Living organic soil from start through recycling

Gascanastan · Dec 1, 2012

greenmatter said:
the fish meal from Down To Earth has an NPK of 10-4-0, but their fish bone meal has an NPK of 3-16-0, these two products certainly don't look or smell the same.

i know somebody more qualified than me will chime in, but i would say that fish meal and fish bone meal are not the same thing

check gascan's soil recipe ....... he has both of them in there, so i would think they are not interchangeable.

Two separate products from the same fish....imagine that~

Fish bone replaces mammalian bone meal and fossilized bat guano....as well as the rock phosphates.

Fish meal is like the replacing high nitrogen bat guano or mammalian blood meal.

Mammalian by-products are questionable when it comes to being 'organic' in the common sense of the term.

Not only are they fucking gross...but those animals are exposed to all kinds of funky shit,including regional pesticides,internal pesticides,medications,hormones,etc.,etc,... Just becuase they died doesn't make the blood or bone 'organic'.

There are far better sources than bone and blood....that stuff's just shitty gunky ass by-product.

Gascanastan · Dec 1, 2012

ClackamasCootz said:
BlueJayWay

Only in this context - the first references that I looked at on using Aloe Vera juice were from Australia and New Zealand garden boards. The amount discussed was 3%

I cut that in half, 1.5%, and that worked out to be 1.92 oz. per gallon. I rounded up to 2 oz. (1/4 cup)

I was getting a huge benefit at 1.5% and I never bumped it up to test if there would be 'more benefit' at higher levels which there may well be. Or not.

LOL

CC

Seems I reached a pinnacle w/results. From my observational mind..... 2 tablespoons per gallon of foliar 3-4 times a weeks was the maximum I could do and expect results.

Yet I started watering w/it like Blue jay and the results,although not as dramatic,were impressive. Somewhere around 1 cup of juice per 5 gallons.

But mannnnn..that got expensive...which got me sourcing aloe plants to stick in extra pots around the house.

The dried powder looks to be a good deal though....

BlueJayWay · Dec 1, 2012

Yup, exactly, expensive, two gallons a month EASY, now if I stuck with the same amounts and switched to aloe powder extract that brings it from $60 to $10 a month, that's a no brainer.

I need to buy some aloe plants for indoor, I want to try rubbing my cutting in the fillet before I insert it in the plug.

Gascanastan · Dec 1, 2012

Hawaiian/Cotton Candy x Pure Kush S1
Massive yields...this flower was over two ounces...unfortunately is was PM susceptible...and was kicked out.

Velvet Rush....what I called the 'small' pheno.....is more the indica pheno.

TO x BMR...the first female from the first pollination. Was made using only one phenotype of BMR male...which was abandoned and another pollination was done for the second batch using both phenotypes of BMR male which produced better kids.

The sativa pheno of BMR goes way to long...taking 80 days or more...and that transfers into the offspring. This plant was 80 days and still going at the time of the picture.

My keeper F2 mom finishes @ 56-60 days...TO can finish around 65....the multiple females from the last offspring all finished around 56 -65 days.

There are these long flowering BMR phenotypes in the TO x BMR...but hopefully my selections for the best early maturing mothers and the backcross back to TO will rope that shit in~

BlueJayWay · Dec 1, 2012

Hawaiian/Cotton Candy x Pure Kush S1
Massive yields...this flower was over two ounces...unfortunately is was PM susceptible...and was kicked out.

PM is nonexistent in my semi desert-alpine climate - I will gladly take this reject

Velvet Rush - I haven't seen this discussed much, as far as affect/profile - maybe compared to what has since become refered to as "blueberry"?

Also, is there an ultimate goal with VR x NL/H? Maybe to add weight and potency to VR? Just speculating...

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

Soil Enzymes

Soil enzymes increase the reaction rate at which plant residues decompose and release plant available nutrients. The substance acted upon by a soil enzyme is called the substrate. For example, glucosidase (soil enzyme) cleaves glucose from glucoside (substrate), a compound common in plants. Enzymes are specific to a substrate and have active sites that bind with the substrate to form a temporary complex. The enzymatic reaction releases a product, which can be a nutrient contained in the substrate.

Sources of soil enzymes include living and dead microbes, plant roots and residues, and soil animals. Enzymes stabilized in the soil matrix accumulate or form complexes with organic matter (humus), clay, and humus-clay complexes, but are no longer associated with viable cells. It is thought that 40 to 60% of enzyme activity can come from stabilized enzymes, so activity does not necessarily correlate highly with microbial biomass or respiration.

Therefore, enzyme activity is the cumulative effect of long term microbial activity and activity of the viable population at sampling. However, an example of an enzyme that only reflects activity of viable cells is dehydrogenase, which in theory can only occur in viable cells and not in stabilized soil complexes.

Enzymes respond to soil management changes long before other soil quality indicator changes are detectable. Soil enzymes play an important role in organic matter decomposition and nutrient cycling (see Table 1). Some enzymes only facilitate the breakdown of organic matter (e.g., hydrolase, glucosidase), while others are involved in nutrient mineralization (e.g., amidase, urease, phosphatase, sulfates). With the exception of phosphatase activity, there is no strong evidence that directly relates enzyme activity to nutrient availability or crop production. The relationship may be indirect considering nutrient mineralization to plant available forms is accomplished with the contribution of enzyme activity.

