1969 Mekong Delta strain

[tazz11]

a breeder will learn a set of skills that work for him and if he is a good breeder he can refine a strain and make it do what he wants it to ...the most often mistake I see in breeding is throwing away good qualities to hunt the holly grail ..over kill .. strains are a tug of war , with dozens of traits on both sides of the center knot...if the captain of one side and you kick one of your players off the team . it may not change the out come but your going to notice the difference , on the other side of that balance is the counter balance to the player you threw off your team and now the other side gains ground and you caused it ...do this a few times and you will have no control over your own strain base stabilization,,... the is more common then you would guess ...


the true breeding begins when the breeder can add and remove with out changing the stabilization of the strain base ..


did you know when you put the early G13 in cold temps it was a very short and dark green plant and nothing like it is in normal environments why .. because it started out as a Sativa base ...
the indicia was crossed into it ,to give it that modern high .. back then . there were few indicia and a lot of really great Sativa ..


so you tell me what should we do when the Sativa are almost gone and there is nothing left to make it Dominant ..


I can tell how this plays out . Sativa vanish and so dose all those great hybrids we all love ...if the breeders don't start building Sativa hybrids your going to see this in your life time ...when the next best strain shows up it will choke out the genetic pool like NL and Kush ...soon there will be no recovery ,the genetic pool will be bland and useless .. only the isolated breeders will remain ....and they most likely will not care what the market wants .. lol much like me now ...!

 

[ctg]

FYI breeding with only one male creates a bottle neck in the genetics and you end up loosing diversity within future populations. Diversity is where you'll find the special plants that legends are made of!
-ct-

 

[tazz11]

FYI breeding with only one male creates a bottle neck in the genetics and you end up loosing diversity within future populations. Diversity is where you'll find the special plants that legends are made of!
-ct-

you have a sound under standing of how pheno effect the IBL line but with one correction .. even a IBL can be stressed to bring out hidden traits locked with in it ,, that's what cold temp growing is all about .. the strains abilities to defend it's self, even if a IBL is a IBL , the fact remains .when conditioned to a set environment and change in that environment can make the strain case diversity .. same as changing fertilizers ,and many other things can change the strain . water temp is used in cold temp growing ..and to point I do agree with you starting a strain breeding project and crossing it with selected hybrids bring the odds of nice pheno to the off spring side of the genders ..
a lot of pheno traits that we select for are locked in the female gender side of the crosses .. yet with the under standing for each female trait a male counter balance traits is hidden away in side the strain so if you select for one you need to take the strain out 7-8 generations before that cross is stable so any effort to control traits before it is stable is wasted ...


and often you will find if you select a strain to keep you must select its counter traits or the strain will drift and there is nothing you can do to stop it ...


this is vey common problem in modern strains, we see strains that are stable in one environment and not when you get them to your grow ...


this is why many years I have said the same thing .. under stand the standard of breeding strains . the 9 by 9 room with 1000HPS ,with Co2 and good watering & fertilizer habits if used .


when you under stand the common ground you share with the seed banks . you learn the ability to mimic the environment the seed were designed in ..if you can grow that one simple room environment you can grow thousands of rooms with that same under standing ..


and don't be in a race to base a strain only on a given pheno . often the reason a pheno shows up is the fact your conditions have changed in your grow or the environment has ..


in many ways I feel you are correct but this is often lost in poor growing systems and un-stable environments ...


so when you see that great pheno . what is the first thing you should do ... keep records ! keep records ! keep records ..


under stand observing is your best tool when breeding ...and set a pattern and stick with it .. you find a pheno you grow the strain out 7-8 gens and never stop looking for that area one with ever grow that passes you ...why you are working with one pheno dozens may pass you because you are stabilizing that given one pheno ...so if you see that pheno . collect all phenos from that strain till it is stable . in this way if your pheno drifts you have the pheno that surround that traits to help you get the drift under control before you loss that great pheno ....and some one else ends up smoking it latter down the strains future crosses ..


this is one of the reasons I like breeding in house . your strains are always conditioned to your environments and you control when a strain is added and this controls the rate of unknown pheno types in the mass . a plus when open pollination is used ...


by now you may be thinking how dose the hunt for pheno work in a open pollination setting ...the breeder becomes the observer and has over all less effects on the strains and plants within the grow . they grow out their life cycle and you become the god watching from a far .. and your weed becomes the nectar of the gods ...and think of this if you under stand what I have shared with you . all your weed will be just what you are looking for because you had the time and made the efforts to select and observer the strains at every stage of development ....the skilled & trained eye can not be easily fooled ...the brain observe far more then the eyes ...

