Living organic soil from start through recycling

[rrog]

I think Coot sent me that link. Everything I know I learned from these dudes

 

[Infinitesimal]

thanks to CC and Gas,

this is one of IC's best threads no doubt, very informative, detailed and very long! I am still on the first ten pages and my brain is giving the overload warning... I try to read and digest 1-2 pages per sitting... but you guys add like 10 pages a day it seems like, lol.

anyways, I am in a bit of a crunch and could use some advice...

I need to make a mix tomorrow that can be used right away, and have a couple questions...

I was going to use Phillthy's mix as he doesn't "cook" his soil, only uses water besides some cal mag and probably some molasses... and he constantly gets great results.

but wanted your guy's opinion... any comments or changes that may help...

here is his mix:
basically.
1/2 bale promix bx
1/2 bag ewc
1 bag fox farm ocean forest
1 cup bone meal
1 cup blood meal
1 cup dolomite lime
1/2 cup kelp mix at times


I, myself, was also going to add:
leonardite
Sul Po Mag
some pyrophyllitic clay (GH rare earth)
myco madness inoculant
(^^ I already have all of these)

Questions:


I thought I remember reading CC talk of sphagnum moss being superior to peat, am I remembering correctly... I prefer a very airy mix should I sub the promix for a mixture of sphagnum, coco coir and perlite?

also I remember reading in here that dolomite lime doesn't actually do what most think it does for the plants, it doesn't make a good calcium source, and there are better alternatives... what should be used instead again... was it powdered oyster shell?

Bonemeal... steamed, unsteamed, or fishbone?

what about rock dusts... Azomite fore trace minerals?

is there anything wrong with this mix or anything else y'all can think of?

O'course eventually I want to move away, completely, from commercial store bought soils, amendments and products but for the short term... I need a quick fix if you will... and don't have the time or resources to look around and source all of the stuff at the moment.

in advance, thanks a bunch guys!

Peace,
Infi

 

[BlueJayWay]

Hey what's CK x WS....I know I know I'm not much better with the TO x CB,VR x NLH,K x B/CB etc,etc.

Capt. Kirk x White Satin, the white satin is mandalas, capt Kirk is (vipers venom x sweet island skunk) I have no idea what VV is but I've heard of SIS, if anyone knows anything about the parents that'd be cool. Smells awesome, sweet n funky and so far highly resinous and looks to grow spears, consistency between 5 from seed.

Gas, whatever you call your strains it better be good! LOL nah really I could care less about the names than I do about knowing its lineage - and the lines being worked here are top notch, doesn't take long to figure that one out

TO BO VR I specifically started seed with each of these being mums, I have high expectations and do fully expect to have some current keepers in the garden get the boot to make room that or get a second garden!

BJW

You will not believe the increases in resin, calyx size, etc. I've given the 'new & improved' T.O. using these teas to a few people to try and everyone agrees that the aroma, taste and punch is definitely better.

Cheap enough isn't it?

CC

CC

I believe now LOL, I had a strain I pulled from the garden (unknown) but it grew big buds and I had to fill in like 6 spaces ASAP so it was the last of it and I already planned on it going to the hash pile. Anyways it turned out making big fat sticky greasy (yes greasy) buds that had the disp calling back the next day for more. I fully blame sprouted seed tea applications for increasing resin and calyx size - it's the only new variable on that run with a cut I was fucking with for over a year.

New and Improved TO, shit I have yet to try Old and Not-as-good TO!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

but wanted your guy's opinion... any comments or changes that may help...

here is his mix:
basically.
1/2 bale promix bx
1/2 bag ewc
1 bag fox farm ocean forest
1 cup bone meal
1 cup blood meal
1 cup dolomite lime
1/2 cup kelp mix at times


I, myself, was also going to add:
leonardite
Sul Po Mag
some pyrophyllitic clay (GH rare earth)
myco madness inoculant
(^^ I already have all of these)

Questions:


I thought I remember reading CC talk of sphagnum moss being superior to peat, am I remembering correctly... I prefer a very airy mix should I sub the promix for a mixture of sphagnum, coco coir and perlite?

also I remember reading in here that dolomite lime doesn't actually do what most think it does for the plants, it doesn't make a good calcium source, and there are better alternatives... what should be used instead again... was it powdered oyster shell?

