120/240V, T104, 40amp with 8/3??

[In Vino Veritas]

Damn, I'm pretty lost right now. Not sure where on my 24x24" panel I should mount the panel and timer.. Not really sure how to wire the sub, or the bus bar.. Heh.. I have a few diagrams and I understand but none match up with my stuff.. I bought a SquareD HomeLine, HOM612L100SCP.. See if I can find a .pdf online...

I get what I need to do, connect my 3 wires to the 3 bolts in the sub, not sure which goes where or the bar...

 

[20kw dreams]

Yea I dont know whats prettier the bud or the board!

That bud is a dime a dozen(not literally of course) but that board is one in a million:smile:

I'll take the cover off and get a nice close up of the insides in case anybody later wants to have something to look at for reference.

 

[20kw dreams]

If there are no screws on the board for the lead, then you prob need to wire it to a breaker which acts as a main for the panel.

 

[In Vino Veritas]

It's a 6 breaker, 12 circuit 100A panel. The board, I assume is the metal conductor inside the sub? It has 3 bolts for connecting wires to. One seems to run on one side, the other to the other side and then one connected to a long bar with screws on it..

I didn't find the wire I needed so I'll have to wait to pick some up tomorrow, also need a new MH bulb I have none..

I'm guessing I ground the sub to the main, one hot for one side the other hot for the other side, and then run off of the circuits depending on what I plan to do.. but I don't want to guess. Hah..

 

[20kw dreams]

The bar with the screws in it is ground, the others are your 2 hot 120 bars. Just send the hots over to an appropriate breaker in the main box, and the ground over to the ground in the main panel. Simple enough, really. Make sure the breaker in the main is off. This is key, unless you get off on electrocution or something:smile:

 

[In Vino Veritas]

Why did it have me buy a bus bar? I bought the little bar it asked for, says it's a bus bar. But there is a bar already in the sub that is longer, horizontal, but has the same screws.. It has the same bolt as the other ones.. I guess I needed that bus bar if I was running 4 connector?

Wanted to ask you, how much is too much air blowing into my attic? I want to use the 6" 440CFM to exhaust through a scrubber - not sure if 6"x6" or 12"x6" passive intake. I want the maximum air flow I can get in there.

 

[Guest]

The extra bar is the groundbar,the neutral is the long bar with the screws.You are going to have trouble feeding a main lug 100A panel with #10 AWG,the lugs are designed to accomadate #1 or #2 AWG.Another words when you tighten the lugs to the max,the 10 wire will just slip in and out.If you use this panel you must bring the 10 wire from the panel to a 30A breaker in the sub,this will feed the entire panel and give you a means of disconnect.With a main lug panel you have no way to kill power to the sub except at the breaker in the main panel,this isn't good.I would take that panel back and get a 30A main breaker panel.Instead of it being a 6-12 ML-100 or L-100(main lug) you want a 6-12 30 amp MB30 or B-30 (main breaker) panel.

 

[packn2puff]

It all comes down to..do you want it to just work or be safe, within NEC code and work..
Yeah it's power for a grow..so I'm not saying code to pass your permit inspection..I'm saying code, because it's safe..
run small feeder conductors to your panel off too large a breaker..you're asking for a fire..no bigger than 30A on #10 AWG..and grow lighting is considered a "continuous load"
Your single phase panel should have provisions for L1, N, L2 & Ground feed wire..
when it is listed on MC cable or Romex as 10/3..the ground is not in the count 10/3 usually contains 4 conductors Black, Red, White, Green (or bare)..
Black to L1, Red to L2, White to Neutral, Green to Ground..is how it's usually done..
measuring voltage L1 to L2 most modern single phase residential USA is 240VAC and L1 or L2 to N is 120VAC..
so if you use a single pole breaker to N you get 120V..Double pole breaker with no neutral you get 240V..
Sometimes the 240V is sent to the device with no neutral (3 wire plug)..this is when the device will only use the 240V..and doesn't need the neutral..
Some need a neutral (4 wire plug) like most stoves with a 120V clock or controller..
Most multi-voltage(taps or intellivolt) lighting ballasts only require 3 wire L1, L2, G for 240V or L1 (or L2), N, G for 120V single phase

As far as having a ground..or 4 wire is BS..that is crazy talk..the neutral is considered a grounded conductor..not ground..yes it it is grounded at the panel..
yes you can grab on to it and no shock..unless it became open and touched metal on the load side of the open..with no 4th wire..ground..
the next to touch that metal would receive a nice shock and have the pleasure of the load trying to do work though their body..
if hot was shorted to ungrounded metal..you could become a circuit to ground, neutral or not..
Also if you use 240V loads and don't use a neutral..then old greeny is the only thing providing a path to ground..so you can grow another day..
if the neutral busbar is insulated from the panel case..it probably comes with a green bonding screw to bond the neutral to the panel..

