Coots mix test results with fish compost

plantingplants · May 12, 2016

So here it is. This is coots' mix modified by shcrews. Here are the ingredients:

12.75 yards lava rock
12.75 yards peat*
12.75 yards fish compost
2 yards bu blend compost
250 lbs kelp meal
240 lb 4-3-0 crab meal
280 lbs gypsum
250 lbs oyster shell*
130 lbs neem cake
100 lbs alfalfa meal

1000 lbs glacial rock dust

Any input? I got an analysis from leadsled, and here is the action plan I drew up from lead's advice:

Flush with low sodium water to leach sodium (probably came from fish compost) and sulfur (which probably came from gypsum)*

Add spectrum extra for sodium.

Grow dutch white clover in pots, do not till in, to pull out excess.

Test water to make sure no excess sodium.*

Foliar weekly with agsil, Ca, mn, and mo, due to high Iron (from glacial rock dust), excess nitrate, and K/Ca saturation over 10%, which will impede micro uptake.

Here are my recommended amendments per yard:
3000*g -*Agricultural Lime. Calcium Carbonate. (Microna Ag lime*
91*g - Manganese (Mn) Sulfate**
9*g -*Copper*(Cu) Sulfate*Pentahydrate*(Blue)*
23*g -*Zinc*(Zn) Sulfate**
9*g - Borax (10% B)*
454 grams biochar.*
60 grams azomite
2.5 grams of cobalt sulfate per yard. .2 grams of sodium molybdate dihydrate per yard.

My combined K and sodium are just above 10% which may limit manganese, according to leadsled. Can anyone explain why that is? Does it have to do with the charge strength of those cations?

What do folks think about micronutrient forms? Glycine chelates? I'm tryin to avoid sulfates since it's already too high.

Does anyone know of a low or no sulfur and iron micronutrient blend? I have too much of those already. I think I 'll have to make it myself.

Also does anyone know why I would have balls of half composted grayish green manure in my soil? You would think Bu's blend would be fully composted?

milkyjoe · May 13, 2016

Have you had plants growing in this mix yet?

plantingplants · May 13, 2016

milkyjoe, thanks for stopping in. No I haven't. I sent off a sample right when I got it delivered.

I should mention that the amendment reccomendations are for 2 million pound acre slice soil. I haven't weighed mine yet but it will likely be around 40% lighter.

Also I don't know where all those asterisks came from.

plantingplants · May 13, 2016

Oh I have had a SSH x Sour Diesel in it for a month or so. It turned dark green (lotta nitrate in there) and is doing well.

orechron · May 13, 2016

Good job recognizing that your soil will likely weigh less than field soil. Those numbers are on target for clay. I would caution using the full dose of the micro sulfates. I've had good results with adding half initially, then two more, 25% doses at maybe 2-3 week intervals. I also wouldn't worry about the extra sulfur from the micro sulfates. It leaches and runs out of soil very easily and will come down below 100ppm in no time. I think it was Astera that also wrote that micro sulfates applications do well in high S soil.

Can't say how total K and Na limit Mn but Lead probably has read something that I haven't. In my experience Mn is displaced very easily. Out of all the micros I've been applying in the past year I've used manganese the most and its difficult to hit target levels and keep them there.

Glycine chelates are great but I'd only spend money on them for foliars. JH Biotech makes a glycine chelated micropak type product. Or you can get salute micros from AEA which aren't that expensive. Again, I would worry too much about the S levels.

That sucks about the manure clumps. Compost is so variable.

plantingplants · May 13, 2016

Thanks for your input, orechron. I think I'll wait a month to apply anything to the soil but in the meantime I'm going to dig around and find where astera said that. I wonder if you're mistaking sulfates for oxides-- in a thread where he expounded on forms of nutrients, he stAted that oxides are poorly available except in high sulfate soils. The sulfate converts the oxides into a soluble form (into a sulfate I assume?). I'll look into that but it seems like unfamiliar territory and like shcrews said, I can't have my whole season be a damn science experiment

I'll do some more research.

Are sulfates fine for foliar, too or should I spring for glycinate? I'd like to just get a premade foliar but they seem to all have iron which I'm too high with already, or lack one I need. I'm worried about mixing my own because don't they need to be in the proper ratios? I know sulfates are taken up through the same channels so Cu and Zn sulfate will compete, for ex., but will glycine chelates not compete with each other as well?

