a 'true' male from S1 seeds?

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

this is retrod ground, other threads posted on the topic but i got what i got
and it's driving a little crazy
now as i understand it there is no such thing as a true male from S1 heritage
been in flower for 3 weeks, all balls, no pistils
searched it thoroughly high and low with a loop, pistil bare so far
pic is in signature, but no sex closeups yet
i'll grant you i'm no pro, but not a rookie either
any other similar experiences welcome not to mention advice, i really needed a non male at this time, a hermie i could have lived with

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

either its female or its not an S1 or the S1 mother was actually a father reversed.
those are the only 3 options I'm afraid, regardless of the experience others have had, everything falls into one of those 3.

wantaknow · Mar 5, 2013

could have been a bean from a different batch of seeds?

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

i'm very confidant in it being an S1, i don't grow multiple plants
based upon my setup, time of year, location, it couldn't have been any other pollen than the original hermie i had
i have grown other seeds of this batch and did get some femmes before this
but thanks for the reply, sanity check i guess

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

wantaknow said:
could have been a bean from a different batch of seeds?

the chance of error is always there, i'd say no, i don't have much in seeds and this was a big lot of its own
the traits from the parent are right, i.e. its leaf structure, very distinctive

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

dont forget that you get male hermies as well as female hermies. a male hermie pollinating itself would produce females and males. some of which may also hermie. In that case pick option 3 from the above.

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

GMT said:
dont forget that you get male hermies as well as female hermies. a male hermie pollinating itself would produce females, males and supermales. some of which may also hermie. In that case pick option 3 from the above.

that has crossed my mind, all i can say the parent didn't look like a self fertile male
which is supposed to be quite rare from what i've read

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

given that most growers will cull their males at first sight, it doesn't surprise me there are fewer recorded cases, but there's no genetic reason for male sex to be more stable than female sex. A faulty gene is a faulty gene. The extent of the problem in expression is so variable that looks alone aren't sadly reliable. When you examine the outcome, ie the growth of the offspring it seems pretty clear what the situation was.

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

GMT said:
given that most growers will cull their males at first sight, it doesn't surprise me there are fewer recorded cases, but there's no genetic reason for male sex to be more stable than female sex. A faulty gene is a faulty gene. The extent of the problem in expression is so variable that looks alone aren't sadly reliable. When you examine the outcome, ie the growth of the offspring it seems pretty clear what the situation was.

short of genetic tests, which are not in my budget, i'd wonder what the standard is for judging male/female hermie is
from what i've seen posted, if a plant looked mostly feminine, well that's a female hermie
which i will grant you, may not be a perfect test
i'd be hard put to describe to describe the parent as male dominant, it looked like a female
i did keep a grow log for the record, not that the pics are all that detailed
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=191917

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

sigh, you've given me some food for thought here GMT
as it stands, i've seen 2 femmes, 1 hermie, and 1 male(apparently) so far
i thought i had a batch of feminized and possibly crummy hermie seeds
now i don't know what the hell i have

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

Edit, its now known, what I said here is impossible

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

GMT said:
lol, add some super males ie YY to that list and you do know what you have

tried to rep you but that's overflowing, you've been a huge help here
went back to the old grow log and saw that the male parts popped out a bit sooner than the pistils, not much, but that does seem to make some sense now
i guess i'll let the male(?) go a while longer just to be sure no pistils appear, that and probably should save some pollen
i haven't done too much reading on self fertile males, did see that bit from DJ on them

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

I'm gonna get shot at for saying this, but don't take that stuff from DJ too seriously.

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

actually, thinking about it, it inheritted that Y from its father, which we know was faulty, I'd be fascinated if it didn't hermie on you. let me know please, pm me if you remember.

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

i'll cautiously concur with you on that DJ quote, not that i have any credentials to do so
best of my memory, he put the chance of seeing a self fertile male at something like 1 in a million
memory may be flawed here, but such a number seemed to be infeasible
i know he's great breeder, but he's seen a million males, and watched them closely? don't think so
i will update you on what i see

Mate Dave · Mar 5, 2013

You have cannabis seed igrowone, from my experience it is likely to be regular, not truly feminised.

The process in which seed is made determines the outcome from the gametes involved in a cross, thus showing the expressions available in the progeny.

The proof is in your seed, grow it find out.

You can't describe a plant as male dominant.

A known pollen source is not a known male plant, but in fact an individual grain of pollen from a known stigma, it's the same for the individual calyx/ovary.

There are many variable possibilities, if the cross that made your seed combined a distant, recessive pair of inter-sex linked (Traits) then the seed will show it, plants with those genes will bred true for the inter-sex trait.

Grow your seed and find out you don't need genetic tests!

What are the dominant flower clusters on the individual plants?

Are the (Morphological) reproductive units rare occurrence or prominent are they localised or scattered?

If so, how are they arranged, how do they form, are they a modified flower formation or true units?

How can environmental conditions alter the differing flower formation concentration?

The answers to these questions will help you to determine the morphological status of the flower units displayed on individual plants, you need much greater seed numbers to to determine the outcome or the population of a cross by testing/looking at variation within the population of the plants.

Without knowing the predictability of the gametophyte of the plants in a cross it is hard produce excellent seed.

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

thanks for the thought Mate Dave, this topic is warping my brain a bit
on the genetic test, that was more about a rhetorical point, how the hell do you know what you have?
growing will certainly do that, but that's an expensive enterprise
i thought i had a bunch of feminized seeds, at least as the term is usually understood
maybe not the best feminized, but i thought i could get at least a mostly female offspring
big thing for a micro grower like me
i was going to crack another of these seeds, but now i'm wary, not looking like the odds i thought i had

GMT · Mar 5, 2013

dont sweat it, its very unlikely errors cropped up in both chromosomes in the same plant. treat them like a regular male female line but bin the males as soon as they show.

SmokeTrees · Mar 5, 2013

It happens, like 1in 500 . Both greyskull and growtech have found true males in fem beans

igrowone · Mar 5, 2013

GMT said:
dont sweat it, its very unlikely errors cropped up in both chromosomes in the same plant. treat them like a regular male female line but bin the males as soon as they show.

i have seen in some posts that cannabis is better described as a xxyy kind of affair as opposed to xy not sure how true that is, other than the 'grayness' that seems to accompor at least it's not quite any the cannabis sex trait but simplistically, i'd expect an xy selfer to have a 1 in 4 good female, 1 in 4 super male, and 2 in 4 of something else not sure what i mean by something else, but that's just an off the cuff guess

a 'true' male from S1 seeds?

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