Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

Neo 420 · Mar 11, 2013

You know the real issue on why folks keep having these battles with RA is the biological factor. Your growing plants with soluble nutrition (completing bypassing the microbe aspect and destroying the soil food web chain) and having sterile environments. Once any invaders (RA, FG, PM, ETC..) does make it inside the environment, its a feeding frenzy and populations explode within days due to no resistance.

This is not a knock on soluble nutes. I'm only explaining why the explosion in insect and diseases issues are becoming more commonplace. The only real people benefiting from this epidemic is nute and chem companies (And they ain't stopping shit. Just building immunity) Just collecting our dollars and laughing...

I say what I say from experience and learning. I was there. I used imid products. I used a lot of stuff I regret to this day. I bought it all. But when you read the warnings and got to suit up in PPE's to use, it tends to make you step back and think about what your doing.

Get back into the soil food web and let nature take its course. Microbes play a ever so important role in basically all factors of plants life. Somehow that works its way into insects and diseases.

We as canna gardners have been told to keep out the "bugs", don't leave dying leaves around, bake our soils, yada yada... For some particular reason (maybe due to legality or profitability) some set of "other" rules have been spewed upon the canna plant and it is wreakin havoc.

I know this will be probably be dismissed as some fluky organic bullshit talkn..but hey.... I am the one that no longer has RA. And I feel comfortable with what I am doing.. And my shit has never been better

medicalmj · Mar 11, 2013

Neo 420 said:
...I know this will be probably be dismissed as some fluky organic bullshit talkn..but hey.... I am the one that no longer has RA. And I feel comfortable with what I am doing.. And my shit has never been better

It's the way to go.

I have even been able to continuing w some non-organic soluble nutes along with the ACT, Aerated Compost Tea. Under the scope microbes abound even weeks later with all soluble nutes and some "sugars". Besides the compost tea, I add mycorrhiza early on, but stop in flower, while continuing the ACT to harvest.

I did sterile and had amazing results, the biggest/fastest I ever grown. But one day I listened to this salesman who convinced me to add a product that had some type of sugar and also the "smelly stuff that rocks". Well my dwc got the funk pretty soon and the rest is history...

RockyMountainHi · Mar 11, 2013

Neo - Greed and commercial interests have waited to jump on the bud bandwagon. They say they know whats "Good enough". They say continious rotation of insectacides are the way to bountyful harvests. They also say, if everybody else has disease and pests - they sell more.

Sounds like the tobbaco industry a few generations ago.

Or Con-Agra for the last few decades.

Or any of about a million other prospects.

I started growing organic soil years ago, and it took over a year of loosing battles to R/A's to pull the trigger and move back to soil. After a dose of earthworm tea on rockwool, I remembered my soil days and started gathering supplies.

One thing I think a lot of people miss,,, eliminating R/A's is like battleing cock roaches. There is no one trick pony. And those who clean every square mm several times over a month or two - or three, usually prevail. And don't forget houseplants. won't help to treat the garden and leave the hybiscus infected.

I haven't seen flyers for months, but a big magnifier and a couple minutes will usially find my nemisis in the rockwool crew.

I've been gathering info from gardening and farming sites - alot less bull puckie and more real world info. -
Side note, it's also where they say 125 deg F root rinse kills R/A's. Maybe it did, but the plants died too.

I sprouted some Strawberry D X ChemxBubba to test my soil mix - the kids look great! Clones too!

Botaniguard worked better than Nematoads, which worked better than Caps Packs. Bayer Tree n Shrub beat the hell out of the plants and - dented the R/A's, but it was a race to see if the bugs or plants died first.

I am starting my first round of soil transplants and so far, i am seeing healthy plants and roots. But I've thought I was out of the woods before.

A few times.

Neo 420 · Mar 12, 2013

RockyMountainHi said:
I am starting my first round of soil transplants and so far, i am seeing healthy plants and roots. But I've thought I was out of the woods before.

Neem meal and crab meal for starters...Get that chitin and azadirachtinin in the soil quickly....

From WIKI
Neem Meal (Azadirachtin):
It was initially found to be active as a feeding inhibitor towards the desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria), it is now known to affect over 200 species of insect, by acting mainly as an antifeedant and growth disruptor, and as such it possesses considerable toxicity toward insects.
Crab meal (Chitin):
Most recent studies point out that chitin is a good inducer for defense mechanisms in plants. (SARS)

Use high quality worm casting (Worm castings contain Chitinase-producing organisms)

Use foliar sprays that help to induce SARS/natural fungicides and insecticides such as aloe vera, (Don't believe me? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2008061235.html ) neem oil, lavender or any number of other "free" or easily found medicinal plants..

