ZanzibarDawa
Member
Thanks. Have you got any personal experience with indoor hermies vs outdoor? Guess most people don't run the same clones in and out...so anything would be really helpful!
ZD
Extreme Foxtailing of Tropical Sativas when Grown Indoors
- Thread starter ZanzibarDawa
- Start date
Thanks. Have you got any personal experience with indoor hermies vs outdoor? Guess most people don't run the same clones in and out...so anything would be really helpful!
ZD
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I've studied foxtailing a bit and have reached some conclusions. there's many things people call foxtailing and some of it is just bud structure. like the way gg#4 looks for instance with the little knobs all over. some people say that's foxtails. not me. when i'm saying foxtail's i'm talking about like the pic on the first post. and pretty much all the rest of the pics in this thread you guys have posted so far I think. abnormal structure growth = foxtails to me.
so a few things cause foxtails in order of frequency my list is.
too much nitrogen late flower
too little magnesium early flower
general overfeeding
lock outs/too cold/too wet
pests damage to leaves / roots
heat/temperature swings
light fluctuations/ light leaks
genetics
I've grown a lot of random sativa's and crosses (YAY! bagseed) and I've rarely seen foxtails to be down to genetics. usually it's nitrogen introduced too late into flower. that time when the first set of pistils starts dying and they are making more (second flush of flowers) and swelling. adding a high dose of nitrogen at this point will most of the time if not always get you foxtails within a week.
that's what's shown in the pics yoss posted of his outdoor vs indoor grow. the indoor grow has way too much nitrogen as you can see by the deep green leaves and the small single rounded leaves growing out of the top of the buds. like reveg leaves. I think all the nitrogen causes the plant to resurge in growth like it's back in stretch again and starts stretching out and growing more stems and leaves than it's making new flowers. if let gone long enough it will eventually finish ripening after it uses up all the nitrogen and flowers again. the buds usually come out looking like what I see a lot of "sour diesel" that I have got over the years. like a buncha little balls on a stick, or like a bunch of dried up centipede's glued together or something lol. i'm sure at least one of you knows what i'm talking about right?
that's the highest influence I've seen, plain old too much nitrogen.
sometimes it's too little magnesium early in flower, a lot of people mistake this for too little nitrogen, then they up the nitrogen and the yellowing goes away some, but the mag def is still there. you've all seen it. those cupped up leaves like a taco everyone thinks is heat stress. the pic in the first post is a good illustration of this type of foxtails. it's caused by the stretching of the branches without the filling in of the buds. they don't have enough magnesium to process the nitrogen and phosphorous. (that's the way I understand the relation ship) you can see the leaves are all yellow like a nitrogen def, but they are slow to fall off, and some are dried up and brown but still on the plant. that's phos, and mag def without nitrogen def just turns the leaves yellow without them falling off. plain old nitrogen def the whole plant gets yellow even and the leaves start falling off by the dozens as the new shoots rob the rest of the plant for nutrients. this is my understanding from observations and what I've read in books take it or leave it.
sometimes I see foxtailing due to lockouts and general hunger all around like when you feed a weak feeding. that one looks most similar to genetic foxtailing. you can see it in the pic dropped cat posted of his zamaldelicia. this look comprises of like 4 categories. cold roots, like he had during his grow locks out phos and pot and a lot of micros. well it's not really causing a lockout, plants just uptake nutes at a slower rate the colder they get. like people
looks like you were feeding the normal amount of food but they just wouldn't grow right? cold roots, wet roots, underfeeding, root rot all can cause this type of foxtail which looks pretty similar to genetic foxtails. lots of flowers but all stringy and hairy looking (for me any way).
sometimes I see foxtails due to heat but it's usually just about always isolated to the buds closest to the bulb. i'm not even sure if it's the heat causing it or some other form of radiation. it's not consistent on all buds that are near a bulb. sativa, hybrid or indica. ambent temps alone certainly wont cause foxtails. my grows are notorious (maybe? a guy can wish) for being "too hot" to grow in. i'm talking constant air temps at 80+ 90 degrees at the level of slightly above the lamp is not uncommon. almost the norm. the only time I see foxtails without the aid of the things I've already listed above it's because a bud is literally right against the hps bulb.