Bonemeal... steamed, unsteamed, or fishbone?

what about rock dusts... Azomite fore trace minerals?

is there anything wrong with this mix or anything else y'all can think of?

O'course eventually I want to move away, completely, from commercial store bought soils, amendments and products but for the short term... I need a quick fix if you will... and don't have the time or resources to look around and source all of the stuff at the moment.

in advance, thanks a bunch guys!

Peace,
Infi

Infi

I'll go through your questions from the top down:

Sphagnum Peat Moss are the 'tops' of the plant material and Peat Moss is the 'shake' - literally - how's that for drawing a clear analogy to our gardens?? LOL

Pro-Mix = Sphagnum Peat Moss with aeration amendments. Big deal, eh?

Dolomite Lime contains Calcium and Calcium is often referred to as a 'liming agent' - therefore Limestone, Calcite Lime (aka Agricultural Lime), Oyster shell powder (pure Calcium Carbonate), Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate - Calcium & Sulfur), Crab meal, Lobster shell powder, Shrimp meal powder - all of these contain either elemental Calcium (Ca++) or Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) - you have lots of options to choose from

Bonemeal - I've always used fish bone meal and while NPK numbers don't mean anything to me, I'll use their numbers with price and you can evaluate for yourself:

Bone Meal (cattle, swine, et al) - 3-15-0 and costs $29.00 for 50 lbs. - certified Organic by USDA

Fish Bone Meal - 4-20-0 and costs $29.00 for 50 lbs. - certified Organic by USDA

Azomite is widely used and therefore is easy to find - follow the application rates provided on the label

Pyrophyllitic clay - pottery supply houses that cater to professionals and serious students carry this material. Typical price is $18.00 - $20.00 for 50 lbs.

I don't get why the FFOF is there at all at all. I would drop it and replace it with an equal volume of Pro-Mix and leave the FFOF at the store. Very little value there as far as achieving your goals.

How does this mix look to you:

2x Pro-Mix BX
1x EWC
1x Aeration amendment - Pumice, Perlite, Rice Hulls, Lava Rock, et al.

Sul-Po-Mag - on this one I quit adding this to our raised beds and switched to adding the crystals to water and applying it as a tea where I had better control to the amount being applied.

Kelp meal: I use 1/2 cup to each 1 c.f. of mixed soil. You could safely double that amount

KIS Organics sells organic neem meal which is a far better fertilizer than the the bone and blood meal. Plus you won't be dealing with root aphids or gnats or whatever. That's a given

HTH

CC

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Anyways it turned out making big fat sticky greasy (yes greasy) buds

BlueJayWay

That's weird - I'd never heard that term used in this deal until last Saturday but that's a very accurate description. Makes for a very heavy smoke that's for sure.

CC

 

[Neo 420]

Made a tea (1/2 cup BU compost, 1/2 cup EWC, pinch of alfalfa and molasses). Foilared and drenched 2 new young ladies (Arjan's Haze #2 and blueberry X Jack) And the next day BOOM. New growth. Mind you I just obtained them and transplanted. I bet it helps that I have soil just composting away in the corner for new ladies. It has been composting for at least 2 months..


They get the aloe treatment this Monday.

This lady (Neville's wreck) has been getting aloe treatments at least once a week..


Now I am wondering if it would be overkill to use the alfalfa tea once a week? I do have alfalfa in the soil mix. Thinking about rotating the aloe/silica/neem and tea with alfalfa every couple of days.

Next project up for me is to complete my no till pots. Still trying to source char though....

 

[BlueJayWay]

Neo, I add aloe to almost every soil watering and always to foliars. 1/4 cup per gallon unless I'm running low, I only see benefits, I'm wondering if there's such a thing as too much aloe - I'm sure there is of course - CC, have you tested amounts and found that 1/4 cup per gal is the sweet spot?

I make a tea with 1/2 cup alfalfa 1/4 cup kelp per 5gal water every week, right before watering I add the aloe (and quite often fulvic acid), as with everything. Every other week or so I make an ACT with the malibu's. with both the act and the alfalfa/kelp in hand I can custom blend for any plant in the garden. Many though will get 1:1:1: botanical:act:water some will get no act some will get varying strength of dilution etc - all depending on stage of growth and looks of the plant or group of plants, from just rooted clone to nearly finished flowering plants.

