with coco deffinately use the coco pots so you don't get loose coco jamming up your pump.

2. If maximum yield (over time) is the priority, then SOG is probably the most efficient. However it is more work and you will do just as well with less plants and a couple extra weeks for veg time. I usually do 9 or 16 plants per light.

3. BTUs we probably need a bit more info. Kinda depends on if you are going to aircool your hoods, and what kind of temperatures you are looking at outside in your area. I have a sealed room with 8 lights (4 x 1000 and 4 x 600) running CO2 burner and a big dehumidifier with aircooled lights. My AC is a 12,000 BTU unit and it gets the job done just fine. My room is also underground so that keeps it a bit cooler. Like someone else mentioned you don't want to get the portable units, you need either a window unit or a split unit. If things are really hot and you have money to burn the Excel Air split units are nice.

4. CO2 is deffinately worth the investment on something this size. It is the small grows where I try to tell people not to use it. With 1 or 2 lights it is better to buy another light than to add all the equlipment needed for CO2. If you are going to do a sealed room you are going to want Aircooled lighting, air conditioner, dehumidifier, CO2 monitor/controller, CO2 burner or tanks. I like the burners because you can get propane cheap anywhere and it isn't suspicious. CO2 tanks will cost you more money, are much heavier, and must be filled/exchanged at specialty stores (hydro/welding). Then you are going to want a sealed room as well which can cost a bit of money. I use hard foam aluminum backed insulation at $20 per 4x8 sheet. After all my walls are framed up and sheetrocked/plywood then I put in the hard foam and use spray foam to fill in all the cracks. I should mention again that humidity can get bad in a sealed room especially when you are flooding 128 sq feet of tables with water all the time. I used to run 2-3 homeowner dehumidifiers in my sealed room. Now I bought the Santa Fe 100 pint dehumidifier ($1200) and it keeps my room in check by itself. CO2 is not really doing much for you if you can't keep your temp/humidity in check. Also with a properly running sealed room things happen fast, sometimes too fast.

6. (what happened to 5?) Well I don't think you want to tackle a flip flop at this point. That means 2 rooms, 2 air conditioners, 2 dehumidifers, 2 full CO2 setups......it really will add a ton to the cost of your operation. Stick with the 1 room at this point. Then in 6 months you can flip your 8 ballasts and have two 8k rooms

7. The lights are always going to do best when they are next to each other. What I mean is that if you have 4 lights and have 1 light in each corner of the room (just an example), the extra light spilling off the sides of the table is not going to use. If you have 4 lights right next to each other you are still getting light spilling off on the sides, but not nearly as much as when all the lights are apart. So the most efficient way would be to have all your tables on wheels and have them all slammed right up next to each other. They are on wheels so you can slide them out to get in there and work on the plants. Right now I have walkways in between rows of lights and if I had plants in those walkways I could get an extra pound or two. Next time I grow I will be doing the tables on wheels idea.

8. I think I touched on this somewhere above. I think I would stay away from SOG and go with 9 or 16 plants per light. It will make your life a bit easier. With the CO2 cranking those bitches will veg out with the quickness and will explode when you throw them in to flower.

What nutrients are you going to use? I think I noticed you were using Pure blend Pro in another thread. If it was me I would probably stear clear of that stuff. I know I will get flamed for saying that, but there are other nutrients that are cheaper, more pH stable, and easier to use.

As far as some of the specific products you should use, I have some good ideas. There are some things you can go cheap on, and others you want to pay the price to get the good stuff the first time. For instance on the CO2 monitor, get the CAP ppm-3. It is the cheapest unit I think at around $350 but it does the same thing as the others and works great. I use these in all my rooms. For the light reflectors, I did some testing and from the numbers it looks like the Super Sun 2 reflector from sun systems is the best at reflecting light. They are a bit more money than say the arctic sun or something along those lines, but you will get more product in the end with the super sun 2s and they will pay for themselves first grow.

 

[pico]

Unless one engages in a revolutionary new concept in getting the bills paid...it's this thing called a job...

Unfortunatly most people live paycheck to paycheck without the added expenses of a large grow. I don't know 514s financial situation and neither do you. I do know that a large ammount of money is need to keep things going. I am not trying to be an asshole, I just am not about to sugar coat stuff to someone wanting to break in to the business.

As far as the tarp and the sump pump, the tarp will still let water in to your floors most likely. Replace the tarp with some pond liner and now you are in business. I did the tarp thing 6 years ago with a grow, I ended up replacing all the carpet in that place. I have a thread on setting up pond liners on here somewhere.