I didn't write it up there (or did I with a ghost edit? muahahaha) but I've recently observed another possible cause for foxtails but I need more research to be sure. I ran the same cut under mH and HPS and under hps the structure of the buds was radically different. but I was also defoliating that time so it's inconclusive if the stress from the defoliation caused the foxtails or simply the change in light spectrum from mostly all blue and white to mostly all red and yellow.
what else...looks at list... bugs, roots issues, I guess can go under general stresses and be like an amendment to the thing I said about cold wet roots. pest damage to roots and leaves will have the same effect of limiting nutrient uptake so as to make it look like deficiencies which can sometimes cause plants to stretch out and start to foxtail. but not like the too much nitrogen foxtails which is sort of like a reveg action but the not enough food foxtails look like new flowers are just growing but instead of getting fat they are growing upwards one on top of each other not side by side.
lastly on my list...oh wait light leaks...
sometimes light leaks cause plants to reveg some, but it's always been isolated to the areas exposed to light and it's always been (in my case anyway) there has to be a strong light that is constantly hitting a spot when it's supposed to be dark. that spot will start to reveg from the light it's getting while it's supposed to be sleep. might also hermy in that spot if the plant susceptible.
lastly genetics. it's rare to see a plant that foxtails just from genetics. those make me oohhh and ahhh because they're pretty. everything is even and uniform even though it's all foxtails. they're ordered, it's how it's supposed to be. when I see foxtails when the rest of the bud is uniform however i'm all like ugh that's gross.
anyway that's my opinion on foxtails and what causes em. if I referenced you as an example no hard feeling just using your illustrations, not trying to diss or nothing. no one's perfect everytime, least of all me.
so a few things cause foxtails in order of frequency my list is.
too much nitrogen late flower
too little magnesium early flower
general overfeeding
lock outs/too cold/too wet
pests damage to leaves / roots
heat/temperature swings
light fluctuations/ light leaks
genetics
I've grown a lot of random sativa's and crosses (YAY! bagseed) and I've rarely seen foxtails to be down to genetics. usually it's nitrogen introduced too late into flower. that time when the first set of pistils starts dying and they are making more (second flush of flowers) and swelling. adding a high dose of nitrogen at this point will most of the time if not always get you foxtails within a week.
that's what's shown in the pics yoss posted of his outdoor vs indoor grow. the indoor grow has way too much nitrogen as you can see by the deep green leaves and the small single rounded leaves growing out of the top of the buds. like reveg leaves. I think all the nitrogen causes the plant to resurge in growth like it's back in stretch again and starts stretching out and growing more stems and leaves than it's making new flowers. if let gone long enough it will eventually finish ripening after it uses up all the nitrogen and flowers again. the buds usually come out looking like what I see a lot of "sour diesel" that I have got over the years. like a buncha little balls on a stick, or like a bunch of dried up centipede's glued together or something lol. i'm sure at least one of you knows what i'm talking about right?
that's the highest influence I've seen, plain old too much nitrogen.
sometimes it's too little magnesium early in flower, a lot of people mistake this for too little nitrogen, then they up the nitrogen and the yellowing goes away some, but the mag def is still there. you've all seen it. those cupped up leaves like a taco everyone thinks is heat stress. the pic in the first post is a good illustration of this type of foxtails. it's caused by the stretching of the branches without the filling in of the buds. they don't have enough magnesium to process the nitrogen and phosphorous. (that's the way I understand the relation ship) you can see the leaves are all yellow like a nitrogen def, but they are slow to fall off, and some are dried up and brown but still on the plant. that's phos, and mag def without nitrogen def just turns the leaves yellow without them falling off. plain old nitrogen def the whole plant gets yellow even and the leaves start falling off by the dozens as the new shoots rob the rest of the plant for nutrients. this is my understanding from observations and what I've read in books take it or leave it.
sometimes I see foxtailing due to lockouts and general hunger all around like when you feed a weak feeding. that one looks most similar to genetic foxtailing. you can see it in the pic dropped cat posted of his zamaldelicia. this look comprises of like 4 categories. cold roots, like he had during his grow locks out phos and pot and a lot of micros. well it's not really causing a lockout, plants just uptake nutes at a slower rate the colder they get. like people
looks like you were feeding the normal amount of food but they just wouldn't grow right? cold roots, wet roots, underfeeding, root rot all can cause this type of foxtail which looks pretty similar to genetic foxtails. lots of flowers but all stringy and hairy looking (for me any way). sometimes I see foxtails due to heat but it's usually just about always isolated to the buds closest to the bulb. i'm not even sure if it's the heat causing it or some other form of radiation. it's not consistent on all buds that are near a bulb. sativa, hybrid or indica. ambent temps alone certainly wont cause foxtails. my grows are notorious (maybe? a guy can wish) for being "too hot" to grow in. i'm talking constant air temps at 80+ 90 degrees at the level of slightly above the lamp is not uncommon. almost the norm. the only time I see foxtails without the aid of the things I've already listed above it's because a bud is literally right against the hps bulb.