I don't know why a $275/yard composted cow shit would have uncomposted shit in it. I don't k now much about compost but that seems completely absurd.

milkyjoe · May 13, 2016

The Oly Mountain is composted 2 years so chances are it is not the problem. I would definitely suspect the BU and not use it again.

Second if you do it again do not use gypsum in Coot mix...he doesn't. This is a recent thing and leads to all that excess sulfate which is just going to leach your K. But then I would not use oyster shell either as it takes forever to break down and become available. I would use a combination of CaCO3 and CaSiO2.

But that does not help you now.

I would not worry about the sulfate. It is in a form that is going to combine with cations and leach out anyways. Which is why it is a problem...by the end of the year I would not be surprised if you don't have a slight k deficiency. So as far as the Na/K deal goes it should not be a problem. Definitely use spectrum extra though. Ideally you would like Na to be under 100 lbs per acre (Tainio)

Plants work just like soil. They have a certain holding capacity for cations with K being the one they will take up in excess (nova crop control). So when K is in excess some other cation has to be short. Maybe it will be Mn but I don't know that for a fact. It could be any other cation, Ca I would think. But maybe lead knows something.

The big problem with Mn that makes it so hard to get enough of in the soil is that it oxidizes into MnO easily and is then not plant available.

For foliar, glycine chelates form a neutral molecule so they do not compete with cations. That is how they get past the cuticle and is their main advantage. The one glycine product I do consider worth it is Ca. The reason is the plant apparently recognizes it as N which makes it much more mobile.

Anyways, don't worry about micro sulfates in the soil, go ahead and use them. Don't worry about a complete micro foliar package as all your P is going to make getting micros a big problem anyway. P actually combines with cation micros in the soil and forms insoluble compounds

And do not worry so much. Lots of people use mixes similar to this with decent results. It is just that when you start talking details it sounds bad. That oyster shell will become available when the microbes start working...in the meantime glycine chelated Ca spray is the way to go.

Plus do use PhotoMag for the Mo. You are going to have to work to convert all of that Nitrate to protein in the plant. Nitrate being the one anion the plant will take up in excess. Or you might just consider Mo Salute from aea so you don't block Ca uptake with Mg.

FoothillFarming · May 13, 2016

Bu compost is some of the best compost in the country........It wasn't the bu, and you should keep using it for sure.

Alfalfa clumps? Kelp clumps? You said they were gray/green right? Mixed with biochar?

Or the dozer just scooped some native soil while loading up your mix.

milkyjoe · May 13, 2016

In fact that tcec looks kind of suspiciously high. It could well be that the Mehlich III is measuring free Ca from the oyster shell. You might want to get the ammonium acetate test to see if that is an issue. If tcec is misreported it is going to throw off all calculations.

FoothillFarming · May 13, 2016

Very high in K also. That will be a problem IMO. I would remove 100% of that neem meal, and replace it with insect frass next time.

I notice more and more people are not paying for EWC anymore. Why is that? I know in my mix this year was purely because I couldn't source any, but if ordering from Grass Valley I would have added it in.

Switch out the glacier rock dust with Cascade Mineral Basalt. Much better blend IMO, and you wont have excesses.

milkyjoe · May 13, 2016

A word of caution about factoring in the weight of the soil especially for the major base cations...make damn sure you recalculate the tcec also if you do that. Here is Humphrey Davies explanation...

From a soil perspective.....

CEC refers to the number of negative sites, expressed in meq/100g, or how many cations it will hold per 100 grams of soil.

say your soil has a CEC of 10. It holds 10 meq/100 g of soil. So if all the sites were taken by Ca, that would means that 100 grams of soil could hold 200 mg of Ca. My point is, meq weight of calcium is constant.

Also when they refer to lb/acre, just view the "acre" term as 2 million lbs (the assumed density of field soil, 1 acre 6" deep weighs 2 millions lbs)

So into the wormhole even deeper...

Labs test a specific volume of the soil and assume it's density.

Labs take a set volume of your soil, they assume they're dealing with say 100 grams, when really they have say 25 grams. So if they say your CEC is 15, that means it can hold 15 meq/100 grams of soil. However, it's actually 15 meq/25 grams of soil, which in CEC would mean 60 meq/100 grams of soil.

Bottom line, the ratios they give you in your reports are correct, it's just that they assume your soil per weight hold less of everything than what it does. However in C:N tests they actually do take your density into consideration.