 

[tazz11]

if you had any doubts when I stated I believed the G13 came from ORNL.. this will change your mind ..they did in fact test and research cannabis at that site .. and here is a staff that stated so ...from the late 60's to 1975 when he started working at ORNL, this is proof that the G13 could have in fact came from this location ...and that is possible that the legendary strain G13 fair tail is not a fairy tail at all and is fact .. it was run as a founded government lab ...I can guess what the odds are that the G13 came from here . but I leave it up to you . has any ever gotten this close to where it came from till now I think not ... they did not get fired for taking the sample and there is enough data to track it back to its source...surprise G13 is real ....now ask your self if G13 was real and I used Abducted to track it back to its source guess what strain G13 was cross from ...?see how they used the wording for tobacco plant (genus Nicotiana). G in G13 most likely stood for a genus sample .could this be where G13 came from ... Yes ! now look at the ORNL . I told you I believe the NL(northern lights ) came from the same source as G13 ...is this part of a hidden code to tell other where these sample came from ...NL or National Laboratory...both came from a unknown ...source , so put them back together in the right order ( G13 OR NL ) now do you see what I see ...they coded the name of the lab into the strains they named that way some day someone would put them in the right order and find out where the samples came from ...


http://web.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/measure/analy/advent/advent.htm

 

[Elmer Bud]

Adventures in Aerosol Characterization: Smoke Gets in Your Eyes

By Roger A. Jenkins


Over the past 20 years, ORNL has been generating, sampling, or chemically characterizating a variety of complex atmospheres, including airborne exhausts from weapon systems and diesel-powered vehicles, marijuana smoke, metal-working fluid mists, and environmental tobacco smoke.

When I joined the ORNL staff in late 1975, the Analytical Chemistry Division's project to characterize tobacco smoke was already several years old. It was started in the late 1960s by Mike Guerin and, at its peak, more than 25 full-time employees were involved. Talk about a shift in perspective from graduate school, where I had worked with relatively simple mixtures, determining fundamental principles. By contrast, my new job at ORNL was to determine the contents of tobacco smoke, one of the most complex materials around.
Tobacco smoke starts with the leaves of the tobacco plant (genus Nicotiana). This natural product contains hundreds of carbohydrates, enzymes, and inorganic species. After being picked, the leaves are placed in tobacco barns and dried, cured, fermented, and aged to develop the desired aroma. Then the leaves are shredded, and the tobacco is rolled up into cigarettes, which smokers buy and set on fire.

Roger Jenkins

Fig. 1. Roger Jenkins prepares to test an ORNL-developed downhole vapor sampling system for collecting vapors in monitoring wells at DOE's Savannah River Site.

The resulting tobacco smoke contains many of the chemical species in tobacco leaves, most additives (e.g., menthol and flavorants) put into cigarettes, and thousands of pyrolysis and pyrosynthesis products formed during the burning process. To add to the complexity of this mixture, the smoke changes both physically and chemically between the time it leaves the cigarette and enters the lower airways of the smoker's lungs. More than 8000 individual components have now been identified in cigarette smoke, so trying to analyze 20 or 30 of the more important species in this brew was a real challenge.

Fortunately, many of us in what is now the Organic Chemistry Section of the Chemical and Analytical Sciences Division found that we were able to use the skills developed in meeting this challenge for a variety of new research projects involving aerosol characterization (see Fig. 1). Over the past 20 years, we have been generating, sampling, or chemically characterizating a variety of complex atmospheres: military smokes and obscurants, airborne exhausts from weapon systems and diesel-powered vehicles, avicides, marijuana smoke, and more recently, metal-working fluid mists and environmental tobacco smoke (also known as second-hand smoke). Much of our work has been in direct or indirect support of studies or concerns involving the inhalation toxicity of these materials, forcing us to solve a number of difficult problems.



Monkey Business
in Arkansas

In the mid-1980s, the National Institute on Drug Abuse supported studies at the National Center for Toxicological Research (NCTR) in Jefferson, Arkansas, that were designed to determine the extent to which marijuana smoke would alter the geometric positioning of nerve synapses in the brains of rhesus monkeys. Earlier studies with the pure psychoactive ingredient in marijuana smoke, 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (9-THC), indicated some permanent changes in experimental animals, but no one had good data on the actual effects of marijuana smoke on monkeys.
rhesus monkey

Fig. 2. This rhesus monkey at the National Center for Toxicological Research will be exposed to marijuana smoke as part of an experiment.