Go to home depot and buy an Ugly's manual..they are about $5..usually hanging with the electrical tools..any electrical supply house will have them too..
This little book carries a lot of good info..be safe man..electrical accidents occur very quick..and are many times extremely serious or fatal..
I only say this because you got yourself a panel, but are asking questions you should know for sure before attempting to do so..
120V shock is one thing but an arc blast burns from a short across the lines to the face or body can be life changing..

The ugly's will give you ampacity charts to chose the right breakers for the wire..and it shows you how to connect many devices and receptacles..
Also you can use a contactor if you want to run all your loads off one timer..Intermatic motor-clock timers use different motors for different voltage levels

If the panel did not provide a bus for neutral or ground that is what the extra is for..if you will only be using 240V then no neutral is needed..
but if the panel is to supply 120V/240V loads, then you need the neutral..in most cases the neutral bus can be attached to the case..just like the ground..
but the neutral feeder needs to be connected to the bus..if not, it will work, but the neutral current will travel on the ground wire or path from the sub to the main panel..

I'm a sparky by trade..I do it all day every week day..hope this helps some..

 

[Guest]

Good info bro but doesnt he want to keep his noodle and ground isolated so there is no continuity between them?The ground bar should be in contact with the metal can but the noodle should be up on insulators so as to be isolated from the can.If you use the bonding screw and bond the noodle to the can,that can and ground become current carrying conductors under load correct?

 

[In Vino Veritas]

Damn you guys got me all ****ed up now.. Hah. Keep in mind the closest person to me is an electrician for 45 years. I just can't go to him for help - i'm not a total novice I just don't have much experience in doing anything like this.

I'm packing up my panel/breakers/bus bar and returning them to HD - I'm going to go to my favorite electrical supply and get all I need.

30A breaker (main)
10/3 romex (main to sub run)
30A panel (sub)
30A breaker (to power t-104)
15A breaker (120v)
15A breaker (120v)

Think I'll snag a 1000w MH from em too..

 

[Guest]

If you use 12 wire to power the timer and fixtures like I thought you were going to you want to protect that circuit with a 20A breaker in the subpanel.Get a panel with a 30A main breaker(MB or B-30).If you cant find one get a 30A breaker for the subpanel to run your wires from the main panel to.EDIT And if you can figure out a way to get help from your friend do it.No offence man but you are a novice and probably shouldn't be relying on us.

 

[In Vino Veritas]

Alright couldn't get the damn romex up the walls, when I thought I had it ran I checked up in the attic and couldn't find it. Most of it got f*cked up while running through the KO in the main panel, even got a couple of knots while pulling it out and had to cut it. $40.00 for 50', with now only about 30' that is usable.

I'm very frustrated, and I can't ask for real world help. I really wanted to have my panel in there, I've been doing this for a while and I've never set up electrical. This damn 2 story house, can't figure out how to run the damn wire. I'm going to pack up all the electrical crap I bought to return it.

I think I can run one of my 1000's right from the outlets in the room. I use CFL's all over my home and in total I have less than 300W consumed - that's if every bulb is on.

 

[In Vino Veritas]

Alright, my a/c blower is upstairs. It says it needs a max of 50/60A - there is a 60A cut-off right under it, and then downstairs in the main there is a 60A dpst for it.

Could I piggy back from there, to my grow room (about 25' run of cable)? The cables that power the 60A are thicker than the ones on the 50A and 40A's - almost looks like its 4ga.

What if it is only one lamp on 220?

Crap, I don't want to have to sell everything to get one 600...

 

[Budweiser13]

Well said listen to this man peeps........First thing is get yorself a tester and never work on electricity live.....

It all comes down to..do you want it to just work or be safe, within NEC code and work..
Yeah it's power for a grow..so I'm not saying code to pass your permit inspection..I'm saying code, because it's safe..
run small feeder conductors to your panel off too large a breaker..you're asking for a fire..no bigger than 30A on #10 AWG..and grow lighting is considered a "continuous load"
Your single phase panel should have provisions for L1, N, L2 & Ground feed wire..
when it is listed on MC cable or Romex as 10/3..the ground is not in the count 10/3 usually contains 4 conductors Black, Red, White, Green (or bare)..
Black to L1, Red to L2, White to Neutral, Green to Ground..is how it's usually done..
measuring voltage L1 to L2 most modern single phase residential USA is 240VAC and L1 or L2 to N is 120VAC..
so if you use a single pole breaker to N you get 120V..Double pole breaker with no neutral you get 240V..
Sometimes the 240V is sent to the device with no neutral (3 wire plug)..this is when the device will only use the 240V..and doesn't need the neutral..
Some need a neutral (4 wire plug) like most stoves with a 120V clock or controller..
Most multi-voltage(taps or intellivolt) lighting ballasts only require 3 wire L1, L2, G for 240V or L1 (or L2), N, G for 120V single phase

As far as having a ground..or 4 wire is BS..that is crazy talk..the neutral is considered a grounded conductor..not ground..yes it it is grounded at the panel..
yes you can grab on to it and no shock..unless it became open and touched metal on the load side of the open..with no 4th wire..ground..
the next to touch that metal would receive a nice shock and have the pleasure of the load trying to do work though their body..
if hot was shorted to ungrounded metal..you could become a circuit to ground, neutral or not..
Also if you use 240V loads and don't use a neutral..then old greeny is the only thing providing a path to ground..so you can grow another day..
if the neutral busbar is insulated from the panel case..it probably comes with a green bonding screw to bond the neutral to the panel..