****edit****

My point was LOL try making an alfalfa/kelp tea separate from ACT, add the aloe to the tea and yes you can use it once a week just keep an eye on the plants, sometimes mine green up a lot and ill skip the alfalfa or replace it with comfrey or yarrow that week. I also have alfalfa in my mix, otherwise I might do 3/4 cup in the tea. I no longer re-amend with alfalfa as I see its benefits much more in applying as a tea.

 

[shmalphy]

Noticed a strange side effect of using fresh seaweed... I think I have barnacles growing on my trays lol.

I have also found slugs, centipedes, various small worms, mites, etc. It is definitely a "living" soil" with a unique ecosystem of it's own.

I joke that I have a primordial soup going from which strange creatures will evolve over time. The creature is me lol.

 

[shmalphy]

BlueJayWay

That's weird - I'd never heard that term used in this deal until last Saturday but that's a very accurate description. Makes for a very heavy smoke that's for sure.

CC

I too have noticed increased "greasiness" since increasing humus content, and using the teas. They are oozing with terpenes.

I notice a huge difference in hash yield and quality from it.

GREEEEEAAASY

 

[S4703W]

BJW this is something i've wondered about too, is there such a thing as too many enzymes? Gascanastan got me thinking when he commented that you could probably grow in just pumice and ewc. i'm going to try one next run with a largely pumice and ewc makeup and try doing teas every other day or so to see the effect as i've definitely tasted and seen the difference with the enzymes.

I also had another question about a product i found at the feed store as an animal feed, Ruminant grade Menhaden Fish Meal(60% protien). Could this be used to the same effect as fish bone meal you guys are all using?

 

[BlueJayWay]

S4703W - I love experiments in the garden, I always seem to have something going on in that aspect, let us know how it goes!

I don't know anything about menhaden fish meal without looking it up though.... Alfalfa and kelp are direct crossovers from the feed to garden arenas, simply because its just plant material. Not sure how animal meals crossover though.....

 

[greenmatter]

BJW this is something i've wondered about too, is there such a thing as too many enzymes? Gascanastan got me thinking when he commented that you could probably grow in just pumice and ewc. i'm going to try one next run with a largely pumice and ewc makeup and try doing teas every other day or so to see the effect as i've definitely tasted and seen the difference with the enzymes.

I also had another question about a product i found at the feed store as an animal feed, Ruminant grade Menhaden Fish Meal(60% protien). Could this be used to the same effect as fish bone meal you guys are all using?

the fish meal from Down To Earth has an NPK of 10-4-0, but their fish bone meal has an NPK of 3-16-0, these two products certainly don't look or smell the same.

i know somebody more qualified than me will chime in, but i would say that fish meal and fish bone meal are not the same thing

check gascan's soil recipe ....... he has both of them in there, so i would think they are not interchangeable.

 

[S4703W]

BJW, me too experimentation is where a good portion of the fun is.

GM, i guess in the 1000 times i've probably been on the first page of this thread i must have just read fish bone and the mind must have wandered cause i didn't see the fish meal in there. thanks for pointing it out to me, helps clear that up.

 

[gregor_mendel]

A comment on Gascanistan's suggestion that one could grow in pumice and EWC:

Years ago I grew in Krusty buckets - essentially recirculating hydro using lava rock as the medium.

When I stopped, I tossed a bunch of lava rocks filled with roots into a plastic bin in the backyard. The bin had a hole near the bottom, so it held very little water.

I forgot about it for over a year. During that time, it naturally gathered fallen leaves, and got rain and snow. When I cleaned up the backyard, that bin was full of not just lava rocks, but a black humus material, and earthworms. It had essentially turned into a living soil by neglect. At the time, I thought "That's cool, this would make a good organic potting soil." Then I threw it out, because I was into hydroponics. Sad. And evidence that Gascanistan is probably right.

 

[YosemiteSam]

As recommended, I'm reading the entire thread from the beginning.