Much more at link and in particular you'll want to review Table 1 which has a breakdown of 6 major Enzymes and how they work in your soils and then the End Product as well as their Significance

CC

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

Trichomes And Root Hairs: Natural Pesticide Factories

Introduction

In their continual struggle to overcome pests and competitors, plants have evolved biosynthetic pathways to produce a variety of natural pesticides. The pesticide industry has capitalized on the biological activity of these phytochemicals in their efforts to discover new pesticides, usually exploiting their structural backbones to develop commercial pest control agents. While little effort has been made to understand how and in which organs, tissues, and cells plants manufacture these compounds, some of the most potent phytochemicals are made at the interface of the plant with its biotic environment – the plant epidermis. More specifically, specialized structures on the epidermis of aerial and rhizosphere plant parts (trichomes and root hairs, respectively) often produce relatively large amounts of natural pesticides.

This short review will discuss the production of natural pesticides by these amazing structures, as well as summarizing the practical significance of this information.

CC

xmobotx · Dec 1, 2012

so i saw this thread today & tempted to post some thoughts but i guess not so sure of my advice lately ~seems in my absence you guys have forged on and left me as behind as i was when i joined the forum ~well; maybe not that bad

anyway; it would seem in a discussion about sensitive {to nute} plants and hot soil; the cryptlord 'recipe' is pretty f*kk'n hot

further; i would advise the OP that w/ ANY seedling {canna or ?} a seedling mix is a good idea & seeds planted into recycled mixes a good year plus or so would be fine assuming the mix wasnt insanely 'hot' to begin w/

NTM; the intro of a little worm slurry could help the already problematic seedlings adapt to the 'hot' soil mix

recently; a new poaster OP'd a thread w/ requests for help w/ his soil mix ~ a mix based on the same combination the above OP finds too 'hot' {FFOF+FFHF} minus any amendment ?????? since the day i joined this forum it sure seems like a lot of people want to buy pre-amended {like meeracull gro/FF} mixes w/ unknown amendments ~then add a shit pot MORE amendments

IDK

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

xmobotx

Howdy! Good to 'see you' again around here......

There is a huge misconception on what is or is not a 'hot soil' so you're screwed trying to explain such a basic fact to the ill-informed.

Terms like 'hot soil' or 'Nitrogen hungry' or 'Manganese Sulfate Deprived' or even 'Suffern' Succotash' are the red flags of threads and posts to avoid at all costs even considering their inherent entertainment value - there are some things are just too stupid to do for any reason.

Hot Soil = Unprocessed Organic Material (OM)

Hot Soil = Has nothing to do with being too rich in available Elements.

Example: Alfalfa meal at high levels will give you a 'hot soil' whereas a vermicompost that may have had huge amounts of Alfalfa meal added regularly, once that was processed via microbes and composting worms, leaving the Elements intact there is no way that this could be considered 'hot' - that's the benefit of using well-made thermal compost and vermicompost.

Still fun reading though!

CC

Gascanastan · Dec 1, 2012

BlueJayWay said:
PM is nonexistent in my semi desert-alpine climate - I will gladly take this reject

Velvet Rush - I haven't seen this discussed much, as far as affect/profile - maybe compared to what has since become refered to as "blueberry"?

Also, is there an ultimate goal with VR x NL/H? Maybe to add weight and potency to VR? Just speculating...

That's a good speculation...but I haven't even thought about it yet.
All I did was repopulated it and share a few seed so far...originals still exist.

The first pollination was done in 1991 by some old guy...I have no clue what his intentions were at the time. I got the seeds and figured I'd best get to popping most of them before they expired from being removed from a freezer after 20 some years..
I do wonder what that old doods intentions were if any at all....

I had about 25 VR x NLH females and males....ironically the best mother and father ended up sharing the same pot....so I allowed them to fully pollinate in a separate space. After the hit I killed the male and put the female back into flower....she just kept flowering past the point of pollination which I found interesting.

We're talking 75 to over 100 days in these things...and massive sativa flowers.

The high was full blown old school 'racy' sativa with transcendental effects that I had to set down for a couple of weeks,but found favor in over other popular sativas once it was cured better.

Velvet Rush x NL#5/Neville's Haze .....like 90 days or something insane and still going. The leaf that is brown in the center was on flowers that were pollinated and then kept growing past the died off leaf and seed bearing flower...weird.

xmobotx · Dec 1, 2012

so i saw this thread today & tempted to post some thoughts but i guess not so sure of my advice lately ~seems in my absence you guys have forged on and left me as behind as i was when i joined the forum ~well; maybe not that bad

anyway; it would seem in a discussion about sensitive {to nute} plants and hot soil; the cryptlord 'recipe' is pretty f*kk'n hot

further; i would advise the OP that w/ ANY seedling {canna or ?} a seedling mix is a good idea & seeds planted into recycled mixes a good year plus or so would be fine assuming the mix wasnt insanely 'hot' to begin w/

NTM; the intro of a little worm slurry could help the already problematic seedlings adapt to the 'hot' soil mix

recently; a new poaster OP'd a thread w/ requests for help w/ his soil mix ~ a mix based on the same combination the above OP finds too 'hot' {FFOF+FFHF} minus any amendment ?????? since the day i joined this forum it sure seems like a lot of people want to buy pre-amended {like meeracull gro/FF} mixes w/ unknown amendments ~then add a shit pot MORE amendments

IDK

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

Gascanastan said:
...I have no clue what his intentions were at the time

He was bored……

Gascanastan · Dec 1, 2012

ClackamasCootz said:
He was bored……

Usually as is the case in my better accidents....