I have spelled out my regiment before on this thread and no one heard me....

sneaky_g · Mar 12, 2013

Rock its just strange that i find a 50 page thread of farmers like myself succesfully winning the battle with RA's and bennies packs... The foliar in particular wipes them out. I'll pm you a link if you want to see it first hand.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 12, 2013

You guys are 100% correct, if you want to control Root Aphids, bennies/nematodes are are effective strategies to CONTROL them. Lots of research that will back up you up--as well as lots of first hand experience.

But, what about the grower who discovers one morning 100% of his crop is infested with Root Aphids...teas, bennies, nematodes will not do shit for him at this advanced stage of infestation. To "control" RAs is not an option, and if tossing everything out and starting over is not feasible...then a knock down strategy will be employed. Some strategies are more responsible than others.

The power of a healthy soil/plant can not be understated! A diversity of healthy microorganisms and providing the plant with all the elements/minerals available are a few things growers can do to keep a happy garden!

Now, exactly what you feed the microherd is a good ongoing debate...with very few wrong answers. And, we all know what I use .

hydrodreams · Mar 12, 2013

yerboyblue said:
Orthene and acephate are the same things, orthene is just the brand name. I tried using the application that NorKali posted from Eclipse420. It didn't do any damage to my plants immediately, but it really severely damaged them in the following 2 weeks, it did worse damage than the RA's would have done. The Orthene/acephate labels do have phytotoxicity warnings on them, meaning it has shown to effect the listed plants.
I think it had to do with some reaction to my nutrients, I know Eclipse was running organics and if not mistaken, I think NorKal too. I run synthetics. The damage the stuff does is repairable if in veg, I just made the mistake of doing it in flower.

I tried to read everything I could find about Orthene here yesterday, because Eclipse is so convinced about its effectifeness.

Then I found the post from yerboyblue I quoted above. So it seems to be a very risky endeavor if one is in flower.

Eclipse, you earlier stated, that there is no silver bullet when fighting root aphids, but if thats the consequence of using Orthene.....

EclipseFour20 · Mar 12, 2013

I was not aware of yerboyblue's problems. Not saying he did anything wrong, but damage 2 weeks after the treatment may or may not be related to Orthene + Riptide. That said--one can not rule out a conflict with his synthetics as he suggests--or other normal growing issues (PH to high/low, etc)

Hate to see anyone lose a crop, hence why I posted the Orthene + Riptide solution I discovered.

sneaky_g · Mar 12, 2013

i think the attitude that one site is better or inadequate is bullshit. If you have 500 farmers from any site with the same goal, and they are sharing they're experience who is too say one is inadequate or one is not.. I have been reading on overgrow since around 2004, and they're were some quacks and also some really helpful knowledgeable people. Really no reason for any site to get on they're high horse and limit Knowledge to the farmers by blocking links to competitors ect.

RockyMountainHi · Mar 12, 2013

sneaky_g said:
i think the attitude that one site is better or inadequate is bullshit.

sneaky, - wana picture of my half used Caps's packs and my root aphids?

Worm casting tea does more good and costs MUCH less than Caps.

I thought Caps was a secret too.

just more snake oil.

imo.

I read the hype - paid the piper and yet,, the bugs are still here in the dead of winter.

There's another product touted as sure fire death to all bad bugs for cannabis- I think it was Nukem,, it's the worlds most expensive brewers yeast. The only one I can find that says yeast kills Root Aphids is the maker. I say more snake oil.

Caps won't even say what he is selling - and every batch gets the latest and greatest tweak.

I'll tell ya who's tweaking........

hydrodreams · Mar 12, 2013

EclipseFour20 said:
I was not aware of yerboyblue's problems. Not saying he did anything wrong, but damage 2 weeks after the treatment may or may not be related to Orthene + Riptide. That said--one can not rule out a conflict with his synthetics as he suggests--or other normal growing issues (PH to high/low, etc)

Hate to see anyone lose a crop, hence why I posted the Orthene + Riptide solution I discovered.

Nobody really knows what was yerbpoyblue's problem. But I was just shocked when I read his post....

So Eclipse, you never felt like your plants were in a worser condition after drenches? They didn't show any weakness after your drenches?

I think I would turn crazy if I drench my 150 clones waiting to be planted right now, if they die.....

sneaky_g · Mar 12, 2013

I want more information on your packs and how you used them.

How bad was the infestation when you began using the packets?

What stage were the plants when you used the packets?

At what rate per gallon did you apply the packets?

Were you in organic soil, hydro , dwc?

What was your soil blend?

What food source did you add to your ACT tea when you put in your packets?

They're are 40 people on another site that have been registered to their site for years that claim his bene packs work .. Perhaps you're method didn't work because your set of variables were different.