Our ORNL group was asked to modify existing smoking machines to generate marijuana smoke more realistically (roach clip and all). We were also asked to determine the fraction of smoke offered the monkeys that they inhaled and retained. The smoking machines were reengineered with minor difficulty, but solving the second problem was more challenging. Being analytical chemists, we like to make direct measurements. Building on work done years ago in which beagle dogs were exposed to tobacco smoke, we were able to make direct determinations of the amount of smoke generated by the machines. A large respirator mask filter was placed on the end of the tube connected to the rhesus monkey's exhalation mask. This filter collected the exhaled marijuana smoke. By measuring the difference between the amount of 9-THC in the exhaled monkey breath and that coming from the smoke generated by the smoking machine, we determined that the monkeys retained 40 to 60% of the offered smoke-much more than the amount predicted by models based on the sizes of particles in the smoke. (See Fig. 2.)

Another challenge was dealing with a large number of monkeys that were "stoned." In addition to exhibiting some weird behavioral traits (e.g., eating cigarette lighters), they would get the "munchies," much like humans do. I once watched a 4-kg rhesus monkey eat an entire apple, which is equivalent to the author downing 25 or so at one sitting.

 

[tazz11]

EB think of this , one of those 25 employees could have been the person that took G13 .....lol


OK lets say I am right just for debate


if ORNL was doing test groups it had to have a guide line , and test monkeys from the start in the late 60's to 1973 , but any smart research lab will tell you the monkeys would have to be native to the strains . for the test to be environmentally correct..


"Rhesus macaques are native to northern India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Nepal, Burma, Thailand, Afghanistan, Vietnam, southern China, and some neighboring areas.


you want to know where the strains they were testing came from .. simple the same place the monkeys came from ...logic . best tool in the box ...and out of box ...lol


look at the locations ....Thai , Afghani , Vietnamese Sativa . that takes care of the 3 strains in question ...

 

[burningfire]

why would it matter where the monkeys came from, all they care about are their lungs and the effects of cannabis smoke on the lungs.. there's no benefit from having monkeys smoking strain from where they originate.

you need to step back and re-focus because you're veering off course pretty hard

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Tazz

Hmmm so the Beagle dogs ?
That were used for testing .By correlation ; they were special breeds from Virginia ?


Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[tazz11]

G`day Tazz

Hmmm so the Beagle dogs ?
That were used for testing .By correlation ; they were special breeds from Virginia ?


Thanks for sharin

EB .

no that would be a test on the location the test are being given at .. like a blank test group . this way they can check there test groups vs the blank and this tells them the test has a normal drift rate of variation ...its like the placebo test group ... it dose not mean anything by it self but when it runs side by side with there test then they can check its variation with theirs ...this would tell you if any environmental changes were effecting the test group ...


besides that I am focusing on the years between 1969 and 1973 , if there were any facts about the legendary G13 that was the time line and has been from the late 70's back when it was first rate weed before the strain became well known ..I always wonderd why the G13 story had some detail to it .. un like most Bs stories ... and if anything else we can see the story could have very well been true ...not to say it is , just the details and possibilities are there locked in the records


..but think of this going every day to a white lab coat job working all day and being straight ,and working with strains collected from all around the world back then , who ever it was that took the G13 . I warship this Mother F*cker for years growing up ...

 

[tazz11]

we need to step back and take a look around us and watch what strains come and go .. these rare strains are out there some unknown and some variations , its up to the isolated breeders to find and locate and collect them . most big seed banks do a great job selling seeds and collecting what they can .. but its up to us the smokers and the collectors . most new smokers and med weed users don't know the strains and we know it takes years and years to know even a hand full of them ...


there are some great modern strains out there that may never get the chance to be famous ,because the genetic pool is so vast and moving so fast now they are famous one day and gone the next ...


collect . save what you can . try to keep records and label out your strains with good record keeping skills ... keep a photo and hand written record of your strains ...now days there is a debate going on about how valuable and rare some Cannabis strains really are . and thousands of strains are becoming important breeding stock .. the pot of yesterday is gone and the legendary strains are now worth 20-50 times what they were back then , some are even priceless to breeding ....


so that run of the mill strain you grow may some day become a legend .. and its in your hands right now ...this is why I say what I do ... control your environment and make every strain you grow have the best chance to become a legendary strain ...I don't care if your the newbie or the pro ,,,if you have full control over your environment and skills . you can collect and make a difference in the genetic pool, your efforts are the best chance for these strains to be around 50 years from now ...back in the day I grew rare strains like panama red and G13 and NL and Kona and many others most are near gone ...in the last 50 years many of the people I once smoked with are gone and some no longer smoke .. some times I set at night reading the data on the web and thinking about how much I miss the old days .. don't ever forget the good times they are to rare to waste ..I was there I remember those rare strains.