FoothillFarming · May 13, 2016

Having a test done without being weighed, and then the same sample being weighed, there was very little difference on my tests from Logan. I asked for retests when they didn't weigh some samples.

However, I always request my samples are dried and weighed.

MileHighGlass · May 13, 2016

Interesting test. Seems you are chasing the test results which will be relative depending on the lab you use. I haven't ran a test in 2 years, and my results just keep getting better.

These tests are not the end all be all. They are good for general use in field crops. The problem is the test suggestions is based of a certain "paradigm". So you must believe in that "paradigm" to apply the test results.

I liken it to religion, One lab is Christian, another lab is pagan, and another lab may be Buddhist.

I personally don't believe any one lab, and any one test result is the answer. Just like religion.

I also find it interesting that Coot's mix keeps coming up short for somepeople. Some people have great success with it, and others fail miserably. I am still trying to figure out when Coot got hoisted to demigod status.

Unfortunately it has spawned a slew of "growers" to spend a ton of money shipping "specialty" amendments across the Country.

To be fare Bu's is suppose to be great. I have never heard of anyone using it that had an issue with it. That being said I use cheap local compost in my soil. I do not use coot's mix, and I do not get soil tests. What I do goes against what all the "cool" kids are doing, but amazingly it seems to work.

plantingplants · May 13, 2016

Ok thanks milkyjoe,

Would something like AEA MicroPak be fine to apply? It has no Mg to impede Mn uptake. Plus it has all the other traces and no iron. I could mix it with Albion Ca right?

Is the ammonium acetate test another way of determining cec that won't mistake the free Ca? I have a $9 credit with LL so maybe I'll do that.

I'm not actually worried about any of this since shcrews ran it with just water. I'd rather err on the side of safety so with all this cec stuff in mind I'm going to be sparing with the amendments.

MileHighHorse,

j/k, we are all just doing whatever we think will get the best results. I'd rather keep it simple and cheap but I'm new so I'm just the apprentice mimicking what I see working. I have my suspicions about a handful of the ingredients in this soil mix but I'm certainly not going to change it my first try. I'd be pulling my hair out wondering the whole time if that one amendment I took out was the critical one!

FoothillFarming, it smelled like it. It's the only other compost besides the fish compost which is dark black and finished. I had big black balls of dark black fish compost, and wet balls of grayish green clayish feeling stuff that actually had seeds in it? They weren't alfalfa seeds. Unless rare earth accidentally scooped some other extra manure or ripped me off and just gave me cheap manure in place of bu's?

Microbeman · May 13, 2016

Mile High; Apparently I must spread some reps around before giving you more so I'll just give you big ups right here.

the test suggestions is based of a certain "paradigm". So you must believe in that "paradigm" to apply the test results.

Such truth in that.

Regarding what is called Coot's mix, it seems all over the place depending on whom is selling or mixing it up. Many seem to believe that such mixes are the definitive of living soil. Not so.

Things may have indeed changed but in my conversations with Coot about soil mixes, they were very basic, counting upon a 1/3rd each contribution of composted or worm digested organic matter, sphagnum peatmoss and drainage bolstered by a light compliment of amendments; kelp meal (feed grade), neem cake, rock/clay powders and a source of calcium (if not included in rock powders).

If I misspeak then please shoot me Coot.

This is a base for a growing medium which can become living. I do not believe there was any prescribed 'cooking' period. It begins coming to life with the addition of plants and other living things.

plantingplants · May 13, 2016

MicrobeMan, this mix is exactly as you described...

The only difference is the addition of alfalfa and crab, none of which contributed to unbalancing the soil (as far as I can tell).

As far as believing in a particular soil paradigm, what else is there to do besides hypothesize and work from there? When it stops working then something has to change. MileHigh has their own soil paradigm.

MileHighGlass · May 13, 2016

plantingplants said:
MicrobeMan, this mix is exactly as you described...

The only difference is the addition of alfalfa and crab, none of which contributed to unbalancing the soil (as far as I can tell).

As far as believing in a particular soil paradigm, what else is there to do besides hypothesize and work from there? When it stops working then something has to change. MileHigh has their own soil paradigm.

Most important thing is to read your plants. No test for that. Experience is the only way.

And yes everyone has their own paradigm.

Microbeman · May 13, 2016

plantingplants said:
MicrobeMan, this mix is exactly as you described...

