2024 State of the genepool discussion.

[Rocket Soul]

My 2 cts: I think some of the old school glory is simply down to more of the weed was being grown outdoors - while the quality of the bud to the touch of your hand is not the same as indoors HID and its harder to pull of a perfect grow theres a special magic in properly sunkissed outdoor (green house not so much). No matter what genetics you have the genes need to be triggered; for smells and high this mostly means blues/uvs and a correct coverage of the red band.

So growing an indoor plant plant is not going to give you a full genetic expression. Now imagine if youre breeding like this; even if youre not trying to breed out "goodness" everytime you select for something youre going to lose something aswell. If all of the progeny wasnt fully expressed genetically you dont know what youre losing, since it wasnt fully expressed in that special pheno you should have chosen. You dont even have to breed against a trait to lose it.

Outdoors breeding is hard to do: you cant have several males side by side and control your breeding process. So each year one you can cross one male in one space, though you can use several females. Indoors this is easy with separate grow rooms. So the more interest in breeding strains, the more indoor breeding the more plants bred without full genetic expression and the more things are lost. Maybe we kinda did this to ourselves by having such interest in growing new genetics and just general grow interest.

My buddy breeds with oldschool genetics (all from hippie seeds brought back from travels or old mystery cuts, and full uv supplementation. You can clearly notice a difference in high in those genetics and its crosses. Its not that its super powerfull it just feels a bit wider, fuller and clean.

 

[kro-magnon]

Sorry this isnt correct either. If your parents both have blue eyes and you have brown eyes then well.... your mother was hanging out with the milk man while Dad was at work. Lol. 2 blue will never have brown. 99% blue. 1% green. 0 % brown. Recessive genes in cannabis are a motherf#cker because they usually are the most desirable traits. Desirable traits that are the first thing to disappear in a cross. Like the infamous skunk and pine bud of the 80s . Gone.

Those traits might be appealing to you but I assure for most smokers of the world the skunk spray smell is totally unappealing, I had some plants with foul smell coming from Skunk-Haze and I didn't smoke them, the smell was horrible to me and everyone around me.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Not to forget, that also some biotic factors might trigger secondary metabolites, that normally or indoor wouldn't be produced in such a number or at all. Since we always trying to keep the grow rooms clean, there is ideally no pest pressure. But when I am growing outdoors I have the feeling, that my plants stink waaaaay worse, when there is slight aphid pressure or sth like that. All that gets lost due to breeding indoors for indoors. From my veggie gardening I can say: Those fruit and veggies that had some mild pest pressure are almost always the most aromatic.

 

[kro-magnon]

Not to forget, that also some biotic factors might trigger secondary compounds, that normally or indoor wouldn't be produced in such a number or at all. Since we always trying to keep the grow rooms clean, there is ideally no pest pressure. But when I am growing outdoors I have the feeling, that my plants stink waaaaay worse, when there is slight aphid pressure or sth like that. All that gets lost due to breeding indoors for indoors. From my veggie gardening I can say: Those fruit and veggies that had some mild pest pressure are almost always the most aromatic.

This is interesting specially if you consider the terpenes the plants produce are part of their defense mechanisms against pests. Being stinkier might make them less ppealing to critters, me personally I didn't notice huge difference in smells when I've grown the same cuts out and in at the same time(I could for a while to do that). Only one plant had a very different smell when grown outdoor compared to indoor, it was a Jillybean who smelled of orange mixed with garbage/skunk smell indoor and out door it reeked badly of gasoline. But it was grown in the native soil out door and it was for years a cows pasture so some part might have been too rich in something who changed the terpenes ratio.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Its actually an interesting topic. Just had a quick search and found this:

D Purnomo 2021 IOP Conf. Ser.: Earth Environ. Sci. 824 012089

Radware Bot Manager Captcha

gives a quick overview of what I mean.

