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205w LED vs 400w HID Let the battle begin!
- Thread starter blazeoneup
- Start date
The plants got the chop last night, Should have the final weight by this sunday! Until next time be safe and take care!
Strapped
Member
BlazeOneUp, I'm curious...You refer to the HID side only as such (Not HPS or MH). The light projected from the HID appears to be MH (white glow opposed to the reddish/orange of HPS).
to you for your Dedication and Discipline to Properly and Effectively see this experiment through
Excellent work, K+for your non-biased, devoted efforts for the greater good of the community!!
Keep IT Up Blaze!!
-Capt Dutch
You got me curious as well Empire. It could be a CMH, or good use of photoshop to get better pictures. What's the verdict Blaze?
The HID has a 400w mh bulb in it!
Strapped
Member
whoops you are right bro :/ I could have at least put "metal halide" in the search this thread option. I'm an asshole. I humbly apologize blaze and am anxiously awaiting the results.
weight?
cosmic_flower
New member
The waiting is the hardest part...
The waiting is the hardest part...
Great show, Blaze! Thanks for sharing this with us. I am interested to know if there is any noticeable difference in the finished product. Hopefully you have a vaporizer to "prove" them with. For example, you could load .5 grams in the vapo and see how many pulls you get out of each sample. I find that the vaporizer is the best determinant of quality herb. Many times I have encountered nice looking, good smelling herb that gave off little vapor.
Looking forward to the final tallies. Cheers!
The waiting is the hardest part...
Great show, Blaze! Thanks for sharing this with us. I am interested to know if there is any noticeable difference in the finished product. Hopefully you have a vaporizer to "prove" them with. For example, you could load .5 grams in the vapo and see how many pulls you get out of each sample. I find that the vaporizer is the best determinant of quality herb. Many times I have encountered nice looking, good smelling herb that gave off little vapor.
Looking forward to the final tallies. Cheers!
balla420
Member
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Just got done skimming through this thread.... nice comparison Blaze.. I'd only suggest using HPS or at least a lower color temp MH bulb, just my $.02 think it might help with the yield a bit.
I Think I'll stick with HID lighting for now, not the LED is no good, but as others have mentioned, as of now LED's are still too much money. Even when factoring in monthly energy bill's it would still take you a few years to make up the difference and at that point it is likely that LED's will have come down a bunch in price. Still I think LED's still have there place. I think they would be a better choice for micro grows. And If I had the money I'd love to add some LED panels hung vertically on all 4 sides. That in comparison with HID would give you one helluva yeild.
My personal opinion (from what I know so far) is that the ultimate light for the future of growing (of technologies that exist now) is going to be the Sulphur plasma. Sure they're not as energy efficient as LED's but still more so than HID's commonly used now. But they will have a better spectrum and more penetration than either HID's, or LED's
One last thing.. For my next light, I was thinking of trying out the sunpulse lamps with a High frequency electronic ballast. Interesting thing is for HF electronic ballast they ONLY make MH lamps, but they are PULSE START MH lamps (as opposed to the typical probe-start MH bulb) These bulbs in conjuntion with the HF electronic ballasts are more energy efficient, and there is no "bulb fade" meaning the light will shine just as bright till the day it dies as it does the first time you turn it on. Also, most people are used to MH bulbs being "blue light". Thats because most MH bulbs you see for sale are around the 6.5k - 10k range (color temp). sunpulse PSMH bulbs are available from 3k - 20k so even though it is an MH bulb it (3k lamp) will still be a "red" color like HPS though not quite as red as HPS bulbs....which operate @ 2.2k
Anyways... can't wait to see the final dry weights.
subscribed
...anyone done a CMH comparison?
Nice suggestion..a 400W LED vs a 400W CMH.
CMH would win, in my estimation.
S
Sir_Nugget
wow man, way to hold it down in brown town.. now if that LED girl could find a way to bring the cost of the unit down.. I am afraid that over a thousand dollars for a LAMP is just out of the F*WORD question... I dont really care what she thinks, the damned UNIT is just UNAFFORDABLE to most people...
There is a glory-hole of a rule in economics - that rule says, the cheaper it is, the more people will buy; up until a certain point, as a business, it's up to her to find the sweetspot of her price.
For instance, at her current prices, she can only sell 60 units per month.. if she drops the price by 25%, she will increase sales by 30 units per month, making it a profitable move to decrease prices... If she drops prices by 10% more she will sell even more LED's,
The fact is, these LED's seem to be kicking ass but who the heck wants to drop a thousand dollars for the equivalent of a 600 watter...
to put this into perspective, I set up my entire 400w vert grow for less than 250$, tent, ffof and all..