EclipseFour20 · Mar 12, 2013

In my current garden...there were only 2 occasions where death resulted after treatment: Plants died 3 days after dunking containers in Potassium Salts of Fatty Acids (aka Insecticide Soap) during my early days of treating Root Aphids "organically"...the second occasion was after adding "liquid lime" in attempt to increase the soil PH of a pure peat soil mix experiment I did last summer.

After the Orthene + Riptide treatment, plants showed no signs of wilt or shock and most of the time, the container soil would dry out in about 3-5 days...with leaves showing vibrancy--uplifting and nice color.

Realize, I am a grower like many of you...problem is I am also a perfectionist and consult for a living (which means I research and ALWAYS present multiple alternatives to my clients). So, when I problem solve--I seek multiple solutions; seldom is the "first solution" the best. I also like sharing solutions...hence my Orthene + Riptide dunk strategy.

sneaky_g · Mar 12, 2013

I am about the organics.. i dont want the chemicals of imid even in veg in my plants. I'm not willing to go that route... period...

My mother passed away from liver bone and long cancer this past year and i do not want to put my self at any greater risk by smoking the pesticides that are used so often these days. To be honest they all scare me. I know RA's are a bitch, but i'm a clean freak.. and a hermit for the most part. I can win the battle because i love to constantly vacuum whipe down the grow space.. Its part of my routine.. I believe that by sanitizing and using preventatives i can beat RA..

I have ordered two natural products to fight in my battle. Since i'm pure organics ( I use the blazeoneup / pure knowledge recipe). The Met 52 i've heard mixed results. I'm wondering if thats a variable from the climate which the met is stored in.

The met 52 I ordered was 100 bucks for 2.2 lbs, mixed at 4 grams per gallon of dirt should do me fine for my 5 gallon flower set up. The testimonials of real growers from registered sites like this one is mixed on the 52 , but at this point i'm willing to give it a shot.

Besides adding the 52 to my medium, i plan on employing the cap packets and keep my grow space super clean. After I finish these kali mist that are currently in flower (day 45), I am going to dr doom the house every 3 days for 9 days and start again from seed using the preventatives listed above.

I know the merit works.. but I really don't want to risk my health over something relatively newly introduced to the herb we smoke.. Think about it.. 15 years ago RA wasn't heard of , and rarely did you find smoke on the street that was sprayed. I think the use of pesticides has made our problem progressively worse.

hydrodreams · Mar 12, 2013

Thanks Eclipse

I hope you feel not offended if I question your method so much. But you know that people who had root aphids problems already are very sensitive for further losses of yield. So nothing personal.

Anyway, today I ordered Orthene and Riptide in the US. I hope it will reach my house here in Switzerland :huggg:

But tell me one more thing: You said you have 100 plants and you drenched each of them for 30minutes. If I imagine that, it looks logistically unbelievable (space, duration of the whole action)???

How big were your pots?

sheik_yerbouti · Mar 12, 2013

sneaky_g said:
I am about the organics.. i dont want the chemicals of imid even in veg in my plants. I'm not willing to go that route... period...

My mother passed away from liver bone and long cancer this past year and i do not want to put my self at any greater risk by smoking the pesticides that are used so often these days. To be honest they all scare me. I know RA's are a bitch, but i'm a clean freak.. and a hermit for the most part. I can win the battle because i love to constantly vacuum whipe down the grow space.. Its part of my routine.. I believe that by sanitizing and using preventatives i can beat RA..

I have ordered two natural products to fight in my battle. Since i'm pure organics ( I use the blazeoneup / pure knowledge recipe). The Met 52 i've heard mixed results. I'm wondering if thats a variable from the climate which the met is stored in.

The met 52 I ordered was 100 bucks for 2.2 lbs, mixed at 4 grams per gallon of dirt should do me fine for my 5 gallon flower set up. The testimonials of real growers from registered sites like this one is mixed on the 52 , but at this point i'm willing to give it a shot.

Besides adding the 52 to my medium, i plan on employing the cap packets and keep my grow space super clean. After I finish these kali mist that are currently in flower (day 45), I am going to dr doom the house every 3 days for 9 days and start again from seed using the preventatives listed above.

I know the merit works.. but I really don't want to risk my health over something relatively newly introduced to the herb we smoke.. Think about it.. 15 years ago RA wasn't heard of , and rarely did you find smoke on the street that was sprayed. I think the use of pesticides has made our problem progressively worse.

I'm no expert but have done a lot of research lately about root Aphids...

I feel like battling root Aphids organically can be done but would be dependant on spending a lot of $ and have a meticulous garden preferably contained to one room without mother rooms and such.

It seems like there are lots of organic solutions that when combined and used over a long enough period of time you could rid yourself of Aphids.