The only difference is the addition of alfalfa and crab, none of which contributed to unbalancing the soil (as far as I can tell).

As far as believing in a particular soil paradigm, what else is there to do besides hypothesize and work from there? When it stops working then something has to change.

Right and sorry for any misunderstanding. I was pretty much just following Mile's post.

Good luck with your garden.

orechron · May 14, 2016

FoothillFarming said:
Bu compost is some of the best compost in the country........It wasn't the bu, and you should keep using it for sure.

How do you know this? I'm curious because I was looking into trying some.

FoothillFarming said:

Switch out the glacier rock dust with Cascade Mineral Basalt. Much better blend IMO, and you wont have excesses.

I second this recommendation

Click to expand...

MileHighGlass said:

Interesting test. Seems you are chasing the test results which will be relative depending on the lab you use. I haven't ran a test in 2 years, and my results just keep getting better.

These tests are not the end all be all. They are good for general use in field crops. The problem is the test suggestions is based of a certain "paradigm". So you must believe in that "paradigm" to apply the test results.

Belief is not required for these methods. People are trying to figure out how to grow healthier plants by customizing nutrient levels. Belief is different than knowledge. For example, I know that a soil with 10ppm Manganese will not stack flowers as well as a soil with 35ppm Mn. How? I test, then add micro sulfates based on that test...

I liken it to religion, One lab is Christian, another lab is pagan, and another lab may be Buddhist.

I personally don't believe any one lab, and any one test result is the answer. Just like religion.

Religion requires faith. Faith is not a route to knowledge. We are using science, empirical evidence.

I also find it interesting that Coot's mix keeps coming up short for somepeople. Some people have great success with it, and others fail miserably. I am still trying to figure out when Coot got hoisted to demigod status.

I agree with this. Coot has quite the following and celebrity status within the community. I think the success or failure with his mix has to do with the variability of the inputs and also keeping the mix watered perfectly or not. Compost is not all the same.

Unfortunately it has spawned a slew of "growers" to spend a ton of money shipping "specialty" amendments across the Country.

To be fare Bu's is suppose to be great. I have never heard of anyone using it that had an issue with it. That being said I use cheap local compost in my soil. I do not use coot's mix, and I do not get soil tests. What I do goes against what all the "cool" kids are doing, but amazingly it seems to work.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65863&pictureid=1597063&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65863&pictureid=1566051&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65863&pictureid=1597060&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=65863&pictureid=1593543&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Your plants look good but there are deficiencies, you could correct them if you knew what was in the soil...

Click to expand...

Microbeman said:

Mile High; Apparently I must spread some reps around before giving you more so I'll just give you big ups right here.

Such truth in that.

Regarding what is called Coot's mix, it seems all over the place depending on whom is selling or mixing it up. Many seem to believe that such mixes are the definitive of living soil. Not so.

Things may have indeed changed but in my conversations with Coot about soil mixes, they were very basic, counting upon a 1/3rd each contribution of composted or worm digested organic matter, sphagnum peatmoss and drainage bolstered by a light compliment of amendments; kelp meal (feed grade), neem cake, rock/clay powders and a source of calcium (if not included in rock powders).

If I misspeak then please shoot me Coot.

This is a base for a growing medium which can become living. I do not believe there was any prescribed 'cooking' period. It begins coming to life with the addition of plants and other living things.

If coot were participating in this discussion he would probably mock most of us. He has taken to instagram where he can censor the discussions on his page. He slams other people methods but doesn't post many pictures of his own plants. Apparently, they are not very impressive.

Click to expand...

MileHighGlass said:

Most important thing is to read your plants. No test for that. Experience is the only way.

Growing off of visual cues is really hard to do. If you can recognize slight micronutrient deficiencies by looking at your plants I congratulate you. Testing is the next best way, but we don't have sap analysis available to us yet.

And yes everyone has their own paradigm.

Click to expand...

FoothillFarming · May 14, 2016

orechron said:
FoothillFarming said:

Bu compost is some of the best compost in the country........It wasn't the bu, and you should keep using it for sure.

How do you know this? I'm curious because I was looking into trying some.

Click to expand...

I have used it in the past. I have called and asked about the product and received extremely good customer service which included a run down on what they feed their cows, and how they compost it in order to keep it consistent. Also, I have seen current soil tests done on both the compost, and their potting soil.....Both top class IMO. They love what they do and they know what their doing.

Coots mix test results with fish compost

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