YOUR GARDEN IS NOT ORGANIC...

[pray4pistils]

let's see it then! the experience you can't transmit. The citations you have declined to submit. something's gotta give...

What do you want to see? It's not that I've declined to submit citations that I do have. I'm simply not a research scientist and don't have any to provide! What I can share in good faith is a) my experience, and b) a thread that chronicles my experiences. Folks are also chiming into that same thread with 3rd-party experiences that support my views (even if they're not academically rigorous).

like microbeman I find your account of worm survival for a few months to be completely irrelevant.

To me their presence in a mostly perlite/vermiculite mix (fed with mostly synthetic nutes) was a major revelation. To you and microbeman they're "completely irrelevant". Why?

But it's not the only thing to look for. I keep worms in my pots too, and it isn't exactly hard to achieve. As in your case, they are often a surprise.

The worm's presence proves (to me, anyway) that worms can hatch from viable eggs and then grow for weeks/months in a mostly synthetic environment. It does not prove that they're happy, that the "soil"/food web is perfectly adapted, etc. However, their presence does demonstrate that synthetics won't instantly kill off microbes as so many organics absolutists believe. (No, I'm not implying that you and microbeman believe this totally.)

the old "all or nothing" argument to establish hypocrisy as a means of invalidating a totally unrelated and independent point of view?

With that I wasn't attempting to expose anyone's hypocrisy. Rather, I was taking the position that synthetics can coexist with an otherwise "natural" environment. It was only an example that our planet can accomodate modern living practices (e.g. cars or industry) without self-destructing. I do know some organic growers that are "off the grid" in nearly every aspect of their lives. That's good for them, but it ain't for me. When those guys promote 100% organics as the ONLY way, well... they're being consistent. They walk the walk. I respect it. However, when I see a Hummer in the Whole Foods parking lot driven by a self-righteous jerk... Well, I want to key the damned thing (but resist temptation, of course).

Really, though. Forget this point. I agree with you completely.

maybe one should look up the ideas and facts he gives rather than argue as a reflex. Nothing creates certainty like ignorance does.

You're right. But, you should appreciate that my views are actually the result of taking in info from BurnOne, CT Guy, Clackamas Coot, Dr. Ingraham, publications like TWM, etc. Of course, I have to reconcile that information with what I discover for myself, too. There's an apparent contradiction between the absolutist views that some of these folks share (not Coot and not CT Guy, btw) and what I've found for myself. I've made it perfectly clear that I resent fascists and other thought police. I respect knowledge and revere those that seek it. That is... so long as they keep an open mind and some humility about things.

The pure organics folks should be confident and secure enough to take in new ideas without feeling threatened. What I see/hear more typically is a holier than thou attitude and the same voices in an echo chamber.

Thank you for being smart and diplomatic.

 

[Trichgnomes]

You're right. But, you should appreciate that my views are actually the result of taking in info from BurnOne, CT Guy, Clackamas Coot, Dr. Laura Ingraham, publications like TWM, etc.

Just for the record, this is the second time you have referred to Elaine Ingham as Laura Ingham. Not trying to bicker semantics, but that's her name. Also, if you check out any of secondtry's posts, ( a fellow that is highly regarded by some, albeit eccentric and a bit too techie for a lot of folks) you will notice that Dr. Ingham is not the end-all be-all when it comes to soil food web science/ microbial nutrient cycling (I know you didn't say that, I'm just pointing it out).
I don't want to keep up this synthetics + organics vs pure organics BS, because clearly, you have your views, and that is fine. I just wanted to bring up the fact that the reason that a lot of choose not to rely on synthetics is because most (if not all) are derived from from non-renewable resources. I am personally trying to cut down on importing in fertilizer, etc. from somewhere where far away, and instead use what is in my local community/within my realm of DIY ability, etc.
Just a thought.

 

[santasapimp]

so i shouldnt waste my money getting liquid karma for LCS mix? should i just use mollasses to wet up and activate all my dry ingredients?

 

[Dignan]

Have any synthetic people been convinced to grow organic because of this thread?
Any organic people convinced to grow synthetic?

 

[SuperSizeMe]

So, Neptune's Harvest isn't Organic ?

 

[guest2012y]

Have any synthetic people been convinced to grow organic because of this thread?
Any organic people convinced to grow synthetic?

Good question!!
I think if some of these cats could chong down on some organic nugs of mine then there would probably be some converts.

I don't think it would work the other way around.
I can't convince anybody to grow organic unless they get to handle the product,then things always change.

 

[xmobotx]

Good question!!
I think if some of these cats could chong down on some organic nugs of mine then there would probably be some converts.

