Wilting and Eagle Claw in Veg

[stihgnobevoli]

i love bong hits. spelled backwards.

 

[stoney917]

I was trying to type it n say it out loud... really surprised i didnt figure that out on my own..... i seen u post for yrs... couldnt figure out the pronunciation. .. ilovebonghits... stih gnob evol i ...

 

[RetroGrow]

i really wish people would stop saying you can't overwater coco.

he's in coco...these plants are clearly overwatered. i dunno even how you have the gall...

You can't over water coco, unless the coco is reused and has begun to break down, or unless you have no drainage. Coco is a hydro medium, and is meant to be wet. I use Hempy buckets. Plants are watered at least once a day, sometimes more, to bring fresh oxygen. Always wet, with a reservoir of solution at the bottom of the bucket. Never had clawing of any kind. The more you water them, the faster/bigger they grow. There is a reason why people are always saying "you can't over water coco", because you can't, with the exception I noted, or in the case of seedlings. Otherwise, all the people who grow in Hempy buckets, and some with drip systems that keep the coco wet all the time, would have drooping/dead plants. But that doesn't happen. If his coco is old and begun to break down, then it is possible to "over water". Use premium coco, like Canna, and impossible to over water.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

i don't think you understand what people are meaning when they say overwater. basically there's not enough oxygen in the root zone usually because the plant is waterlogged. water is only gonna hold so much dissolved oxygen for so long. if the plants use it all up before the pots dry out.

overwatered.

solution is to let plants dry out before watering again. as plant dries out it sucks in air. if you never let dry out you never get air.

hempy buckets have lots of air at the rootzone from all that perlite. if you don't understand whats going on down there stop telling people things you don't know. his plants are overwatered, adding more water is not gonna fix it.

 

[RetroGrow]

i don't think you understand what people are meaning when they say overwater. basically there's not enough oxygen in the root zone usually because the plant is waterlogged. water is only gonna hold so much dissolved oxygen for so long. if the plants use it all up before the pots dry out.

overwatered.

solution is to let plants dry out before watering again. as plant dries out it sucks in air. if you never let dry out you never get air.

hempy buckets have lots of air at the rootzone from all that perlite. if you don't understand whats going on down there stop telling people things you don't know. his plants are overwatered, adding more water is not gonna fix it.

Do me a favor and don't tell me what to tell people. I'm well aware of oxygen in the rootzone, which is why the more you water in coco, the more freshly oxygenated water you get to the root zone, while the oxygen depleted water is pushed out. Maybe you should stop telling people what you don't know. More frequent waterings means more oxygen to the root zone. Of this there is no doubt. Do some more reading and get up to speed, because the "advice" you are giving is bad. Coco is a hydro medium. Which part of that don't you understand? For best results, coco should be watered multiple times daily. This increases the oxygen to the root zone and provides explosive growth. I've done this enough times to know that it works, and that it is impossible to over water quality (not reused) coco, unless you are talking about seedlings, or pots with no drainage. This is pretty much common knowledge in the coco forums, but I am going by experience, which is the greatest teacher.

 

[stoney917]

So retro ur saying if he kept watering his plants would of fixed themselves? ???? His pics were a perfect example of overwatering coco,,,. Saying you cant over water coco just causes newbs to dump a gallon of water n create threads like this.... coco is n inbetween medium. .. it can be treated like hydro yes but even in hydro untill u got rootmass u can over water... even rw can be overwatered at first.... look at the pics he overwatered n was prob real ruff with the transplant

 

[stihgnobevoli]

you know i was wrong, imma leave it to the coco experts. you're plants aren't overwatered. what you should do instead is start watering twice a day like i decided to do. i went against everything my brain was telling me and instead kept these plants wet.

the roots didn't rot away or anything.

