How do you maintain the vigor of an IBL?

Just wondering if its possible to implement some sort of selection process to maintain the vigor and strength of an IBL without the introduction of new bloodlines? And if there is such a method, could it be applied to landrace strains as well as hybrids?

Self it, grow and bloom the beans. Seed vigor is generally 25% higher.

ibl as in original haze? maui wowie? cripple creek? kona gold?

or ibl as in rez's sour diesel 'ibl' ?

if the prior (real definition of an ibl), then you want to grow from clone as much as possible, and just make some backup f2 stock every few years if you dont have a solid way of keeping seeds fresh nailed down yet. i have seeds ive been saving for ten years that have 100% germination rate (or close to it) so its not even something to worry about more then once a decade if u have your storage technique pinned down.

if yer talkin rez ibl, maybe selfing is the best bet. but selfing is a last resort when it comes to true inbred lines. only self if there are no males.

sure, you can try it, or even do both, but, selfing isnt the answer, since the question is a loaded one to begin with.*

*we need to know what you mean by 'ibl' unfortunately...

cya

Well I had some ideas (and questions) on this very subject, but no one even bothered to comment when I posted them, so I'm not going to waste my time going through that again, but if you want to search you'll probably find my post...

neongreen - link please?

Here you go strainwhore:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=82641

The problem with %99.99 of today's supposed IBLs is that they were not created with care or thought to future development/ refinement within the line. Let's be honest - Most IBL's are seed hack jobs created by posers.

IBLs should be created by using large populations of breeding individuals over generations and generations. If you are seeing genetic weakeness and the line is losing vigour, it's already too late in the program to fix it... the only way to repair the pool is to go back to previous generations that show less inbreeding depression, and start anew or mate them to the line that is further 'refined- and I use that term loosley. If the pool was created using just a couple of individuals, there is no way to repair the pool and keep it pure....the problems you are seeing are the result of the initial hackjob.

When breeding outcrossing species, the idea is to SLOWLY move the genepool/ population towards a given ideal, over many gnerations by breeding all of the individuals that meet your goal, all the while rejecting and excluding individuals that don't meet the given goal from the breeding population. This is called recurrent selection.

Recurrent selection will fix the selected attributes over time, all the while providing enough genetic variation for the traits not under selection to prevent inbreeding depression, and still maintain enough genetic diversity for future down-line selection.

This is why it's impossible to create an 'IBL' in just a few years- those that you see advetised as such on these forums do not qualify as true IBL, other than that they were subject to inbreeding.

-Chimera

Thanks neongreen.

Nice post Chimera - respect!

I wonder if Deep Chunk has that problem. I've never grown a slower plant. It's almost not worth growing, but the smoke is hands down the best I've ever had.

This is why it's impossible to create an 'IBL' in just a few years- those that you see advetised as such on these forums do not qualify as true IBL, other than that they were subject to inbreeding.

Click to expand...

Very interresting, for me an Inbreed line (IBL) is just a R&D from the same P1 with no outcross.

What think about that in this case ?


I think too, too many people mix IBl depression and bad selective pressure (luck management for me). Vigor is one trait among so many others.

Chimera said:

The problem with %99.99 of today's supposed IBLs is that they were not created with care or thought to future development/ refinement within the line. Let's be honest - Most IBL's are seed hack jobs created by posers.

IBLs should be created by using large populations of breeding individuals over generations and generations. If you are seeing genetic weakeness and the line is losing vigour, it's already too late in the program to fix it... the only way to repair the pool is to go back to previous generations that show less inbreeding depression, and start anew or mate them to the line that is further 'refined- and I use that term loosley. If the pool was created using just a couple of individuals, there is no way to repair the pool and keep it pure....the problems you are seeing are the result of the initial hackjob.

When breeding outcrossing species, the idea is to SLOWLY move the genepool/ population towards a given ideal, over many gnerations by breeding all of the individuals that meet your goal, all the while rejecting and excluding individuals that don't meet the given goal from the breeding population. This is called recurrent selection.

Recurrent selection will fix the selected attributes over time, all the while providing enough genetic variation for the traits not under selection to prevent inbreeding depression, and still maintain enough genetic diversity for future down-line selection.

This is why it's impossible to create an 'IBL' in just a few years- those that you see advetised as such on these forums do not qualify as true IBL, other than that they were subject to inbreeding.

-Chimera

Click to expand...

Well said Chimera....too many people use the letters IBL(and F1 hybrid for that matter) like car manufacturers use GTI...

Ibl is an over used buzz/ marketing term mostly no doubt. For us the purpose of line breeding is more the preparation of 2 different p1 lines for crossing to form a semi stable f1. Much better to do the selection work before the mating of the p1 lines as apposed to line breeding the cross after the fact to refine it. I've seen many a breeder do the equivelent of glueing a rolex to the dash of a mercedes and releasing it as their own product called the molex.
Much respect
Moonunit

Chimera, could you repeat that please, like twice a day for the next year?. It needs to be said over and over again.

Sing it again man.

Yes strainwhore.

It's funny how threads like this, or ones discussing proper breeding terminology are either left in this forum or deleted, while others with little merit to breeding are placed in the "Breeder's Lab".... who is modding this place?

I thought the point of this forum was to educate, not advertise.
Can you say agenda?

-Chimera

We all know that certain breeders have an agenda to hype their own strains and sell a lot of seeds. Some folks just spend their whole life promoting elite clone only strains and crossing or selfinf with them, rather than exploring and utilizing the full potential of the genepool. I enjoy playing with land race strains ,as there is the potential of a dozen elites, each better than the last.

Be careful man.

