Yellowing is not neccessarily a lack of N.

[Clackamas Coot]

The One-Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka

 

[Microbeman]

"Natural farming is not simply a way of growing crops; it is the cultivation and perfection of human beings.”

Fukuoka

 

[compost]

You are correct that the needs of the plant change and the exudates change to promote fungal and other P delivering microbes, however this does not crowd out the other microbes which normally deliver N, they are just dormant.

I don't buy the pH manipulation nor the fact that the plant depletes the N reserves though. This was illustrated by Mr Fista being able to plant new seedlings into the same soil which promoted flower and death for the previous harvest if I understand correctly.

Gotcha on the dormancy part. The PH manipulation thing though is a misunderstanding. I was more intrested in the nitric acid since it was a nitrogen salt that would be readily available to the plant. The N reserves being depleted was more a reference to the leafs losing there green not the soil or roots. There can be a ton of N in the soil and not be used.

I am curious about this because I am more versed in hydroponics and my last 2 organic soil harvests have had the severe leaf yellowing WAY to early into flowering. The harvest before those 2 I was using nitric acid deep into flowering for my PH adjustment. I did not have the same problem save one really big plant.

Would like to get more dailed in because I feel my harvest are not up to par because of it. If it was occurring later in flowering I wouldn't mind but I am getting it bad at week 4 or 5 when I am going 10 weeks. I am willing to learn just need someone to help or teach

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I do not particularly like the word "work.” Human beings are the only animals who have to work, and I think this is the most ridiculous thing in the world. Other animals make their livings by living, but people work like crazy, thinking that they have to in order to stay alive. The bigger the job, the greater the challenge, and the more wonderful they think it is. It would be good to give up that way of thinking and live an easy, comfortable life with plenty of free time. I think that the way animals live in the tropics, stepping outside in the morning and evening to see if there is something to eat, and taking a long nap in the afternoon, must be a wonderful life.

- Masanobu Fukuoka from his book, The One Straw Revolution

 

[MrFista]

Fukuoka was a visionary wasn't he. Awesome philosophy and skills.

I totally agree with his aversion to work. I don't mind doing something once...

You'd be a great full time student Tim, but the world is benefiting directly from what you do now and people are now teaching other people what you have taught them. You have begun your own one straw revolution, by design or not...

 

[Cannasseur]

compost,
Perhaps you have yourself a pest matter and not one regarding nutrient availability?

 

[Microbeman]

Gotcha on the dormancy part. The PH manipulation thing though is a misunderstanding. I was more intrested in the nitric acid since it was a nitrogen salt that would be readily available to the plant. The N reserves being depleted was more a reference to the leafs losing there green not the soil or roots. There can be a ton of N in the soil and not be used.

I am curious about this because I am more versed in hydroponics and my last 2 organic soil harvests have had the severe leaf yellowing WAY to early into flowering. The harvest before those 2 I was using nitric acid deep into flowering for my PH adjustment. I did not have the same problem save one really big plant.

Would like to get more dailed in because I feel my harvest are not up to par because of it. If it was occurring later in flowering I wouldn't mind but I am getting it bad at week 4 or 5 when I am going 10 weeks. I am willing to learn just need someone to help or teach

Gotcha. Interesting about the nitric acid applications. Please let us know what you learn.

I'll take your word for it that the race (strain) you were growing was up for a 10 week ripening, however, as Mr Fista has pointed out there are triggers built into plants which cause an early fruiting brought on by a variety of events or environmental swings, which may account for your 'early' yellowing.

I first really became aware of this when I cut down some thistles which were just showing encapsulated flower heads (buds). I cut them down and left them on the roadway to dry. When I looked the next day or two they had not only flowered but produced seeds which were blowing in the wind....self preservation is probably the strongest influence/urge for all animals and plants. Following this, I made a point of observing this with other species. If I am now trying to control a large weed at that stage, I ask the person doing the work to place the plant into a sack to keep the seeds from spreading.

 

[Cannasseur]

Weeds are probably one of the better examples of sexually productive and genetically productive organisms that I can think of. The little bastards can be quite precocious.

What kind of thistle did you have yourself, MM?

Edit:
I guess this probably is a bit off topic...

 

[Microbeman]

Canada & Bull

 

[compost]

compost,
Perhaps you have yourself a pest matter and not one regarding nutrient availability?

I know for sure I do have springtails. I use alot of organic pest prevention but I could have that problem. My next run I have in addition to neem, spinosad, DE, dunks, and an insecticidal soap; the bayer tree and shrub(mixed into soil 14 weeks before the earliest I could chop it.

That makes sense on the environmental factors microbeman. I know there mom had environmental stresses. Thanks for the suggestions guys.

 

[Microbeman]

springtails are wonderfull. embrace them unless like totally out of control.

 

[jaykush]

yup there part of the nutrient/humus cycle, i love the little guys!

 

[Cannasseur]

The other day I spent the day foraging through leaf litter and got myself some springtails (Collembola) for my ento collection for college. What a pain in the ass to get in the kill jar though!

Edit:
MM, What are their specific role in nutrient recycling? Do they just micronize the food in order for the microbes to break it down easier?

 

[hash head]

Something important when reading this thread:

lack of N in the soil is different than lack of N in the plant..


maybe your plants werent destined to yellow last grow... maybe they got root bound by the end, maybe the ph was off.. etc etc...


there are many things that can make a plant unable to absorb the available nutrients..


doesn't make what people understand of the plants as bullshit..


yes leaves yellowing in autumn is natural, however this isnt necessarily due to it being inevitable.

