Extreme Foxtailing of Tropical Sativas when Grown Indoors

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

As the title suggests this is about extreme foxtailing often seen on tropical sativas grown indoors.
I am not talking about some foxtailing here and there, what I mean is foxtails all over the place often in conjunction with other problems like never finishing, lower buds in the foxtails bleaching/wilting.

I hope it is OK to borrow a pic from ThaiBliss he posted in his great thread The Search For Trip Weed
View Image
I really wonder what the main causes are.

Some suspect too much (far) infra red light. But then LED lighting should theoretically help, as far as I am aware of, it doesn't.
High N levels can clearly increase this problem, but even with very low levels this can occure (as ThaiBliss proved in his thread).
Light intensity is mentiones too sometimes, although it seems that even with (too) high intensity this problem occures.
Temperatures seem to play a role too, not sure which though as even with perfect temps this seems to occure.
So the question pretty much remains unanswered, at least by me

Further factors I could imagine playing a role are:
Temperature fluctuations
Humidity levels
Light Spectrum
Lighting schedule
Watering schedule

Has anyone ever experimented with ethylene to assist ripening? Or maybe with other hormones? This might give a clue to the causes.

It could well be that the indoor plants produce more gibberellic acid during fower than the outdoor equivalents.
This would make sense as it is responsible for elongation as well as for the formation of male flowers. Male flowers often occure at similar times in flower (hermies) so this might be a clue yet the cause of elevated gibberellic acid levels remain unclear. THIS IS ALL JUST A HYPOTHESIS!

Looking forward to hearing your oppinions and experiences!

ZD

MJPassion · Jan 25, 2016

#1 answer is....
Genetics.

The environment, however, says which genes are turned on or off.

Pretty sure foxtailing is mostly a genetics issue rather than environmental.

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

Very true, that certainly plays the major role. But why do strains that lean towards foxtailing mainly exhibit this behaviour indoors, at least in this extreme form?

ZD

St. Phatty · Jan 25, 2016

ZanzibarDawa said:
Very true, that certainly plays the major role. But why do strains that lean towards foxtailing mainly exhibit this behaviour indoors, at least in this extreme form?

ZD

If they're growing differently than outdoors (more foxtailing indoors) it's an indicator, they're not happy with the light they're getting.

Maybe - the combination of metal halide and HPS helps.

Lester Beans · Jan 25, 2016

Some strains flowers are just foxtails spiraled together. That is just how they grow. Others will foxtail more if the light is not intense enough or the light cycle is incorrect.

Phaeton · Jan 25, 2016

If I remember Thai Stick correctly from the last years of the Viet Nam war the 'stick' part was because the long sparse and scraggly foxtail was wrapped around a stick and tied there with a piece of fiber. The skinny bud was too long and thin to stand on its own.

Those were a tropical Sativa grown outdoors in their ideal habitat producing nothing but foxtails.

When I ran a light testing room I spent three harvests with a foxtail prone Sativa using three different spectrum's, none eliminated the foxtail. I moved on.
Still, it was excellent smoke, the foxtails came to be considered part of the package.

St. Phatty · Jan 25, 2016

I think of it as sort of a natural Thai stick.

Just take a few piece of wispy super-Sativa airbud, wind a thread around them, or maybe a fiber of hemp, pulled from the stalk.

I like Haze influenced and Sativa strains, though usually with a bit of Indica back-draft to add some body depth.

Admitting the lack of bag appeal in dried Sativa buds that have broken up into bud bits and shake :woohoo:

It doesn't sound like much and when you show it to someone it's not super appealing.

Also, if you don't like Cannabis fox-tails, there is a good chance a pet bird will like them. My chickens love Cannabis, it's the only plant they eat all of.

So the fox-tails do have an use.

Right now I have no fox-tails but I dug up a few pictures

It's an interesting subject. I think as long as it's not from heat stress or light overdose, foxtails can be perfectly medicinal :woohoo:

That last one said caused by heat, I believe them.