All those indoor "not-triggered" responses could get lost in selection, coz breeders don't even know, that there might be traits, they cant even see / analyse. I guess that could also be a reason, why some newer varieties tend to perform super bad outdoors when it comes to pests and diseases. The selective pressure didn't happen, so resistances and defense mechanisms where not needed.

Not even going into negative correlation of yield and resistances and quality.

I also think that some positive traits might got lost due to selective breeding. https://www.researchgate.net/figure...d-trichomes-on-their-surface-a_fig1_318244578

As we can see here, there is variety in trichomes, but what was done is going away from

non‐cystolithic trichome towards masses of capitate stalked trichomes. ​

​

All that degenerates the gene pool and resistances. We should at least try to have an eye on traits that are not super special in the first place, but maybe towards environmental factors.

Regards

 

[linde]

We just have to accept the fact that cannabis is constantly in flux. What we liked and smoked 10 yrs ago will evolve into something new and different. Some good some bad. I do agree there are some fantastic news strains out there. Taste wise but I don't get the happy giggly red eye cotton mouth head rush buzz like the 80s and 90s dope. A lot more anxiety and paranoia with most of these new hybrids. Not the happy feel good buzzes of yesteryear. Oh well it is what it is

 

[kro-magnon]

We just have to accept the fact that cannabis is constantly in flux. What we liked and smoked 10 yrs ago will evolve into something new and different. Some good some bad. I do agree there are some fantastic news strains out there. Taste wise but I don't get the happy giggly red eye cotton mouth head rush buzz like the 80s and 90s dope. A lot more anxiety and paranoia with most of these new hybrids. Not the happy feel good buzzes of yesteryear. Oh well it is what it is

What you describe about the effects happen to many people after a certain age, it's more how your organism react than the strains

 

[kro-magnon]

wrong thread, thought it was my grow log, sorry.

 

[therealpacific]

Every time you select you also reject - and thus make the genepool less diverse.

Which as I understand it is the whole point of "breeding". Select those most representative of the ideal and reject all others. Whatever the individual breeder is selecting for, only they know.

 

[El Timbo]

Which as I understand it is the whole point of "breeding". Select those most representative of the ideal and reject all others. Whatever the individual breeder is selecting for, only they know.

Correct if we are talking about improving a line but I was responding to:

No we broaden the gene pool with greater selection

 

[revegeta666]

Taste wise but I don't get the happy giggly red eye cotton mouth head rush buzz like the 80s and 90s dope. A lot more anxiety and paranoia with most of these new hybrids. Not the happy feel good buzzes of yesteryear. Oh well it is what it is

This is because breeder's goals changed. Traditionally people used to select plants based on what they made you feel like. When I was a teenager and in my twenties, no one cared about what weed tasted like as long as it didn't taste bad.

At the end of the 90s, Dutch breeders were mostly focused on production and taste. Nowadays American breeders only care about smell and taste (terps brah). Focusing on these things, and the lack of testing, means the quality of the effect takes a back seat, or doesn't matter at all. You have to dig deeper if you want to find weed that has decent effects rather than lobotomizing you and/or making you anxious.

 

[Rocket Soul]

Not to forget, that also some biotic factors might trigger secondary metabolites, that normally or indoor wouldn't be produced in such a number or at all. Since we always trying to keep the grow rooms clean, there is ideally no pest pressure. But when I am growing outdoors I have the feeling, that my plants stink waaaaay worse, when there is slight aphid pressure or sth like that. All that gets lost due to breeding indoors for indoors. From my veggie gardening I can say: Those fruit and veggies that had some mild pest pressure are almost always the most aromatic.

The one "outdoor environment" factor ive seen somewhat successfully tested was drought stress. When right applied it can boost thc, but the paper looked like it was very easy to mess it up.