 

[Manitoid]

So then verdict on these? Few weeks from finish, not rootbound I'm assuming as it's a 300 gallon hole.

End of long life cycle?

 

[hash head]

looks normal.. few weeks from finish its not really going to make a difference...


one thing about N that's important to understand.. it's in the air everywhere.. in high high amounts.. so most all problems with yellowing leaves (prematurely) is likely due to lack of the plants ability to absorb the N around it.. not from a lack of Nitrogen around it..


also your plants seem kind of lighter green as a whole (which I dont know if the plants can actually draw nitrogen gradually from the entire plant slowly making it lighter in color or if this has to do with genetics or some other factor.. but this could be the same reason that the lower leaves are turning yellow as well)

 

[VerdantGreen]

...... If you are disassociating the interaction between root exudates and microbial delivery/processing of nutrients in the rhyzosphere, they are one and the same (AFAIK).

hi MM, been thinking about this, and we have discussed this before a while back. i am pretty convinced that, in addition to the 'plant led' unlocking of nutrients from organic matter and ferts, there is also microbial process working independently from root exudates throughout the soil. the reasons i conclude this are that it is possible to burn plants using organic additives - and it is unlikely that the plant wound engineer it's own downfall in this way.
so i am suggesting that, alongside the nutrients that the plant generates with it's root exudates, there are also other nutrients in the organic soil that have been unlocked in total independence to what the plant 'asks for'
sorry for the unscientific approach. im just trying fit all the things that can happen into a bunch of processes, and i dont think that everything can be explained by just 'plant led' feeding.

i have more but lets find out what you think of the show so far

VG.

p.s. i would also point out that mr F's 16ft soil beds are tantamount to planting in open ground, whearas pots - even largish pots, can be very different.

 

[DARC MIND]

Edit:
MM, What are their specific role in nutrient recycling? Do they just micronize the food in order for the microbes to break it down easier?

springtails eat organic matter/fungi/bac,excrete partially decomposed OM(poop loop) and increace surface aera for futher microbial processing. studies have also shown that many soil springtails play a positive role in establishing plant fungal symbiosis by carrying/spreading spores of mycorrhizal fungi and mycorriza helper bacteria. so they increace biodiversity as well.
the biology of springtails
HTH

 

[Microbeman]

hi MM, been thinking about this, and we have discussed this before a while back. i am pretty convinced that, in addition to the 'plant led' unlocking of nutrients from organic matter and ferts, there is also microbial process working independently from root exudates throughout the soil. the reasons i conclude this are that it is possible to burn plants using organic additives - and it is unlikely that the plant wound engineer it's own downfall in this way.
so i am suggesting that, alongside the nutrients that the plant generates with it's root exudates, there are also other nutrients in the organic soil that have been unlocked in total independence to what the plant 'asks for'
sorry for the unscientific approach. im just trying fit all the things that can happen into a bunch of processes, and i dont think that everything can be explained by just 'plant led' feeding.

i have more but lets find out what you think of the show so far

VG.

p.s. i would also point out that mr F's 16ft soil beds are tantamount to planting in open ground, whearas pots - even largish pots, can be very different.

We have not discussed this specifically to my memory. I think you have a missunderstanding. The roots only feed a group of bacteria if there is a lack of nutrient cycling taking place in the rhyzosphere. Alternatively if there are too many bacteria the plant can starve them out (and I suspect regulate them in other ways yet unkwown) to control nutrient cycling. When fungal or other microbial life is needed for different types of nutrients a variation of food and or feeding processes are utilized by the plant to regulate that population. That is what I mean by one and the same. There are not different processes happening to cycle nutrients, its just a case of whether the plant is feeding microbes or not.

(Theory: Plants have methods of blocking uptake of ions processed microbially in the rhyzosphere, which may entail helper bacteria/archaea. This would function in similar fashion to the helper bacteria aligned with various endomycorrhiza)

True there are some organic substances like raw manures which have ionic form nutrients which can burn plants (like chemical fertilizers) if used inappropriately. As you know I encourage growers to use these sparingly on the surface of the soil like nature does so the surface microbes can deal with these. Unfortunately many of the bottled 'organic' nutrients have higher amounts of ionic nutrients, some of which have been added in an effort to 'cheat'. (A list posted recently by Coot illustrates some of these companies who have been caught)

As for truly organic substances used properly, burning plants, I do not buy it. Not one bit. When someone claims they have seen fertilizer burn, I'm dubious and no offence; I apply this to the most experienced growers. There are so many causes of symptoms in plant leaves...

Of course growing in pots is different as I've addressed but in a 5 gallon size pot (maybe smaller; have not researched) it is still functioning with the same nutrient cycling processes, especially if the grower is contributing to the microbial population.

 

[Microbeman]

springtails eat organic matter/fungi/bac,excrete partially decomposed OM(poop loop) and increace surface aera for futher microbial processing. studies have also shown that many soil springtails play a positive role in establishing plant fungal symbiosis by carrying/spreading spores of mycorrhizal fungi and mycorriza helper bacteria. so they increace biodiversity as well.
the biology of springtails
HTH

They also have a great working partnership with composting worms, breaking apart organic bits for the worms.