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

St. Phatty said:
If they're growing differently than outdoors (more foxtailing indoors) it's an indicator, they're not happy with the light they're getting.

Maybe - the combination of metal halide and HPS helps.

Thanks for chiming in. That could make sense as there is (over the course of a day) less red spectrum light in the tropics as sunrise and sunset happen very quick.
Have you tried the combo HPS/MH vs just HPS?

ZD

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

Lester Beans said:
Some strains flowers are just foxtails spiraled together. That is just how they grow. Others will foxtail more if the light is not intense enough or the light cycle is incorrect.

Good points, so would you presume that given correct light cycle and intensity it should behave just as outdoors?

ZD

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

Phaeton said:
If I remember Thai Stick correctly from the last years of the Viet Nam war the 'stick' part was because the long sparse and scraggly foxtail was wrapped around a stick and tied there with a piece of fiber. The skinny bud was too long and thin to stand on its own.

Those were a tropical Sativa grown outdoors in their ideal habitat producing nothing but foxtails.

When I ran a light testing room I spent three harvests with a foxtail prone Sativa using three different spectrum's, none eliminated the foxtail. I moved on.
Still, it was excellent smoke, the foxtails came to be considered part of the package.

Thanks a lot for sharing this great info! This is the experience I am lacking. Sadly wasn't even born when Thai Stick was around.
Would you mind elaborating on your lighting experiments? Did you see any wilting/bleaching on the lower (older) parts of the foxtails? For how long did you flower her?
Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions!

ZD

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 25, 2016

St.Phatty, thanks for the great pics!

I like the sativas too and I am quite intolerant when it comes to couch lock. Though narcotic i.e. more of a mental, not physical sort of couch lock is ok at times.

What do you mean by light overdose? Too much IR spectrum, thus causing heat stress or the bleaching topskind of too much light like LEDs like to give if not careful?

ZD

Granger2 · Jan 26, 2016

I grew Barney's Tangerine Dream once. At about 9 weeks, I made a nute tea to which I added 1 TBL of Nutritional Yeast flakes to 5 gal. tea. This is not a lot of N, but it is N. The buds were pretty tight for a sativa till I gave them the tea. They totally foxtailed. Lay off the N. Good luck. -granger

stoned-trout · Jan 26, 2016

no n for you,, nute natzi,, I don't mind foxtails but they sure dont add to bag appeal...yeehaw ....bump...my bird never refused any weed or seed...

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 26, 2016

Granger2 said:
I grew Barney's Tangerine Dream once. At about 9 weeks, I made a nute tea to which I added 1 TBL of Nutritional Yeast flakes to 5 gal. tea. This is not a lot of N, but it is N. The buds were pretty tight for a sativa till I gave them the tea. They totally foxtailed. Lay off the N. Good luck. -granger

Yep, a tad too much N is an instant bad hair day for them :woohoo:

stoned-trout said:
[URL="https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=51779&pictureid=1328466&thumb=1"]View Image[/URL] no n for you,, nute natzi,, I don't mind foxtails but they sure dont add to bag appeal...yeehaw ....bump...my bird never refused any weed or seed...

Well, i'm not too worried about bag appeal, seem to be pretty much like your bird in that respect

ZD

Dr.King · Jan 26, 2016

From my experience it is getting the feeding timing down correctly. One also needs to be running atleast 11/13 if not 10/14 for anything longer than 20 weeks. This really matters in terms of a tropical Sativa filling in nicely, swelling up instead of continuously foxtailing/revegging. Some genetics however will probably always foxtail like the most known being Thai Stick. Thai Stick back in the 80's where long stalks of huge thick resin dripping foxtailing buds wrapped and tied around a stick. Down in Panama back then they had the purest red bud, like candy red color.

Takes some nutrients feed rescheduling but it can be done indoors. This was Ace's Oldtimers' Haze 24 week pheno I did. My holy grail without question. Under my 400 watt HPS, wish I had a 1k :biggrin:

.