I didn't write it up there (or did I with a ghost edit? muahahaha) but I've recently observed another possible cause for foxtails but I need more research to be sure. I ran the same cut under mH and HPS and under hps the structure of the buds was radically different. but I was also defoliating that time so it's inconclusive if the stress from the defoliation caused the foxtails or simply the change in light spectrum from mostly all blue and white to mostly all red and yellow.
what else...looks at list... bugs, roots issues, I guess can go under general stresses and be like an amendment to the thing I said about cold wet roots. pest damage to roots and leaves will have the same effect of limiting nutrient uptake so as to make it look like deficiencies which can sometimes cause plants to stretch out and start to foxtail. but not like the too much nitrogen foxtails which is sort of like a reveg action but the not enough food foxtails look like new flowers are just growing but instead of getting fat they are growing upwards one on top of each other not side by side.
lastly on my list...oh wait light leaks...
sometimes light leaks cause plants to reveg some, but it's always been isolated to the areas exposed to light and it's always been (in my case anyway) there has to be a strong light that is constantly hitting a spot when it's supposed to be dark. that spot will start to reveg from the light it's getting while it's supposed to be sleep. might also hermy in that spot if the plant susceptible.
lastly genetics. it's rare to see a plant that foxtails just from genetics. those make me oohhh and ahhh because they're pretty. everything is even and uniform even though it's all foxtails. they're ordered, it's how it's supposed to be. when I see foxtails when the rest of the bud is uniform however i'm all like ugh that's gross.
anyway that's my opinion on foxtails and what causes em. if I referenced you as an example no hard feeling just using your illustrations, not trying to diss or nothing. no one's perfect everytime, least of all me.
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possibly. the seeds fall out of foxtailed buds more readily than normally tight growth buds.
ZanzibarDawa
Member
Thanks so much for this elaborate answer, lots of good info!
The Mg deficiency was new to me, very interesting. So if I understand you correctly, any kind of stress works toward foxtailing and possibly could be all that is needed to drive out the foxes.
The more I delve in to this the deeper the rabbit hole gets
. I could well imagine that the key is somewhere in the realm of lighting.Two things I really want to find out are:
1 do clones foxtail more indoors than outdoors when grown in identical containers, reasonably similar temps provided?
2 Are clones more likely to hermie indoors under forementioned conditions?
I'd also really like to know if anyone has tried late repotting, like when the pistils of the 1st flush wilt (obviously one could not use hot soil!).
I guess that the foxtailing indoors is triggered by a hormonal imbalance (too many auxins and/or gibberellic acid), it might be interesting to see if added ethene has any positive effect. For a start putting a few apples in the grow room would probably do.
ZD
I would tend to agree with this list in that same order almost, nicely done. I would add Light Intensity as number two on that list. The Ace Green Haze 28 week pheno I ran really swelled up at the end. Running Sativas under a single 400 watt system doesn't really get the job done like a 1k system. I've been going with Leds as they pump out a lot of light for less wattage plus most light spectrum's.
Here's Ace's Green Haze. Slowly tapping off nitrogen late in flower and switching to 10/14 is the only thing that finished up the GH. High/taste and smell where stellar. 12/12 straight from seed and this gal yielded a nice solid 7 oz's.
18 weeks in flowering.
One of the two main tops.
Main top 28 weeks harvest.
2 weeks cured.
ZanzibarDawa
Member
Well, you obviously know what you are doing, those look very dense for that kind of genetics! Do the LEDs have an influence on foxtailing too or not? I'd love to hear what NPK ratios you feed those ladies in the different stages of their life cycle.
ZD
Interesting thread.
I´ve grown foxtailing strains twice. They were both Sativadominat longtime flowering hybrids/crosses
grown from regular seeds.
Normally I run 3-6 different starins at the same time, try to reach the same flowering period.....Same conditions, nutes, light, Water etc...
Well, pics of my latest foxtail. Not extreme.
86 days flowering:
P
I´ve grown foxtailing strains twice. They were both Sativadominat longtime flowering hybrids/crosses
grown from regular seeds.
Normally I run 3-6 different starins at the same time, try to reach the same flowering period.....Same conditions, nutes, light, Water etc...
Well, pics of my latest foxtail. Not extreme.
86 days flowering:
P
#DoYouEvenFoxtailBro?
P75 x OGKB S1#3
Genetics
this is a great example of weed that looks great and smokes like 'mersh
P75 x OGKB S1#3
Genetics
this is a great example of weed that looks great and smokes like 'mersh
Phineas Freak
Member
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man these pics give me nightmares. ran a sativa few rounds ago that looks just like that. couldn't get it to reveg it just kept foxtailing and flowering.
earthwyrms
Active member
do you mean the P75 x OGKB S1#3 ?
is it good smoke and the last picture is a different strain?
O
OG Tree Grower
The best way I found to control it in pure sativas is less heat and less nitrogen after week 4 flower. Everyone else touched on the other aspects , mh and hps combo didn't help me much if any.