I don't think it would work the other way around.
I can't convince anybody to grow organic unless they get to handle the product,then things always change.

the "popping" when you smoke, other strange burn related oddities and, funky tastes associated w/ chem grow never happens w/ anything i know of grown organic

a lot of folks just go about doing things they way they always have. but it sure seems like there's a lot of reasons to go organic and not so many to go w/ chem (other than no learning curve) -meaning a beginner can just buy a bag of mix and feed according to the bottle directions and remain a beginner ad infinitum

 

[pray4pistils]

Just for the record, this is the second time you have referred to Elaine Ingham as Laura Ingham.

I'm laughing at myself. Laura Ingraham is somebody I know from a recipe club.

Also, if you check out any of secondtry's posts...

I'll definitely check'm out.

...the reason that a lot of choose not to rely on synthetics is because most (if not all) are derived from from non-renewable resources.

I'm pretty much on the same page. You know what I'm really into? -rooftop and other urban gardens. "Food deserts" are prevalent in inner cities where nothing but junk is available. If these people or communities were empowered to do micro-farming, food delivery problems would be improved. Huge amounts of oil could be saved by eliminating most transportation costs. Heat retention/cooling could be enhanced. Also, building run off would be contained. Imagine green roof tops everywhere.

 

[DARC MIND]

I'm pretty much on the same page. You know what I'm really into? -rooftop and other urban gardens. "Food deserts" are prevalent in inner cities where nothing but junk is available. If these people or communities were empowered to do micro-farming, food delivery problems would be improved. Huge amounts of oil could be saved by eliminating most transportation costs. Heat retention/cooling could be enhanced. Also, building run off would be contained. Imagine green roof tops everywhere.

id like to see
sky scraper crops or smaller towers for small towns but grown 100% organic

 

[xmobotx]

empowered to do micro-farming, food delivery problems would be improved. Huge amounts of oil could be saved

like the use of the word "empowered"

hmmm, then the reason why they're not "empowered"

spread the word i guess empower"

 

[grapeman]

so i shouldnt waste my money getting liquid karma for LCS mix? should i just use mollasses to wet up and activate all my dry ingredients?

I would follow the directions and use the LK if possible.

 

[pray4pistils]

id like to see
sky scraper crops or smaller towers for small towns but grown 100% organic

Man, I'd give up my left nut to work and live in an environment like that. Urban landscapes don't need to be barren concrete jungles.

like the use of the word "empowered"
hmmm, then the reason why they're not "empowered"
spread the word i guess empower"

I... have no idea what you're saying. What ARE you saying?

 

[santasapimp]

I would follow the directions and use the LK if possible.

you always have straight up answers. thats the best. 30$ is nothing if the end product is better

 

[madback]

organic is a funny word. I was trying to find out more information on what the polymer wetting agent in promix was.. no luck, all I got was a bunch of blah about what polymers are all about.
I searched organic, and inorganic, and this is what I got...

organic |ôrˈganik|
adjective
1 of, relating to, or derived from living matter : organic soils.
• Chemistry of, relating to, or denoting compounds containing carbon (other than simple binary compounds and salts) and chiefly or ultimately of biological origin. Compare with inorganic .
• (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents.

inorganic |ˌinôrˈganik|
adjective
not arising from natural growth.
• Chemistry of, relating to, or denoting compounds that are not organic (broadly, compounds not containing carbon). Compare with organic .
• without organized physical structure.
• Linguistics not explainable by the normal processes of etymology.

So I'm still stumped on what has or doesn't have carbon molecules in it.

 

[xmobotx]

I... have no idea what you're saying. What ARE you saying?

I'm saying that roof gardens, container gardens, niche gardens, you know, inner city kind of gardens w/ food (instead of ornamentals?) are a great idea and could potentially conserve on fuels (as opposed to shipping stuff all over and driving to the store and packaging foods -a means of minimizing "saving" if you will fuel use)

and, in this age of convenience, we chose the stores?

we are "empowered" - we can grow our own and more should. But we love going for a drive i guess and getting stuff shipped from far away too

so the oil industry thrives. But, which came first chicken or egg? -meaning do we blame oil or our self?

 

[grapeman]

you always have straight up answers. thats the best. 30$ is nothing if the end product is better

I'm just saying that if B1 posted directions and it was my first organic soil grow, I would follow them to a T. End product may not be better but it is tried and true. on my Second, third, forth grow..... I would add my own twists to the recipe from my experience from watching my grows. That's my plan anyway.
Good luck.

 

[uglybunny]

I don't believe that judicious use of synthetics will kill a soil/food web. It prompts adaptation. Btw, do you live in a house or in a cave? Do you drive a car or do you walk everywhere? You obviously use a computer and use the Internet. You obviously make a choice to make use of modern synthetics. Taking a stand on organic growing is well and good, but the absolutist philosophy contradicts your daily practices.

buddy, if it's not a scholarly review, let's not make sweeping assumptions of scientific fact or theory backed up by nothing but imagination. I would have less trouble with a mystical argument than this one.