 

[yamaha_1fan]

heres one thing I learned on my quest to build the big grow. It takes alot more money than I thought. I figured lights would be the biggest expense. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Pond liners, 2x4's , A/C, exhaust fans, electrical wire, sub panel, breakers, digital timers, plus alot more odds and ends. It just never ends

I will be running 9K probably, with 3 4x11 ebb and flow tables. I decided ebb and flow due to ease to build. I just didnt want to have a ton of buckets with tons of plumbing (potential leaks).I have run aero before but it was troublesome. I will be using 6" pots next to each other for 96 per table. But the clones are going straight from the bubbler to the flower room with no veg time except for what they get in the bubbler. SO they shouldnt be that big. I am using hydroton with coco mats.


good luck

 

[anonymiss12345]

ok 514...I'll bite

Here's a quick run down on a stupidly simple way to run 8 lights. And I do suggest that anyone keep it really simple for a crop or 2 and get some cash flowing before you change things around and modify to suit a personal taste or even 'experiment' in any way.
Unless you have a very good handle on what you do with 2 lights now...well then you just multiply that by 4 and all you need to really do is maintain environmental control.

8 1K HPS light kits
8 shades (just $20 batwings for now. You can upgrade later to whatever you want...or do it the way you want now if the budget allows)
Run the lights at 220 or whatever...not 110.
Get a power panel with a timer for the lights.
Get a generic industrial grade thermostat and wire it to a dual receptacle plug in box.
2 Can100 sized carbon filters connected to a 'Y' and into a 1400cfm-ish exhaust fan...8-10" ducting.
A smaller intake fan.
A 3-4 fan chiller...they use cold water flow, not a compressor like an actual AC unit...the only power use is to turn the fans.
At least 4 oscillating fans.
6mm clear poly and bl/wh poly
160-200 1gal pots
3 bales of SS #4
We'll assume you can purchase outright 160-200 clones.
A 1200+ gph pump
A shit load of 1/2 poly hose
As much feeder hose.
160-200 stakes for the feeder hose
tables to catch run off from the pots or else 'track' (2x6"...it's used on the top and bottoms of walls built using sheetmetal instead of wood) on sawhorses ...tilt them to catch the runoff into another track and into a bin...sump pump for emptying.
Take those 3-4" tall rooted cuts and veg them under the full 8K's of bloom wattage for 14ish days then flower them out.

Some might say that 'beds' of soil are even cheaper/easier...you can just make a big square with 2x6 and line it, dump the bales in and voila....fine, but I'll tell you right now...it is WAY easier to over saturate a bed than it is a 1gal pot. Be aware.

So this is about as simple, cheap and idiot proof as it gets.
1lb a light is a no brainer....1.5 is very achievable...2lbs with some skills and a good strain.
Without CO2 I might add. Co2 is for when everything is dialed in. If you lack in any one factor of a good room environment or a growing skill...adding CO2 won't do shit. CO2 is for above and beyond. But if you get EVERYTHING dialed in...over 2 lbs a light in a flat garden with CO2 in as little as 10wks total per cycle.
But count on 1lb a light...that is what should matter first. Consider anything over that gravy.
Pull that room off a couple times...THEN start messin' with hydro or whatever else you want.

 

[514-Represent]

But wouldn't it be better to buy the proper equipment in one swoop instead of paying out for shitty equipment and then GOOD equipment?

 

[anonymiss12345]

But wouldn't it be better to buy the proper equipment in one swoop instead of paying out for shitty equipment and then GOOD equipment?

The only upgradeable component I listed is the shades really. So ya, if you have the money...the better ones are the way to go.
Everything else isn't really 'better' per say...just different. You can 'save' $200 on the pots/lines/stakes and get into hydro right off the bat...but the reality is that a large hydro room is a lot of work and a lot of skilled management to pull off reliably. BTW...I think you mentioned that you weren't sure your body could handle a 'soil' grow...well how do you plan to rinse/clean at least 8 50lb bags of grow rocks? The only way you could use less rock is if you go bubbler or aero. Set aside another $2500 plus the power to run a water chiller if you do that.
Oh...I suppose the other 'upgrade' from the start you could do if you do plan to run a sealed room...is to not buy the $1500 air cooler and get the $4-5000 AC unit, again, you'll need power for that too.

I forgot to mention a dehuey...it's a must have.

 

[anonymiss12345]

btw...a 'tree' type setup is the least amount of work overall. Search "freedom buckets" or "Krusty" to get the scoop on that.
The main deal with that is that you need at least 4wks of veg under the full bloom wattage, which wastes time annually. (fewer crops)
You would be using 6 plants and 6800W if you ran 2 1K's and 6 600's
You could run 5gal ebb/flow buckets

 

[Guest]

check out norther farmers grows..

use some cheap-o off the shelf walmart brand soil mix. get yourself peters brand powder food..veg and bloom... get those grow bags, 5gal. (keep it simple)

focus on safe wiring, and top notch odor control. (priorities)

quite honestly, you don't know anything - i wouldn't throw my ass on the line like that knowing I don't know shit. (common sense)

why not 2K this one, 4K next one, and then decide how much bigger to go? (advice to disregard)

stay safe,

 

[514-Represent]

quite honestly, you don't know anything - i wouldn't throw my ass on the line like that knowing I don't know shit. (common sense)

How can you say I don't know anything? Is knowing the technical details for an 8kw grow common sense?