 

[LyryC]

You can't over water coco, unless the coco is reused and has begun to break down, or unless you have no drainage. Coco is a hydro medium, and is meant to be wet. I use Hempy buckets. Plants are watered at least once a day, sometimes more, to bring fresh oxygen. Always wet, with a reservoir of solution at the bottom of the bucket. Never had clawing of any kind. The more you water them, the faster/bigger they grow. There is a reason why people are always saying "you can't over water coco", because you can't, with the exception I noted, or in the case of seedlings. Otherwise, all the people who grow in Hempy buckets, and some with drip systems that keep the coco wet all the time, would have drooping/dead plants. But that doesn't happen. If his coco is old and begun to break down, then it is possible to "over water". Use premium coco, like Canna, and impossible to over water.

LOL RETRO DUDE.

On one instance you are correct. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERWATER A CONTAINER.

BUT YOU CAN OVERWATER A PLANT!

And you are 100% wrong Retro. Coco is easily over watered.

Frequency bro, rates of watering.

This guy watered too much.

Next time you up pot, let hte pots go dry. All the stupid asses who say you can't let coco dry obviously never grown with coco. People who say you can't overwater coco, also imo never grew with coco.

You can over water the plant in the coco, obviously not hte coco... its impossible to make coco hold more water than it does, breaking down isn't part of problem, ive reused coco 3 times before.

The only down side of letting your plants in coco go dry is that hte PH of the coco rises. And thats it. It re saturates easily and if you don't let hte plants wilt, its as if they never skipped a beat.

Drying out lets teh roots absorb oxygen, very essential, if you water too often they can get water logged and your issue arises.

If I plant clones or do an up pot, I water them that same day with good run off, then I don't water them again till 5 days later, I see roots, The container has lost most of its water weight.

Again you over watered your plants and you need to let the root zone dry out completely.

Let it go bone dry, like the guy said about the plant in the garbage bag in the shed, weed is a weed... its a tough plant, it'll actually like to go dry.

I mean after all weed originated from some very dry environments. We silly humans try to play god with everything.

 

[bigdog123]

Okay guys, I got another one for you. I'm currently vegging some fresh babies in another room and I'm having issues. Disclaimer: I swear, I haven't struggled this much in a long time and I appreciate all the help. Hah

This coco is also recycled. On it's 3rd run. My transplant system is basic and has worked for me just fine in the past until recently. If the media is being recycled I flush a few times until the runoff is 200ppm or less. I mix a nutrient solution including 1ml per gal superthrive, 1 ml per gal rapid start, and my base cutting edge nutes. I saturate the coco filled bags with this solution. I make small holes and sprinkle great white in each one. Last, but not least I place a clone in each hole and cover.

In this case I didn't water again until 7 days later. I dug into the coco a little to inspect the root zone. I found that although the coco was holding moisture the rockwool fealt completely dry. I didn't see many roots, but I did notice some spreading out. The roots were definitely taking hold. Just not as fast as I would like to see. Also, I didn't see the root hairs I typically see since I started using great white, mychorrhizae.

Twisting leaves, very little to no vertical growth, and slow growing roots.

 

[stoney917]

Now im not experienced in reusing coco/soil... but i would think its ur prob...especially using salt based ferts. i do know ppl who r very successful using recycled beds.... n huge pots indoors... ZYMES r very important part in cleaning reusing ur medium.... so r other benes. .... and im pretty sure they feed organic
What size rw u using??? The ph could be outta wack since the cube is drying out faster n hs most ur roots... also keep ur ph lower around 5.6 till things look good... when starting off plants the 5.6 range is better then 5.8 n 6.0+ is only good in flower n strain dependent. ..
But i think ur issues r commin from multiple probs... n could be solved with a few bags of new coco could fix it all... how big is this grow amt of plants n shit would really depend on how to approach ur situation... big difference between 2k n 20k,..

 

[LyryC]

I would say you have a calcium problem.

I wouldn't fuck with coco for a 3rd time unless you are trying to mix it with soil.

Fresh coco sir, re use once if you want but a 3rd time this is what happens, all sorts of crazy shit.