This is interesting specially if you consider the terpenes the plants produce are part of their defense mechanisms against pests. Being stinkier might make them less ppealing to critters, me personally I didn't notice huge difference in smells when I've grown the same cuts out and in at the same time(I could for a while to do that). Only one plant had a very different smell when grown outdoor compared to indoor, it was a Jillybean who smelled of orange mixed with garbage/skunk smell indoor and out door it reeked badly of gasoline. But it was grown in the native soil out door and it was for years a cows pasture so some part might have been too rich in something who changed the terpenes ratio.

I dont think it changes totally it just enrichen the the smell and high. I know ive been on and on with this but next to no light under 450nm makes the smell seem like a child which never got to grow up properly.

wrong thread, thought it was my grow log, sorry.

If you can access tissue culture you can save your mothers in a test tube. This also supposedly reset any epigenetic effects and clear latent hops virus and other pathologies.
Never tried it but its big game in big canna growing.

 

[kro-magnon]

About the Jillybean I swear the smell was totally different and unpleasant I didn't want to smoke this plant at all. The other plants I've grown in the 2 situations were not very different in their smell and high, the outdoor version had a better yield but not perceivable better high or taste. At least for me, many people who smoked the outdoor buds thought they were indoor, because in my country it's extremely rare to see really good outdoor buds. as those could be.
I don't have to TC in my country, it's illegal to grow where I am.
I might have misunderstood your previous post @Rocket Soul You meant outdoor can improve the organoleptic qualities of a plant compared to her indoor version? This is possible if the outdoor environment is not too hostile to the plants or do you think some stress can be useful to get some better quality buds?

 

[eastcoastjoe]

If you can access tissue culture you can save your mothers in a test tube. This also supposedly reset any epigenetic effects and clear latent hops virus and other pathologies.
Never tried it but its big game in big canna growing

It’s also big money lol. Not something the average grower can do at home but i am glad to finally see it being practiced with cannabis.

 

[Rocket Soul]

About the Jillybean I swear the smell was totally different and unpleasant I didn't want to smoke this plant at all. The other plants I've grown in the 2 situations were not very different in their smell and high, the outdoor version had a better yield but not perceivable better high or taste. At least for me, many people who smoked the outdoor buds thought they were indoor, because in my country it's extremely rare to see really good outdoor buds. as those could be.
I don't have to TC in my country, it's illegal to grow where I am.
I might have misunderstood your previous post @Rocket Soul You meant outdoor can improve the organoleptic qualities of a plant compared to her indoor version? This is possible if the outdoor environment is not too hostile to the plants or do you think some stress can be useful to get some better quality buds?

It obviously depends on what your indoor lighting is, improve on leds yes most definitely but also as in your case make it less to your taste. Lets say change.
Outdoor in a sunny climate youll have peaks of 2000ppfd at midday. In elevation youll have up to 10% UV, 3 at sealevel. Maybe im making too much of these cause the most fantastic outdoor grown ive smoked have all been in Spain and about +800m elevation.
UV and high intensity light does change the whole situation, this is something outdoor growers known for 100s of years from practical experience. Recent problems in replicating this in controlled indoor grows dont change that.

 

[kro-magnon]

My outdoor growing environment was at Lat44N, well over Spain. If I was living in a place with the same sun than Spain I'g grow outdoor most of the year and only do a bit of indoor for a few strains. I've smoked some Swiss flowers grown outdoor in the Alps, they were excellent that's sure.High altitude can add something that's true.

 

[Dime]

Every time you select you also reject - and thus make the genepool less diverse.

I was comparing fem with regs but make what you will of it.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I'd like to see fem and autos ditched,one narrows the pool ,the other pisses in it.

I know I've got to stay out of this fucking thread because I'm a old dinosaur and I don't have any altruistic notion about the "gene pool" . I'm a practical man and my problem with feminization has to do with availability and stabilization, without the strength and robustness of the staminate plant.

When I started a thread about feminization a couple of weeks ago, it turned into a clusterfuck that even _I_ couldn't even participate in, for fear of getting kicked out of yet another cannabis forum.