Products I can think of off the top of my head;

MGK Pyganic - An organic Pyrethrin Contact Killer
Botanigard - Biological insecticide that grows into a fungus (unsure about totally organic)
Met 52 - Another biological insecticide
Predatory Nematodes

I imagine with continual use of a combination of these products you could eventually rid yourself of Aphids or at least keep them at bay enough to not ever have an effect on your garden. Cost an arm and a leg depending on your garden size though.

RetroGrow · Mar 12, 2013

sneaky_g said:
i think the attitude that one site is better or inadequate is bullshit. If you have 500 farmers from any site with the same goal, and they are sharing they're experience who is too say one is inadequate or one is not.. I have been reading on overgrow since around 2004, and they're were some quacks and also some really helpful knowledgeable people. Really no reason for any site to get on they're high horse and limit Knowledge to the farmers by blocking links to competitors ect.

I've explained why they do it. Some less reputable sites plagiarize from this site. This I know for a fact. Plus, you have the best breeders/growers in the world on this site.

RetroGrow · Mar 12, 2013

sheik_yerbouti said:
I'm no expert but have done a lot of research lately about root Aphids...

I feel like battling root Aphids organically can be done but would be dependant on spending a lot of $ and have a meticulous garden preferably contained to one room without mother rooms and such.

It seems like there are lots of organic solutions that when combined and used over a long enough period of time you could rid yourself of Aphids.

Products I can think of off the top of my head;

MGK Pyganic - An organic Pyrethrin Contact Killer
Botanigard - Biological insecticide that grows into a fungus (unsure about totally organic)
Met 52 - Another biological insecticide
Predatory Nematodes

I imagine with continual use of a combination of these products you could eventually rid yourself of Aphids or at least keep them at bay enough to not ever have an effect on your garden. Cost an arm and a leg depending on your garden size though.

Botaniguard ES works well, but if you really want to be rid of RAs permanently, switch to coco. Soil is their habitat, so soil growers have their work cut out for them. Much harder to deal with in soil. Virtually all potting soil has them.

nofriend · Mar 12, 2013

Piperonyl Butoxide

Piperonyl Butoxide

Piperonyl Butoxide.

Riptide contains 25% PBO. Here is an article on that chemical:

https://blogs.nicholas.duke.edu/thegreengrok/pbos/

Sounds like the PBO enhances other pesticides so the Orthene + Riptide cocktail could be extremely potent. Although this vendor of a similar product does states that it can be mixed with other pesticides:

http://www.bugsource.com/6_pyrethrin_60_pbo.html

More info:

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Piperonyl+Butoxide

Products like Riptide are approved for use on edible crops. Acephate is also approved for use on edible crops. To all you organo-heads out there I have a couple questions. Is everything you consume organic? Do you actually live 100% organically including household cleaners, toiletries, clothing, etc? I find it nearly impossible to eat only organic foods. With that in mind, if I were to treat my cannabis crop with a root drench of two non systemic pesticides, I am sure that the amount of pesticide (if any) I consume from the two bowls a day I smoke would be less than a percent of my daily pesticide intake. Modern society seems to have its compromises.

RetroGrow · Mar 12, 2013

nofriend said:
Piperonyl Butoxide.

Riptide contains 25% PBO. Here is an article on that chemical:

https://blogs.nicholas.duke.edu/thegreengrok/pbos/

Sounds like the PBO enhances other pesticides so the Orthene + Riptide cocktail could be extremely potent. Although this vendor of a similar product does states that it can be mixed with other pesticides:

http://www.bugsource.com/6_pyrethrin_60_pbo.html

More info:

http://toxipedia.org/display/toxipedia/Piperonyl+Butoxide

Products like Riptide are approved for use on edible crops. Acephate is also approved for use on edible crops. To all you organo-heads out there I have a couple questions. Is everything you consume organic? Do you actually live 100% organically including household cleaners, toiletries, clothing, etc? I find it nearly impossible to eat only organic foods. With that in mind, if I were to treat my cannabis crop with a root drench of two non systemic pesticides, I am sure that the amount of pesticide (if any) I consume from the two bowls a day I smoke would be less than a percent of my daily pesticide intake. Modern society seems to have its compromises.

Every breath you take has toxins

And don't necessarily think that foods labeled "organic" really are. They had an expose on "Nightline" recently, where they did DNA analysis on foods @ Whole Foods Market, and the "organic" foods there were some of the worst offenders as far as labeling of the ingredients. You wouldn't even believe some of the crap they put in products and label them "organic". Probably can find the episode online @ ABC. It was about a month ago. Now, with DNA analysis, they are going to be cracking down on mislabeled products, which are in every supermarket, including organic ones.

Fungus gnats or WINGED ROOT APHIDS???

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