 

[tazz11]

I was thinking about what makes this strain different then others . its not because its a land race Sativa or because its was found in 1969 .. its the fact it is a wide leaf Sativa ,,, we see them more now then in the past but the few old school wide leaf were far and few between .. you just did not see them back then ...now the interesting thing about this is the wide leaf indicia was developed after the Sativa .. is this in some way part of the development of the indicia.. could these wide leaf Sativa traits be hidden locked with in other Sativa strains ...and under the right conditions and environment they came to the surface .. just something to think about . as the traits of cannabis are always changing with every new phenol that pops up ...I just wonder how the new group of hybrids will develop and will traits like the wide leaf Sativa vanish like the rare strains or will it help us develop new hybrids that have the wide leaf Sativa traits , the reason I say that is simple . 95 % of the Abducted Hybrids are wide leaf even when the cross sub strain was indicia ...the wide lead Sativa traits have dominated the other sub strains , and your not just talking about run of the mill street weed strains these are all hybrid and conditioned to the environment ...


any guesses as to why this is a wide leaf Sativa . I was thinking years of one set environment where less light comes down and reaches the plants . forcing the plants to develop wide leafs to catch the sun light threw the rain forest canapé .....


but why don't other Sativa do that ... ? could it be some reason ,like the delta environment causing it ,I think we would have seen more wide leaf strains if that was the case ...


I will keep observing the leafs of the hybrids and watch to see how they develop but so far the wide leaf traits are dominate traits in 6 hybrids left . we lost one male .isolating it was a bad idea ...

 

[Donald Mallard]

Sativa leaf is usually thin because thin leaf will dissipate heat better,
it would be a natural selection process ,
they are usually thin , narrow leaf in hot tropical climates ...

 

[purple clouds]

@tazz11 everything has yin-yang energy.

yin=female traits/cold/phosphorus/calcium/red spectrum light/wide leaf/regress/etc...
yang=male traits/hot/nitrogen/blue spectrum light/thin leaf/refine/etc...

Yin and yang energy within the plant decides which genes show up in the plant. You want maximum yin and yang energy in balance to bring out the best of plants/seedlines.

There are different frequencies within energies which gives them different actions.

revegging flowering plants 1/3-2/3 of total flower locks in some of the energy from that clone generation of its enviroment.

Right?

 

[Elmer Bud]

 

[tazz11]

Sativa leaf is usually thin because thin leaf will dissipate heat better,
it would be a natural selection process ,
they are usually thin , narrow leaf in hot tropical climates ...

I fully agree that's why I find it interesting this strain has the wide leaf ..

 

[tazz11]

@tazz11 everything has yin-yang energy.

yin=female traits/cold/phosphorus/calcium/red spectrum light/wide leaf/regress/etc...
yang=male traits/hot/nitrogen/blue spectrum light/thin leaf/refine/etc...

Yin and yang energy within the plant decides which genes show up in the plant. You want maximum yin and yang energy in balance to bring out the best of plants/seedlines.

There are different frequencies within energies which gives them different actions.

revegging flowering plants 1/3-2/3 of total flower locks in some of the energy from that clone generation of its enviroment.

Right?

right to given point but here we see the wide leaf traits in a male dominate strain , I think that's what makes this strain interesting ..


we will see first hand in the gender show ...I am looking for a male traits ...


and yes I do agree with you .. + and - of strain reflection is always interesting ...


I studied Polly, herm, mutations, and pheno types . and land race vs modern strain reflections .. I see few that stand out like the Abducted .. it will all come down to the hybrids if this strain has a chance to define a future for it self ...

 

[purple clouds]

Tazz11 have you looked into hmong culture and where it traveled?
They seem to be great keepers of the best cannabis and they spread it throughout china, laos, vietnam, thailand.

They originated in china, chinese cannabis is usually wide leaf. Most hmong cannabis have wide leaf traits within and have been adapted in cool temps at night in the mountainous regions.

.

 

[Thcvhunter]

PC,
Shhhhh, dont be giving out all the secrets now

 

[tazz11]

if he wants to play with his yang that's up to him ...

 

[420empire]

Great Thread Tazz!

Any updates about the strain ?

Kind tokes

420E