But I totally and 100% agree with your statement!

Glad the "gene pool" I've been working with for the last 25 years has been 100% under my control and not diminished by chemical manipulation or cannabinoid dilution.

 

[xtsho]

I see a lot of people here complain when they never had it so easy to find or grow some good quality buds, in the USA you have fought to make it legal and mainstream, enjoy the fruits, even if it can be bitter.
The offerings of cannabis seeds has never been so large, yes for the average consumers it is more or less the same things with different names. Because they don't care, they want buds. The informed consumers like mosts here want something more exclusive, no problem to find it, TRSC, Khalifa, Supernatural production, Nierika seeds trust, ACE, you need more, just take a plane and go look for yourself in a foreign country. instead of whining on a forum because you can't find the weed you smoke on your 18th birthday(no one can find it, ever, it lives in your head only)
I still live in a prohibitionist country and there is a huge preservationists movement in France and and in many European countries; What are you waiting for in the USA to do the same on a bigger scale ?

There are some in the USA that are more focused on preservation than growing the latest hyped strain but we're a very small minority and definitely not large scale. I've been growing nothing but ACE and RSC for years. Making seeds of everything along the way.

The USA has a much different mindset than people living in the European region. We're a relatively new country compared to others and don't have the rich cultural heritage that European countries have. I think because of that there isn't as strong a desire among many for preserving the past. Here people throw perfectly good items in the trash not because they no longer function but because they have to have the newest. We waste as much as we consume which is not the case in other countries.

Americans are driven by vanity and greed. Nobody wants to grow the old stuff. They want to grow the latest Orange Dragon Peanut Butter Crumble Cake strain before everyone else so they can brag about it and hear the "Wow" reaction from their friends. Americans are also as focused with the equipment, charts, graphs, meters, brand of nutrients, etc... as they are actually growing the plant it seems at times.

For instance, I've had people call me a fool because I'm still using an HPS. They tell me I need to get an LED. When I ask them why they can't come up with any legitimate answer and can only say I'm living in the past. I may well be a fool but it isn't because I have an HPS in my tent. I like the past and see no reason to throw away a perfectly good light that produces exceptional bud. I like the here and now and look forward to the future as well. So many here in America don't care about the past. It's just what's next, I have to have it first, Look at me! So with that mindset being so prevalent it's not surprising that people have no interest in growing something that doesn't have the "Wow" factor or isn't trending on Instagram. It is what it is and isn't likely to change.

 

[led05]

Its declined harshly since the golden era of the 2010's.

The 2010's landraces and heirlooms were opened up to the public. The One and Blue Orca were commanded to be freely accessible to anyone capable of growing them. Pure Hazes, old Skunks, pure Africans and Thais, A5/C5, true F1's, well-planned Bx's and IX's.

Now, many things are being crossed with autos and or femmed lines in order to appeal to rookie Rec companies who are growing as per their investor's suggestions/commandments.
Cant find The One or Blue Orca anywhere (Swami's white-label guy Gascannistan won't release them because $$$). GSC polyhybrids being passed off as OG.
Big companies working on kill genes to make cannabis sterile for everyone but themselves.
Medical cannabis is a thing of the past. Cannatonic and Harlequin have disappeared, as has RSO/FECO. Patients cant afford meds anymore and trim is expensive (and pesticide ridden).
The 2010's were the glory days of organic, chemical free cannabis. Now, everyone is using petrol chemicals to pass lab testing.
Fake cuts are more circulated than the real thing (where's Sour D, pre98 Bubba not from s1's).

Having lost my vault to a fore a few yrs ago, Ive been searching for legit genetics from seedbanks and man, its discouraging.
I miss the days of Seedbay, Cannabiogen, Gypsy's seeds from his safari's, that stellar Dreadbread cut....

Maybe I'm biased?

You should peek into one of my fridges to brighten up your days my old buddy