Hollow stems, good or bad???

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

I have been growing in coco for last 2 years, and I am sick of it. Going back to flood and drain hydro now. Besides growing much faster, I have noticed that the stems are hollow like straws, while GG4 in coco grows very woody stems.

With the woody stems, I was getting very high success rates with clones. With hollow stems, I am losing about half turning to mush. Someone suggested using calcium supplement to get woodier stems.

Long time ago I heard hollow stems are more desirable for hydro, because nutrients can get to top faster. Is that true, or are woody stems better, or does it make no difference?

ElGringrow · Sep 25, 2016

It seems to vary strain to strain for me. The hollow stems letting the nutes get taken up faster sounds like myth to me.

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

ElGringrow said:
It seems to vary strain to strain for me. The hollow stems letting the nutes get taken up faster sounds like myth to me.

The only difference between the coco and hydro, is a stronger feed with hydro. Coco was getting 600 PPM or 1.2 EC, hydro gets 1000 PPM or 2.0 EC. Never needed to add Calcium before, and leaves do not show any deficiencies.

My only concern adding supplemental calcium is, I have read it can lock out other nutrients, if given too much.

Phaeton · Sep 25, 2016

I thought hollow stems were age dependent. I never thought to check if some strains got hollow earlier than others.

Dirt and rockwool have grown side by side off and on for years in this garden area. My personal plants are in 1 cm rockwool cubes and have outgrown identical clones grown in dirt 10 out of 10 times. The nutrient availability at the roots seems to outweigh variations in stem transport. Coco done right outgrowing my rockwool has also been shown.
If hollow stems are more efficient then the hollowness may be the result of better feeding rather than the cause.

Later down the road if you would be so kind as to start a similar thread with "Hollow stems" in the title and let us know if the diameter of stems that are hollow went up or down with the change.
I would certainly read that thread.

You made me curious but I cannot do the swap to satisfy the itch.

Ravenboy · Sep 25, 2016

Loc Dog said:
The only difference between the coco and hydro, is a stronger feed with hydro. Coco was getting 600 PPM or 1.2 EC, hydro gets 1000 PPM or 2.0 EC. Never needed to add Calcium before, and leaves do not show any deficiencies.

My only concern adding supplemental calcium is, I have read it can lock out other nutrients, if given too much.

difference between coco and hydro?

maybe i missed something along the way
if you are feeding salt based nutrients into a nutrition free media, is that not hydro?

is feeding coco salt based nutes NOT hydro but something other?

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

Ravenboy said:
difference between coco and hydro?

maybe i missed something along the way
if you are feeding salt based nutrients into a nutrition free media, is that not hydro?

is feeding coco salt based nutes NOT hydro but something other?

I know many love to refer to coco as hydro, but true hydro does not develop salt buildups, PH problems, and is not a home for bugs. I tried it for 2 years, and hate coco. I have had runoff 4 times the feed, and fed 6.2 PH with 4.8 runoff.

I am not here to debate semantics. The question is whether hollow stems or woody ones are better.

In the above quote, I was pointing out the difference between my last coco grow and hydro grow. Coco also requires much weaker feed, due to salt buildup.

GoatCheese · Sep 25, 2016

Here's what DJ Short apparently says about hollow stems in his book (which i haven't read personally) regarding male selection for breeding.

"..the next criterion for elimination, borrowed from michael starks' marijuana potency, involves stem structure. large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. backed by years of observation, hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production."
.
.
Many X18s i have been growing have hollow stems. I was actually quite surprised how many plants in the line do this.
Anyways, i have had no problems cloning these in Jiffy pucks (+clonex hormone gel) which i have kept in those plastic domes.
Jiffy pucks are sterile, so you can use them in hydro-grows without getting algae in the res.

mowood3479 · Sep 25, 2016

I like woodier stems for cloning as I've found like you that more of my clones mush off and die when they're hollow.
Idk how to control whether or not my cloning stock gets woody or hollow stems? Seems as tho growing in coco I get more hollow stems than I did in pro mix but idk might be my imagination

DJXX · Sep 25, 2016

hey Loc....get you some of the cloning powder from home depot or walmart it won't mush the hollow or fatter stems hardly at all.....and i clone the smaller stems with the powder too...the powder changed the whole cloning game for me...and i went back to Root riots and a dome...i have lost maybe 5 in 5 years.....hope this helps ya a lil..DJXX

sorry i can't answer the hollow or woody stems question...someone on here can.....

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

mowood3479 said:
I like woodier stems for cloning as I've found like you that more of my clones mush off and die when they're hollow.
Idk how to control whether or not my cloning stock gets woody or hollow stems? Seems as tho growing in coco I get more hollow stems than I did in pro mix but idk might be my imagination

I suck at growing in coco, and have always had woody stems. Hydro has been like straws, since I have switched back. That is why I am considering using coco for each mother, and go hydro for grow.

It is so much less work, just check and adjust res every day or two. The growth has been crazy quick with hydro. Like I said, i had major PPM and PH issues with coco, and never got two runs of GG4 to turn out the same, with coco.