I've posted this elsewhere before, but this peer-reviewed paper pretty much backs up what p4p is saying. Judicious use of synthetic fertilizers does not harm the microherd.

 

[guest2012y]

I'm just saying that if B1 posted directions and it was my first organic soil grow, I would follow them to a T. End product may not be better but it is tried and true. on my Second, third, forth grow..... I would add my own twists to the recipe from my experience from watching my grows. That's my plan anyway.
Good luck.

I can say Burn1's advice saved my garden. Got to put the trust in what these guys say. Dolomite,EWC,and teas can change your mind about even touching a ph meter.

 

[mad librettist]

I've posted this elsewhere before, but this peer-reviewed paper pretty much backs up what p4p is saying. Judicious use of synthetic fertilizers does not harm the microherd.

please explain. it's not self evident from the beginning, so perhaps you can show me how you came to the conclusion that since inoculating with a few microbes helps reduce fertilizer use, fertilizer does not hurt the diversity and functioning of food webs in the soil and beyond.

but i do thank you for taking the time to post that, so we can agree or disagree in a productive way.

 

[uglybunny]

The study shows specifically that known strains of rhizobacteria which are beneficial to plant growth are not harmed by synthetic fertilizers. You have a point that it doesn't really make any comment on the condition of the soil food web, but it at least shows that synthetic users can take advantage of microbes as well. I'm not saying that there is no impact on the soil food web from fertilization, I'm just saying that p4p is right when he says "I don't believe that judicious use of synthetics will kill a soil/food web. It prompts adaptation."

For a broader look at the impact of mineral fertilizer management vs. the impact of organic fertilizer management I found this study searching the academic databases: here.

Here is the abstract:

The impact of long-term turfgrass management practices on soil nematode population and community structure and nutrient pools were studied in replicated Kentucky bluegrass (Poa pratensis) plots managed under 9 different organic- and mineral-fertilizer regimes for 15 years in Delaware, Ohio. Soil samples were collected in September 2003, July 2004 and October 2004. Nematodes were extracted using the Baermann funnel technique, identified to genus level, and populations of total, free-living (FLN), bacterivorous, fungivorous, predatory, omnivorous, and plant-parasitic (PPN) nematodes, were counted. FLN/PPN ratio, total number of genera, genus diversity, richness, evenness, Maturity Index, Plant-Parasitic Index, and Combined Maturity Index were calculated. In addition, soil nematode faunal profile analysis was conducted to determine soil food web condition using Enrichment Index and Structure Index. Concentrations of NH4-N, NO3-N, dissolved organic nitrogen, microbial biomass nitrogen, and soil organic matter (SOM) were measured in soil samples to describe soil nutrient status. Results from repeated measures analysis of variance showed that in general, nematode populations and food web indices were not differently affected by the 9 turfgrass management regimes but microbial biomass nitrogen and SOM were different. Further group analysis revealed that nematode community indices, Maturity Index and Combined Maturity Index, were significantly lower and Enrichment Index was significantly higher under high (223 kg N ha−1 year−1) and medium (171 kg N ha−1 year−1) N-input compared to low N-input (98 kg N ha−1 year−1) management group, indicating disturbance of the nematode food web. In addition, organic-fertilizer based turf management resulted in significantly higher soil microbial biomass compared to mineral-fertilizer management or the control, but no differences were found in the nematode community between the two fertilizer types. Herbicide, insecticide, or fungicide applications had no significant negative effect on soil nematode community, microbial biomass and SOM. We conclude that the amount of N fertilizer influences the soil nematode food web and nutrient pools in turfgrass while pesticides have no effect. Our results also show that irrespective of the management regime, the soil nematode food webs under turfgrass are more enriched but less structured than those under natural grassland ecosystems, indicating an overall food web disturbance.

Emphasis added by me. The bacterial biomass was higher(and thus N derived from bacteria was also higher) in the organically managed plots, which makes sense to me since organic ferts are basically food for microbes. And while soil organic matter(SOM) did differ between chemical and organic management styles, "SOM in organic-fertilizer management was not significantly higher than in mineral-fertilizer management, but it was higher than the control."

"In addition, microbial biomass and soil organic matter pools in turfgrass ecosystems were generally improved by inputs as the control resulted in lower microbial biomass nitrogen and SOM than all other regimes overall."

I agree that organically managed plots are superior to mineral fertilizer based management strategies, but both increase soil microbial activity and SOM. I think this is in contrast to what is the common understanding on this forum (ie. Synthetics harm the soil food web). Now everything can be overdone, which is why I say judicious use of synthetic fertilizers will not harm the microherd.

Peace,

UB