 

[RetroGrow]

Okay guys, I got another one for you. I'm currently vegging some fresh babies in another room and I'm having issues. Disclaimer: I swear, I haven't struggled this much in a long time and I appreciate all the help. Hah

This coco is also recycled. On it's 3rd run. My transplant system is basic and has worked for me just fine in the past until recently. If the media is being recycled I flush a few times until the runoff is 200ppm or less. I mix a nutrient solution including 1ml per gal superthrive, 1 ml per gal rapid start, and my base cutting edge nutes. I saturate the coco filled bags with this solution. I make small holes and sprinkle great white in each one. Last, but not least I place a clone in each hole and cover.

In this case I didn't water again until 7 days later. I dug into the coco a little to inspect the root zone. I found that although the coco was holding moisture the rockwool fealt completely dry. I didn't see many roots, but I did notice some spreading out. The roots were definitely taking hold. Just not as fast as I would like to see. Also, I didn't see the root hairs I typically see since I started using great white, mychorrhizae.

Twisting leaves, very little to no vertical growth, and slow growing roots.

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Twisted leaves are a sign of broad mites.
Re-used coco eventually breaks down and loses it's oxygen holding capability. Also, I see you are using the cloth pots, which I'm guessing might not drain as well. Coco is a hydro medium. You can over water seedlings/plants with root systems which are not well developed, but not grown plants with a developed root system, unless you are not getting any drainage. I don't care for cloth pots for coco, nor do I go for smart pots. Hempy buckets are the ultimate for coco, as they are a hydro system, for a hydro medium. I don't care how many people come on here and say you can over water coco. You can't if you use good (fresh) coco, and Hempy buckets, or any pots with good drainage. The more you water them, the more dissolved oxygen you bring to the roots, the faster and bigger they grow. Many people water several times daily, even into saturated medium, as they know that more oxygen brings more growth. I have never had an over watered plant in coco, and I keep them soaked at all times.
As stated, there are 4 things that can cause clawing:
1. Over watering
2. Over feeding
3. Too much heat
4. Calcium deficiency, which can happen in coco if you are using RO water.

If I were you, I would start with fresh, bagged coco, Canna or equivalent.
I would ditch the cloth pots and switch to Hempys.
Use tap water, not RO. Or be prepared to add calcium.
Also, I would ditch the rockwool, and start plants in Fox Farms Lightwarrior Seed Starter Mix. It has micorrizae, so roots are inoculated as soon as they germ (I germ in paper towels, and when tails show, switch to Lightwarrior). The Lightwarrior transplants perfectly to coco, which has trichoderma (at least bagged, premium coco has it. Pressed blocks use steam in the process, which kills trichoderma). So with micorrizae and trichoderma working symbiotically when micorizzae are started first, you don't need Great White.
Also, Rhizotonic is highly recommended for root growth.
Threads to read:
Best brands of coco:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=175245

Coco Hempy Style:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=147954
Coco holds large % of oxygen, which diminishes as you re-use it, as the coco breaks down. For this reason, I never re-use it. One & done.

 

[stoney917]

I agree almost100% with above...
New sayin sould be u cant over water coco once u have established good rootmass

 

[bigdog123]

Would you guys recommend transplanting these babies into new coco or waiting it out? I will undoubtedly break a lot of roots causing temporary stress. The question is, will allowing keeping them in this coco be an issue all the way through or will they be alright once they establish a strong root system?

 

[RetroGrow]