Like I mentioned earlier. I have no desire to debate with coco lovers. If it works for you, that's great. I loathe it, and have spent 2 years trying to get it as consistent as Hydro.

mowood3479 · Sep 25, 2016

Ya man, I was just sharing my experience... I like coco it's been problem free for me so I stick with it. But if I was having more success doing it another way I'd change it up real quick. Different strokes for different folks n all that.
Wish I had some real info to provide u with... It seems to me I get hollow stems when things r growing fast and strong but it is kinda a bummer because instead of 95% strike rate with clones I get more like 80% with hollow stems... N I've lost whole trays before when leaving too much water in the rockwool initially.
Good luck loc

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

mowood3479 said:
Ya man, I was just sharing my experience... I like coco it's been problem free for me so I stick with it. But if I was having more success doing it another way I'd change it up real quick. Different strokes for different folks n all that.
Wish I had some real info to provide u with... It seems to me I get hollow stems when things r growing fast and strong but it is kinda a bummer because instead of 95% strike rate with clones I get more like 80% with hollow stems... N I've lost whole trays before when leaving too much water in the rockwool initially.
Good luck loc

Thanks!!!

Like I said, if it works for you, stick with it. For me it has been nightmare. Another problem I had with coir, was high humidity levels, from the amount of feed. Except for a mother plant, would never use coco again, and I have 50 pounds of bricks laying around.

Be Well!!

FoothillFarming · Sep 25, 2016

You guys are kidding me right?

Hallow stems = low Ca and Boron

That nonsense that Bog wrote couldn't be further off, I always wonder why people think he is a great breeder and worth quoting. The guy has made like 8 strains in 20 years.

What Bog observed is a common trait with cannabis. The more desirable strains are usually more Ca dependent, aka, harder to grow.

Loc Dog, if you can get a tissue sample. I bet you your Ca levels are below 65%, most likely below 60%. Where are you getting boron from? What are those levels at? Boron should be around 2.5 ppms.

I garentee if you up your Ca and Boron those stems will fill in, and your customers will thank you.

mowood3479 · Sep 25, 2016

FoothillFarming said:
You guys are kidding me right?

Hallow stems = low Ca and Boron

That nonsense that Bog wrote couldn't be further off, I always wonder why people think he is a great breeder and worth quoting. The guy has made like 8 strains in 20 years.

What Bog observed is a common trait with cannabis. The more desirable strains are usually more Ca dependent, aka, harder to grow.

Loc Dog, if you can get a tissue sample. I bet you your Ca levels are below 65%, most likely below 60%. Where are you getting boron from? What are those levels at? Boron should be around 2.5 ppms.

Good info. Thank u

mowood3479 · Sep 25, 2016

I wish I could get tissue samples done.. Mayb I could mail it to a friend in NorCal n have him send it in n then give me the results... Probably doable
I'm gonna try adding some more calcium to my fertigations... Idk where to get more boron from tho? I know there is a small amount in my base nutrient (pbp grow n bloom)

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

FoothillFarming said:
You guys are kidding me right?

Hallow stems = low Ca and Boron

That nonsense that Bog wrote couldn't be further off, I always wonder why people think he is a great breeder and worth quoting. The guy has made like 8 strains in 20 years.

What Bog observed is a common trait with cannabis. The more desirable strains are usually more Ca dependent, aka, harder to grow.

Loc Dog, if you can get a tissue sample. I bet you your Ca levels are below 65%, most likely below 60%. Where are you getting boron from? What are those levels at? Boron should be around 2.5 ppms.

That is what I have been trying to confirm. Someone suggested additional Ca, but was not sure. Old books on hydro claimed hollow stems were better. I feed the Entire GH Flora series. With OG's in coco, had Ca deficiency, but never with GG4. The GG4's do not show any leaf signs of Ca deficiency, just have hollow stems.

What should I add to hydro to supplement Ca. Have various Cal/Mag's. Should it be dolomitic lime? If so how much per gallon. Afraid of locking out other nutrients with too much Ca.

FoothillFarming · Sep 25, 2016

I have to be honest, I don't do hydro, or at least for a decade now. I use AEA's micropak and their Boron product. Borax will also supply Boron, about 11 g = 2ppms in soil. No idea how to transfer that over to hydro. I would think Boron sulfates and Ca sulfates (gysum) would work, but like I said, don't trust me when it come to hydro. Plant physiology on the other hand doesn't change, hallow stems = ca and B

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

FoothillFarming said:
I have to be honest, I don't do hydro, or at least for a decade now. I use AEA's micropak and their Boron product. Borax will also supply Boron, about 11 g = 2ppms in soil. No idea how to transfer that over to hydro. I would think Boron sulfates and Ca sulfates (gysum) would work, but like I said, don't trust me when it come to hydro. Plant physiology on the other hand doesn't change, hallow stems = ca and B

Thanks,

Added 1 ml per gallon of Cal/Mag, and will see what happens.

The book that said hollower stems for hydro, was from early 1970's.

aridbud · Sep 25, 2016

ElGringrow said:
It seems to vary strain to strain for me. The hollow stems letting the nutes get taken up faster sounds like myth to me.

Indeed, a myth. Just like being able to know if seeds are male or female by looking at them.

A lot of plants in the plant kingdom have hollow shafts.

Loc Dog · Sep 25, 2016

aridbud said:
Indeed, a myth. Just like being able to know if seeds are male or female by looking at them.

A lot of plants in the plant kingdom have hollow shafts.

The odd thing is that coco they are woody, and hydro they are hollow.

Hollow stems, good or bad???

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