Dropped Cat · Jan 27, 2016

Dr.King said:
From my experience it is getting the feeding timing down correctly. One also needs to be running atleast 11/13 if not 10/14 for anything longer than 20 weeks. This really matters in terms of a tropical Sativa filling in nicely, swelling up instead of continuously foxtailing/revegging. Some genetics however will probably always foxtail like the most known being Thai Stick. Thai Stick back in the 80's where long stalks of huge thick resin dripping foxtailing buds wrapped and tied around a stick. Down in Panama back then they had the purest red bud, like candy red color.

Takes some nutrients feed rescheduling but it can be done indoors. This was Ace's Oldtimers' Haze 24 week pheno I did. My holy grail without question. Under my 400 watt HPS, wish I had a 1k .

View Image

View Image

That is brilliant, my narrow leaf stuff foxtails more in extemes
hot or cold, I have had buds from Zamaldelica that were tight
and dense in mild grows.

Bag appeal? Shut up

ZanzibarDawa · Jan 28, 2016

Dr.King said:
From my experience it is getting the feeding timing down correctly. One also needs to be running atleast 11/13 if not 10/14 for anything longer than 20 weeks. This really matters in terms of a tropical Sativa filling in nicely, swelling up instead of continuously foxtailing/revegging. Some genetics however will probably always foxtail like the most known being Thai Stick. Thai Stick back in the 80's where long stalks of huge thick resin dripping foxtailing buds wrapped and tied around a stick. Down in Panama back then they had the purest red bud, like candy red color.

Takes some nutrients feed rescheduling but it can be done indoors. This was Ace's Oldtimers' Haze 24 week pheno I did. My holy grail without question. Under my 400 watt HPS, wish I had a 1k .

View Image

View Image

Wow, that OTH looks really delicious! Whatever you did to that lady, she really liked it. I bet you wrote a smoke report somewhere, care to point me in the direction?
What is your take on the wilting/bleaching issue on the lower parts of long foxtails?

ZD

yoss33 · Feb 9, 2016

Congratulations for the thread, ZanzibarDawa :tiphat:

I myself have pondered on this topic, though I haven't considered some of the factors you suggest. Foxtailing indoors is only a part of the complex of differences in flowering in- and outdoors, together with the leafier buds, sturdier leaves and stems, quicker maturation, earthier smell, etc. that I observe outdoors. All factors are involved here.

My speculation is that day-night temperature fluctuation plays an important role with foxtailing, or more specifically - the presence of a cold (night) period. Plants grow more compact in cold weather. Perhaps without a cold period, some hormone responsible for reacting to cold and limiting stretching will not be produced.
I have seen foxtailing indoors with plants grown in soil (same food as outdoors), grown both under HPS (many reds) and strong cold-white LEDs (many blues), so it doesn't seem that light spectrum is the cause, unless UV-B is involved.
The only time that I have seen foxtailing outdoors was a quite extreme sativa at the balcony of a friend, where temperatures don't drop so low in the nights. And no - even the purest Hazes and Thais don't foxtail in my outdoors, but this doesn't mean they will not foxtail in the tropics where it doesn't get as cold in the nights as at 45 degrees away from the equator in October and November.

Weird · Feb 9, 2016

temps, feed, light intensity, I have found amount of daylight effects time to maturation

Collembola · Feb 10, 2016

yes as said myriad of factors.

light intensity / spectrum / nutrients / temperature / differential / water.

i.e. "environment" broad term.

i think alot of it, barring indoor management is spectrum of UV-B (?), being most intense on the equator at altitude (?) i think.

...then taking them strains and running them under hps not good etc.

UV supplementation in flowering anecdotally (dunno about science), "increases psychoactivity" allegedly (which cam be read as "helps plants reach potential" imho)

if you want plants to foxtail, feed them high nitrogen and low lumen intensity in the red spectrum easiest method, i think (barring being really stupid)

Extreme Foxtailing of Tropical Sativas when Grown Indoors

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