The issue to me is the price is just too high, and ur probably missing out on a lot of sales because of that.. I wish I could afford one, and i bet a lot of other people do too =( As far as paying for itself, that it may do, but an HID is still the economical way
There is a glory-hole of a rule in economics - that rule says, the cheaper it is, the more people will buy; up until a certain point, as a business, it's up to her to find the sweetspot of her price.
For instance, at her current prices, she can only sell 60 units per month.. if she drops the price by 25%, she will increase sales by 30 units per month, making it a profitable move to decrease prices... If she drops prices by 10% more she will sell even more LED's,
The fact is, these LED's seem to be kicking ass but who the heck wants to drop a thousand dollars for the equivalent of a 600 watter...
to put this into perspective, I set up my entire 400w vert grow for less than 250$, tent, ffof and all..
The issue to me is the price is just too high, and ur probably missing out on a lot of sales because of that.. I wish I could afford one, and i bet a lot of other people do too =( As far as paying for itself, that it may do, but an HID is still the economical way
There was a time when GPS cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Talking about it the wrong place could get you executed. Now, any kid with $100 can get one, they're practically toys for pocket change.
When LEDs were new to growing, they were largely useless junk. This is no longer true. Prices are dropping. Give it time.
When LEDs were new to growing, they were largely useless junk. This is no longer true. Prices are dropping. Give it time.
People overlook the fact that early adopters always pay more, and it's because of them that the prices come down to a level more suitable for the masses.
Not to mention our prices are already a lot cheaper than any of our major competitors, meaning we've already done our best to "bring prices down", and our sales volume of 345W lights shows it. To whoever was thinking we only sell 60 units per month, umm, no lol. We just signed on with roughly 20-25 hydro stores at the SF Gardening Expo this past weekend, and it will be more like 40-60 units per store per month but good try. Plenty of people can afford these lights and do purchase them, although some bitch and moan at the initial cost, as they rarely consider the fact that LED actually saves you money within the 1st year of using them compared to a comparable HID lighting system. But if all you're after is cheap and 50 year old technology, then by all means keep using your HID's. Nobody's making you switch, there's simply a better option out there that uses far less power, creates far less heat, and doesn't require those bulb changes yearly. It has a slightly higher initial investment, but not when you consider A/C, Ventilation fans, and separate veg and bloom lighting for HID gardens. When you build it that way you're paying way more money vs LED.
Cost Comparison:
Stealth Grow "602" (288 x 2W LED's, draws 327W) = $1599
LumiGrow "330W ES" (58 x 5W LED's = 290W) = $1499
HIDHut SuperNova (270 x 1W LED's) = $1399
SunShine Systems "300W" (288 x 1W LED's) = $1299
Hydro-Grow 345W (345 x 1W LED's) = $1150 shipped
So at minimum our light includes 57 more diodes compared to any of our competitors, and we come in at minimum $150 less than the next cheapest light. We also offer a 3 year warranty which is better than Stealth Grow, HIDHut, or Sunshine Systems. Our spectral output is also more complex than any of theirs. So when you compare LED to LED, there really is no comparison, and like I said, we already worked hard to bring the costs down for our customers. Our cost on LED's needs to go down before we can afford to bring prices any lower, and that won't happen until thousands more people start switching to LED on a daily basis. It's just like computers, until everyone buys one the cost is going to remain high.
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balla420
Member
I'm not seeing your logic on how a comparable LED light could save you money within the first year???
Here's a scenario being EXTRA GENEROUS to LED's cause that still shows HID being cheaper for at least a few years, even when factoring in Electricity bills. 400w HID vs. your 205w Penetrator LED lamp (which it says right on your website is equal to or better than a 400w HID) and for a 4 month grow (1 month veg/3 months flower)
HID
Equipment Cost:
400w HID lamp (complete kit: digital ballast, reflector, socket set, bulb) $275 (call it $350)
Booster fan's = $20/fan @ Home Depot (probably less online) x3 = $60
Energy Cost:
Energy Bill $13.xx/month (call it $15/month) This is what I was paying in L.A. in 2007 to run my 400w HID lamp (24/0, 30 days straight) calculated from the lamps spec sheet and the current rate listed on my power bill from that time and location. 1 month 24/0 = $15 + 3 months 12/12 @$7.50/month = $22.50. Total for 4 month grow = $37.50
For a 400w HID lamp with air cooled reflector I just use 2-3 little inline booster fans which hardley use any electricity at all so its negligable (especially considering how I've been juking the prices in FAVOR of LED) Also, some people may just use there Carbon filter fan to cool their HID light. In that case you wouldn't need to account for it's electicity usage, because you'd be running that fan wheather you used HID or LED.