Galileo was placed under arrest twice for trying to educate his fellow man. During his last trial,he tried to explain the need for enlightenment on issues involving the natural order. The prosecutor in the trial proclaimed "the righteous need no education,their truth is evident".

Coppernicus, Darwin, Ghandi. All would agree that there are times when the truth is not expedient and reality is a condition of perspective.

I farm as did my father and grandfather. For years, we have grown test crops for the state university and participated in. trials of mould resistant or repressed flowering tobacco and no-till or herbicide resistant corn strains. So many times I would follow the researchers through the 5 acre plots, to be told after review, to plow the trial under of what looked to me to be a good crop, all because some plants demonstrated growth anomolies, lethargy or some other unintened and unforseen genetic expression that the researcher concluded could not be propagated .
I never wanted to do it because they looked just fine to me.

I think sometimes cannibas researchers love thier offspring so much, they fail to recognize their pathology.

That's what I think anyway. Im sure others may disagree.

I think information is difficult to share for a lot of green guys, methods and tools too.
In this case people think it exist only one way to go to Rome : celebrity and domination for gain respect.

I farm as did my father and grandfather. For years, we have grown test crops for the state university and participated in. trials of mould resistant or repressed flowering tobacco and no-till or herbicide resistant corn strains. So many times I would follow the researchers through the 5 acre plots, to be told after review, to plow the trial under of what looked to me to be a good crop, all because some plants demonstrated growth anomolies, lethargy or some other unintened and unforseen genetic expression that the researcher concluded could not be propagated .
I never wanted to do it because they looked just fine to me.

Click to expand...

Your honesty show the first cause of the IBL depression. I must agree with you.
Offspring must be fully computed for a cold analysis in my opinion, if not the human nature is dominant. It's my way to Rome.

Green Fuel said:

Very interresting, for me an Inbreed line (IBL) is just a R&D from the same P1 with no outcross.

What think about that in this case ?


I think too, too many people mix IBl depression and bad selective pressure (luck management for me). Vigor is one trait among so many others.

Click to expand...

How do you start if you only have 1 mother plant to start with?

I have one female deep chunk that thanks to an incredible lack of vigor I have barely been able to keep in the stable. I do on the other hand have a very vigorous male GberryP from Memy that I would like to cross into about everything I have to add vigor, purple and potency............ although Deep Chunk is killer potent by itself...

Bump, to keep it at the top cause this is fascinating and I want to hear more how stable breeding practices really work.

I love Icmag for stuff like this!

I have to agree that the love most cannabis breeders have a love for the plant that makes them somewhat jaded when it comes to culling for selection.
We have worked alot of lines, enough now to select those to be culled, as apposed to those to be kept. Selecting and culling individuals(females) that have undesirable traits that we dont want in the line and breeding with the rest. Males we dont select from unless we can progeny test test them ( massive ammount of resources required, we have done it once on our best breeding line, 50 males selected by eye down to 5, then the 5 progeny tested. It took hundreds and hundreds of plants and about 2 years with the resources we had at the time). So when it comes to males use em all, just mix the collected pollen by shaking it all up together in a jar and hitting your females with it.
Having said that its also cool to heavily select and play around, using single female and male combos, just expect some serious bottle necks down the line if u continue to work it. U will however get some experience and perhaps some prime keepers no less. I get sick of hearing ppl talk about how small closet breeders are peeing in the genepool, thats bs. Imho its the bigger companies, reworking the same tired old lines, whittling down the same genetics year after year and spreading them en mass ( even using good numbers to select from its still the same old same old). A breeder has to start somewhere and hey what contains more genetic diversity, the same line that has been worked/ whittled away since the 70s - 80s by a big company using big selection numbers( most dont now anyways) or a closet hack with 100 unique landrace beans to select from and use. As long as one keeps a seed store of the genetics u use at every step u are not really diminishing anything, just refining your definition of the line whilst retaining its origional form in seed from p1 lines and every breeding step. So i say go for it to any who want to give it a shot, just dont spread it en mass, misrepresenting it as something it is not and u are doing no damage imho.
Much respect
Moonunit

This is an interesting discussion and one that is needed. I do want to emphasize that my comments are for those purposes and not as personal attack on anyone.

Althoug it is certanly not the only one, the strain Deep Chunk offers a perfect example of how a breeding situation can really get off track.
Clearly, those breeding the strain over time, care deeply about it and have continued to breed and cross it. Then for whatever reason, they recieve immense encouragement and praise by those surrounding them or here on the forums, so naturally they continue to breed it proudly. Love and encouragement is what we all seek.

A compounding problem to that is what i believe to be an obsession with preserving "landraces", perhaps at any cost. At one time the plant,(DC), was excellent, but has been mishandled during its life to the point that it has become genetically weak and is no longer the plant it started out to be. If an afghani farmer were to sow DC this spring for his crop he would be sorely disappointed by the outcome. Its my view there is no possibility of perserving the original strain, because it disappeared many generations ago.

The obsession with preserving a strain often overtakes the real goal of isolating and perserving the traits that the strain exhibits. Its my view that the traits expressed by a strain are often available in other plants that do not carry genetic problems..
For example, DC. What trait(s) is it that is specific and unobtainable in other plants?
Vigor? Yield? Potency? Disease or pest resistance? Someone would have to show me what those traits are that warrant the plant being continually bred and crossed into the gene pool.

Finally, I have a concern that inferior genes will get mixed into our gene pool with negative consequences, without anyone really knowing it. If today, we removed every cannabis strain that possessed NL, skunk or Blueberry, there wouldn't be many strains left and many strains would disappear that we had no idea those genes were even in the plant.

Just me talkin, and probably too much.
sb