Go to home depot and buy an Ugly's manual..they are about $5..usually hanging with the electrical tools..any electrical supply house will have them too..
This little book carries a lot of good info..be safe man..electrical accidents occur very quick..and are many times extremely serious or fatal..
I only say this because you got yourself a panel, but are asking questions you should know for sure before attempting to do so..
120V shock is one thing but an arc blast burns from a short across the lines to the face or body can be life changing..

The ugly's will give you ampacity charts to chose the right breakers for the wire..and it shows you how to connect many devices and receptacles..
Also you can use a contactor if you want to run all your loads off one timer..Intermatic motor-clock timers use different motors for different voltage levels

If the panel did not provide a bus for neutral or ground that is what the extra is for..if you will only be using 240V then no neutral is needed..
but if the panel is to supply 120V/240V loads, then you need the neutral..in most cases the neutral bus can be attached to the case..just like the ground..
but the neutral feeder needs to be connected to the bus..if not, it will work, but the neutral current will travel on the ground wire or path from the sub to the main panel..

I'm a sparky by trade..I do it all day every week day..hope this helps some..

 

[packn2puff]

The American..let me clarify..it reads slightly weird to me now as well..

Main Panel..the Neutral(grounded conductor)bus is bonded to the enclosure via the Main Bonding Jumper (usually a long green screw)..the enclosure is bonded to the ground electrode and equipment grounding bus (grounding conductor)..

Sub-Panel..any downstream panels or disconnects fed from the main should not use the MBJ (main bonding jumper)..Neutral should be isolated from the sub panel enclosure, any equipment grounding and raceways..

Simply said..the Neutral(white)(grounded conductor) and the Equipment ground(green)(grounding conductor) are connected..have continuity..at the main panel only and no where else in the system..

Hope that helps

 

[TGT]

Hey 20kw dreams, I'd still like to see a picture with those covers off if possible. Thanks!

TGT

 

[20kw dreams]

yeah, TGT nor prob. I forgot last pic batch, but I'll try to remember tonight when I go do some work in there.

packn2puff - I'm no electrician, but a handyman/carpenter by trade. When I do this kind of thing for myself (Not for others, cause I try to work to code) I always just wire the neutral up to the ground. Is there any realistic case where this would cause a problem? I mean, it's always wired together at the main panel anyways, which might as well be at the sub as far as the speed at which electricity travels, so I've always just figured why bother with a common?

 

[Guest]

The problem here 20K is that the neutral conductor is designed to be a current carrying conductor under load,the ground is considerered to be a non-current carrying conductor only energized under fault conditions.Although these are bonded at the main service any continuity between neutral and ground past the main service enables the grounding conductor to be a live conductor under load like the neutral.You need a seperate path to ground.The neutral wire from the subpanel can use the neutral from the main service to return current to ground,but the grounding conductor must find another path if that makes sense.Thats why the neutral is up on insulators to be seperate from the grounding bar screwed into the can.If there is continuity the can will become energized under load.

 

[In Vino Veritas]

Well if it makes things any better I got 10/3 (4 wires) romex. I got it for free actually after I told my electrical buddy about my other buddy's mishap with the f*cked up cable (feel jerky about that white lie).

So I need to put the 30A in my main panel. Run the wire from there to the room (biggest problem right now). Up in the room, power the new 70A panel (Cutler-Hammer: BR24L70SP). In this panel I will have 1 breaker - it's a 30/15/15 triplex.

I want 8 plugs (4 receptacles), 4x 240v and 4x120v (15A each pair).

So if I run this wire, I'm good??

I'm going to holler back 20k, gotta step out one minute..

 

[20kw dreams]

Ahhhh, I see. The neutral sends the charge to ground, while the "ground" just keeps things from getting hot, so if you touch it in that split second, the charge doesn't go through the box to you, it goes to ground, is that correct? Now, the wiring diagram for the subs in the pics that I use for my grow actually show no ground in the diagram, just the neutral. Why is this? I think that's the reason I started doing this actually. Do they just expect you to ground panel itself?

Now that you put it in a way I can understand, I see the point, and feel like there is a purpose. I have talked to a few electricians, and pretty old school pros at that, and they have not really been able to give me a good answer, and have told me what I'm doing is fine in reality. In your opinion, is it?

I should correct myself to: it's not in the box I connect ground to neutral, but at the outlets.