LIGHT & ENERGY ONLY no air cooling:
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $387.50 (for 1, 4 month grow)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $462.00 (for 3, 4 month grows otherwise known as 1 year)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $575.00 (for 6, 4 month grows, otherwise known as 2 years)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $687.50 (for 9, 4 month grows, otherwise known as 3 years)
WITH AIR COOLING USING 3 booster fans:
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $447.50 (for 1, 4 month grow)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $522.00 (for 3, 4 month grows otherwise known as 1 year)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $635.00 (for 6, 4 month grows, otherwise known as 2 years)
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 400w HID lamp = $747.50 (for 9, 4 month grows, otherwise known as 3 years)
LED
Equipment Cost:
205W Penetrator LED Grow Light = $700
Energy Cost:
As I said above, I'm going to be Extremely Generous towards LED's cause, so We'll just pretend that the penetrator has some magical capability to operate 100% while using NO ENERGY at all.
Grand total for equipment and energy usage on a 205w Penetrator LED grow light = $700
And since I'm being so generous and pretending that the penetrator uses NO ENERGY at all (even though it does use 180w as claimed on the website) the grand total will remain the same no matter how long the grow, or how many years of use, since I'm not even factoring in the cost of energy usage for 180w.
_______________________________________________________________________
Even in this scenario which is completely juked in LED's favor, it would still take a little bit over 3 years, or a little bit under 3 years (depending on if you're factoring in the price of air cooling your light or not) for the energy savings of the 205w penetrator to start saving you money over a 400w HID lamp. More realistically If i used the actuall prices for everything and factored in the penetrator's 180w electricity usage, It would more likely be around 4.5 years until the energy savings made it cheaper to operate this particular LED light over a 400w HID lamp
As far as your 50 year old technology remark, HID lighting in general may be 50 years old, but there are still improvements being made. digital and High Frequency Electronic ballasts are not 50 years old. Also...High Frequency Electronic Ballasts + PSMH lamp (and maybe digital, but not sure) are more energy efficient, and eliminate bulb fade. Plus there is a saying..."don't fix it if it's not broke" HID is tried and true, and affordable by more people.
Again, I'm not hating on LED's, Just showing that even though HID's are less efficient and cost more in energy to run, they will be cheaper when including everything for quite some time or until LED's come down in price a bunch
Initial Cost
205w LED: $700
400w HID: $350
kWh per year, 12/12 all the time
205w LED: 788 kWh
400w HID: 2100 kWh
kWh per year, 24/0 4 months, 12/12 8 months
205w LED: 1050 kWh
400w HID: 2800 kWh
I use the same space to veg and flower, so I used the second set of numbers. I pay $0.13 per kWh. After 1 year, the HID costs $120 less. After 2 years, the HID costs $105 more. After 3, $334 more. After 4, $560 more. And after 5 years, the HID has cost $790 more to run than the LED, and this is completely excluding the cost of replacement bulbs for the HID. I'm only taking into account initial cost and power used by the lights themselves, nothing more.
Maybe you're not hating on LEDs, but you're making them look worse than they are because you can't be bothered to use actual numbers for power usage and share your price per kWh. LEDs don't need your generosity to show that they're more cost effective after only a handful of grows.
205w LED: $700
400w HID: $350
kWh per year, 12/12 all the time
205w LED: 788 kWh
400w HID: 2100 kWh
kWh per year, 24/0 4 months, 12/12 8 months
205w LED: 1050 kWh
400w HID: 2800 kWh
I use the same space to veg and flower, so I used the second set of numbers. I pay $0.13 per kWh. After 1 year, the HID costs $120 less. After 2 years, the HID costs $105 more. After 3, $334 more. After 4, $560 more. And after 5 years, the HID has cost $790 more to run than the LED, and this is completely excluding the cost of replacement bulbs for the HID. I'm only taking into account initial cost and power used by the lights themselves, nothing more.
Maybe you're not hating on LEDs, but you're making them look worse than they are because you can't be bothered to use actual numbers for power usage and share your price per kWh. LEDs don't need your generosity to show that they're more cost effective after only a handful of grows.
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balla420
Member
Just moved, have'nt got a power bill yet, so don't know the current rate here, I don't remember the exact kWh from old place, but I have the calculated total cost of running my 400w HID 24/7 using the kWh from that apartment in L.A. saved on my laptop... just saved the total though, not the work, so no kWh availble.
cost of bulbs too