I think not...

I've grown 2-3kw grows for the past 5 years and want to upgrade...

 

[Guest]

hey,
with the space you have it would probably be easier to run 4k on a flip flop,
it will create less heat and you could run 2 sealed rooms rooms on 1 co2 unit.
peace

 

[Blunted22]

From what I keep reading, lots of small plants is the way to go, but you'll be ****ed at sentencing.

thats why im shyin away from sog man been doing it for years you go 2 24 bucket setup dwc or bio buckets youll get pretty close to the same yeilds as sog with only 48 plants.

If your laws are like mine i can get a decent sentence being first time caught growing with no other criminal charges as long as i have under 100 plants so at 99 plants im still ok.

With that being said you can double that 48 setup and still be under the 100 plant rule.

My one 4x8 table can hold 120 plants that a auto 5 years for me...

 

[pico]

How can you say I don't know anything? Is knowing the technical details for an 8kw grow common sense?

I think not...

I've grown 2-3kw grows for the past 5 years and want to upgrade...

By the questions you ask it pretty much doesn't sound like you have been growing 3k for 5 years. Plus in your other posts you talk about a 600w light and 6 plants and having problems. You have a thread asking how to not kill clones when you transplant them.....No pictures of a 3k grow that I see.

These are not technical questions you are asking really, they are fairly basic. Basic enough that there are threads dedicated to each and every one of those questions probably.

If you have never done hydro I would give it a shot with the 3 lights you say you have and go from there.

I hope you don't think I am being an asshole. My only intentions here are to help and keep you from getting in too deep. I rarely answer posts like this because they never pan out and they are usually a waste of my time. Plus you have not even acknowledged any of my advice.

mtlgrower- I really don't see how a flip would be easier. You have to buy twice as much stuff for most parts of the grow. How do you have a CO2 burner do 2 rooms anyways? That part I am curious about.

 

[514-Represent]

I'm not in the US.

Thankfully...

So you're saying 2 rooms of 24 buckets per room will yield me the same as a SOG?

And Pico... trust me buddy I really am taking your advice in. They might seem like basic questions but I have done my research on this forum... I've spent hours upon hours dissecting this forum... I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything on a grow this large.

Know what I mean?

I wanted some proper advice on my custom grow. There aren't *THAT* many 8kw grow threads...

 

[pico]

Alright bro, well feel free to ask all the detailed questions you want. I hope you decide to show us your progress along the way. A detailed log of the problems you encounter and how you overcome them helps a lot of people.

The buckets may yield the same as SOG, but not over time. SOG requires little to no veg time where the buckets you might veg for a month. So you are talking 4 harvests a year compared to 6. I like a happy medium of going medium sized plants and vegging for 2 weeks or so.

Don't forget to plan your mother/veg/clone room. That is one thing I wish I would have done better in my current location. I spent too much money/time on my flower room and kinda half assed my veg room.

I like the idea of the flip, but I really think it is better with a larger grow than 8k. I mean your costs are going to skyrocket with that setup. You will need to build 2 flowering rooms and have enviornmental control stuff for both. The only thing you need less of is the ballasts and even then you are not going to be saving any money really because all that money is going to go to the cost of the flip box. Plus you won't be able to go do all your 'chores' at once. You will have to wait for the other room to turn on. If it is hot where you are at, one of your rooms will need more aircooling than the other. I like to run everything at night so ambient temps are lower and my aircooled lighting works better.

If you want me to show you the equipment I would buy for an ebb flow setup and the costs let me know and I will give you a run down.

 

[pico]

I wanted some proper advice on my custom grow. There aren't *THAT* many 8kw grow threads...

We just don't post the whole grow or at least I don't.

 

[anonymiss12345]

pico...search 'lung room', here and other sites.
The jist of it.....3 sealed rooms..2 grow rooms on flip/flop...the third room has all the environment control equipment and runs 24/7, you pipe that to both rooms and the lung room treats the air as needed.
Pretty nifty actually.

514...if you have a dialed in 2-3K system that works for you...going bigger is dead simple.
More cuttings, more environment control, more labour.

 

[anonymiss12345]

So you're saying 2 rooms of 24 buckets per room will yield me the same as a SOG?

Basically...yes. At the end of any given grow cycle...yield per light is the same almost regardless of plant count.
Plant count affects the veg time involved..not the one crop yield so much.

 

[514-Represent]

If you want me to show you the equipment I would buy for an ebb flow setup and the costs let me know and I will give you a run down.

I would very much like that, Pico. Please share!

I was thinking about your table with wheels idea. Lets say the four tables rest under 8 lights in a 16 x 18 room. If the plants veg for about two weeks and then they get switched right over to flowering, how many plants would each table hold? I don't want to go over 100 due to the federal risk.

Fill me in you seem VERY knowledgable.