From that link:

"At CEC levels above 20 or 25 (milliequivalents per 100 grams of soil), the soil can hold many more nutrients than a plant would normally need in a year. If the majority of exchange sites in this soil were occupied by the nutrient cations (and not by H+), then very little or no additional amendments may be required for the next 1 to 3 years. However, once this soil is depleted of nutrient cations, it would require a large input of nutrients to restore its original fertility."

Would that be a good general description of what we're trying to achieve?

Be aware they are talking about in fields...not pots. So thousands and thousands of pounds of soil, not a few gallons.

Volume is one way to increase the amount of nutes a soil holds, cec is the other way. Volume is the trick the big outdoor plant growers use.

Still, really high cec makes life so simple. One day someone will go huge volume with a good living soil and the game may change.

 

[Gascanastan]

A comment on Gascanistan's suggestion that one could grow in pumice and EWC:

Years ago I grew in Krusty buckets - essentially recirculating hydro using lava rock as the medium.

When I stopped, I tossed a bunch of lava rocks filled with roots into a plastic bin in the backyard. The bin had a hole near the bottom, so it held very little water.

I forgot about it for over a year. During that time, it naturally gathered fallen leaves, and got rain and snow. When I cleaned up the backyard, that bin was full of not just lava rocks, but a black humus material, and earthworms. It had essentially turned into a living soil by neglect. At the time, I thought "That's cool, this would make a good organic potting soil." Then I threw it out, because I was into hydroponics. Sad. And evidence that Gascanistan is probably right.

And...that statement was based on evidence I find much like that...but the real push into reality came from Coot and MM...

 

[ClackamasCootz]

BJW this is something i've wondered about too, is there such a thing as too many enzymes?

I also had another question about a product i found at the feed store as an animal feed, Ruminant grade Menhaden Fish Meal(60% protien). Could this be used to the same effect as fish bone meal you guys are all using?

S4703W

Enzymes explained

Here's is how fish is processed after the fillets are removed......

The fish carcasses are ground to a slurry and loaded into stainless steel tanks where enough water is added that allows the bone powder to float to the top where it is skimmed off, cleaned and screened = fish bone meal (Phosphorus)

Back at the tank, the remaining flesh slurry is dried, screened and bagged - fish meal (Nitrogen)

HTH

CC

 

[S4703W]

Gregor, funny you bring up Krusty, was just thinking about his buckets today. I've never actually run his setup, but borrowed some concepts from him(larger plants, vertical lighting). The reason i was thinking of him was something i'm going to try, i think they're called earthpots in this spectrum, but i'm going to do them with a res(with active airation) and smartpots on top with roots goin through, kinda sorta organic dwc. just to see for myself ya know.

YS, i suspect you're right, saw some of the gigantors in the large plants outdoors thread (including your beauty's, many compliments) and now that they're all harvested, those guys can all settle down and digest this thread now lol.

 

[Seandawg]

Gregor, funny you bring up Krusty, was just thinking about his buckets today. I've never actually run his setup, but borrowed some concepts from him(larger plants, vertical lighting). The reason i was thinking of him was something i'm going to try, i think they're called earthpots in this spectrum, but i'm going to do them with a res(with active airation) and smartpots on top with roots goin through, kinda sorta organic dwc. just to see for myself ya know.

YS, i suspect you're right, saw some of the gigantors in the large plants outdoors thread (including your beauty's, many compliments) and now that they're all harvested, those guys can all settle down and digest this thread now lol.

I myself use a very similar no-til type "earth box". And results are fantastic! And the living soil has never been so alive!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

Neo, I add aloe to almost every soil watering and always to foliars. 1/4 cup per gallon unless I'm running low, I only see benefits, I'm wondering if there's such a thing as too much aloe - I'm sure there is of course - CC, have you tested amounts and found that 1/4 cup per gal is the sweet spot?

BlueJayWay

Only in this context - the first references that I looked at on using Aloe Vera juice were from Australia and New Zealand garden boards. The amount discussed was 3%

I cut that in half, 1.5%, and that worked out to be 1.92 oz. per gallon. I rounded up to 2 oz. (1/4 cup)

I was getting a huge benefit at 1.5% and I never bumped it up to test if there would be 'more benefit' at higher levels which there may well be. Or not.

LOL

CC