I'd say this was a good way to spend a moment of boredom from what I've seen...and the result of such an action becomes a mystery pool of phenotype to explore for entire generations of human being all over the globe some 22 years later.....

S4703W · Dec 1, 2012

Gas, thank you for the why's of fish meals always good to know, and also the delightful pics. I'm anxiously awaiting the day my soil can meet up with your seeds and ya know, do stuff

. Echoing others, but the stuff you're tossing looks better than some of my winners.

SDawg, good to hear that others have already had success with it. I figured someone here would have tried it and would have the scoop.

CC, thank you for the enlightening reads, the last one really got the mind goin(am i going to be dry sifting hazelnuts next year?). Very interesting to hear how to hear how the fish meals are processed. Also, i saw the conversations on bread making the other day and i've been making a bit of bread myself lately. The asiago cheese bread thing, awesome info, i've been on an all out focaccia bender lately and that could be the twist that really takes it to the next level(and cuts down on my parmesan intake). Thanks again, everybody here friggin SOILS(just tryin it out doesn't seem to work the same as rocks)!!

Infinitesimal · Dec 1, 2012

ClackamasCootz said:
Dolomite Lime contains Calcium and Calcium is often referred to as a 'liming agent' - therefore Limestone, Calcite Lime (aka Agricultural Lime), Oyster shell powder (pure Calcium Carbonate), Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate - Calcium & Sulfur), Crab meal, Lobster shell powder, Shrimp meal powder - all of these contain either elemental Calcium (Ca++) or Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) - you have lots of options to choose from

I guess I'll go with this....

Gascanastan said:
1/2 cup this 3 part lime mix based off Steve Soloman's 3 -way lime mix..adjusted by Coot a few years ago.....for the peat moss..and a continued supply of mag,cal,and sulfur as you recycle.

Since the start of this thread we have since determined that dolomite is not necessary,but this lime mix still works for the peat moss ph regardless.

1 part powdered dolomite lime
1 part agricultural gypsum
2 parts powdered oyster shell

ClackamasCootz said:
Bonemeal - I've always used fish bone meal and while NPK numbers don't mean anything to me, I'll use their numbers with price and you can evaluate for yourself:

Bone Meal (cattle, swine, et al) - 3-15-0 and costs $29.00 for 50 lbs. - certified Organic by USDA

Fish Bone Meal - 4-20-0 and costs $29.00 for 50 lbs. - certified Organic by USDA

so If I get some neem meal... I can completely forgo the blood and bone meals?

ClackamasCootz said:
How does this mix look to you:

2x Pro-Mix BX
1x EWC
1x Aeration amendment - Pumice, Perlite, Rice Hulls, Lava Rock, et al.

Sul-Po-Mag - on this one I quit adding this to our raised beds and switched to adding the crystals to water and applying it as a tea where I had better control to the amount being applied.

Kelp meal: I use 1/2 cup to each 1 c.f. of mixed soil. You could safely double that amount

KIS Organics sells organic neem meal which is a far better fertilizer than the the bone and blood meal. Plus you won't be dealing with root aphids or gnats or whatever. That's a given

HTH

CC

some real good stuff on that site... so cheap too!

I guess I need to finally build a tea brewer... (I have always just used top dressings to fertilize)

what about alfalfa meal... or does that need to be composted before use and serve better as a tea ingredient for this instance?

thanks for the help Coot! I really appreciate it!

rrog · Dec 1, 2012

Gas- Any specs on the pumice you amend with? Is this a horticultural grade or such?

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

rrog said:
Gas- Any specs on the pumice you amend with? Is this a horticultural grade or such?

rrog

Pumice is referred to as 'volcanic glass' - it's basically inert but in its structure is the benefit.

Here's an image to see what I'm trying to describe

schwagg · Dec 1, 2012

black volcanic pumice! concentrates in pdx.

ClackamasCootz · Dec 1, 2012

schwagg said:
black volcanic pumice! concentrates in pdx.

From some book larnin' - black pumice = obsidian

Kick ass product plus pretty kewl bragging rights which is always nice.

Like the neem vs. karanja deal. Neem is so passé isn't it? But karanja imparts a certain mystery from Ancient India.

That's my read - LMAO

CC

rrog · Dec 1, 2012

Thanks Coot. Regarding the pumice, I was wondering if there was a size used? Like a screen mesh size or such. http://www.keeferfarms.com/images/soilbig9.jpg This does the job, I suppose?

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