Well, this is what I would do. I would transplant to new, bagged coco (Canna or equivalent). Check the best brands of coco thread I linked previously. I would also make some Hempy buckets to replace the cloth. You can try it on one pot first to see how it comes out. However, I have transplanted from coco that had perlite mixed into it to all coco. It can be done. Just do it carefully, and rinse the old coco off the rootball using water from a faucet, or a water wand, if you have one. You don't have to break a lot of roots if done carefully, but breaking a few roots won't hurt. Hempy buckets are so easy to make. A 2 gallon pot is sufficient to grow large plants, but a 3 gallon bucket will work well also, if you don''t mind the expense of more coco. Container can be two gallon paint bucket from Home Depot, or a $1 dollar plastic waste basket from the dollar store. Really any container will work. You can even get them free from ice cream stores, as they throw out their plastic containers daily. Drill a single hole 2 inches from the bottom, which will be your drain hole. The bottom 2 inches of the container serves as the reservoir. In there, you can put anything that takes up space: chunky perlite, pebbles/stones, hydroton, basically anything that takes up space. Chunky perlite works well. That stuff on the bottom should go to just above the drain hole, and the coco goes on top of it. Use rhizotonic or equivalent. Now you have a hydro system, with a hydro medium, a marriage made in heaven. You will see explosive growth if you treat it like hydro and water at least once daily to run off. You can also use drippers if you prefer. If you don't care about yield, or don't want to water daily for whatever reason, you can treat it like soil, and water once every third day, although that kind of defeats the purpose of a hydro medium. You can definitely transplant from your pots though, as the old coco will just wash right off. The vast majority of problems that people have with coco is from bad coco. If you start with premium bagged coco, you are almost guaranteed success. Remember, bricked/pressed coco is steamed, which process kills the trichoderma, one of the benefits of coco.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

Okay guys, I got another one for you. I'm currently vegging some fresh babies in another room and I'm having issues. Disclaimer: I swear, I haven't struggled this much in a long time and I appreciate all the help. Hah

This coco is also recycled. On it's 3rd run. My transplant system is basic and has worked for me just fine in the past until recently. If the media is being recycled I flush a few times until the runoff is 200ppm or less. I mix a nutrient solution including 1ml per gal superthrive, 1 ml per gal rapid start, and my base cutting edge nutes. I saturate the coco filled bags with this solution. I make small holes and sprinkle great white in each one. Last, but not least I place a clone in each hole and cover.

In this case I didn't water again until 7 days later. I dug into the coco a little to inspect the root zone. I found that although the coco was holding moisture the rockwool fealt completely dry. I didn't see many roots, but I did notice some spreading out. The roots were definitely taking hold. Just not as fast as I would like to see. Also, I didn't see the root hairs I typically see since I started using great white, mychorrhizae.

Twisting leaves, very little to no vertical growth, and slow growing roots.

View Image
View Image

looks like you got your watering issues in check. this new issue you face is the salt concentration is too high. i think you guys like to say the EC is too high? too much food, soil too hot, basically stop giving them food till the growth returns to normal. you're resuing your coco it's still got nutes in it from last run. you need to leach them out before you add more. feed plain water till they start looking yellow then start feeding again.

low ph plain water like 5.5 - 6 slightly acidic water will help loosen it up faster.

take it or leave it, just know i've already been there and back.

i actually go there routinely to visit me relatives.

also if you're trying to transplant from a cloth sack/airpot like that, the easiest way to do it is to let it dry out some, then moisten the top a little. you're gonna turn it upside down, you dont want a huge mess do you? put the base of you thumb and index around the stem of the plant, turn it upside down. with your free hand just grab the sack in the middle on the bottom and wiggle and shake it off. don't worry about breaking the ends of the roots. when you transplant you can either just do it like that, or shake the rootball loose first. then plant in new mix. wait a few days after transplanting to water again. or else you're just going to go back to your overwater situation.

whnever you disturb a plants roots they need several days to recover from the shock. imagine someone reaching in your chest and giving your heart a few squeezes. you're gonna need a while to recover right?

 

[bigdog123]

I went ahead and transplanted the babies into fresh cana coco. It was pretty rough as some of the roots had started to protrude from the pots. I think they're gonna be in shock for a while, but I'll post some more pictures soon and keep you guys filled in on how it goes. You guys were right about the recycled coco not being able to hold oxygen after a couple uses. this shit is wet and dense.

I kept one in the old recycled coco as a side by side test.

Also, I transplanted a fresh healthy clone from ez cloner into the fresh cana coco so we will see what a normal transplant looks like compared to the struggle the others have gone through.

Thanks for all the help. Cheers.

 

[bigdog123]

Growth still seems stagnant. Transplant took place a week ago. The plants stocks are thin and very hard. I attempted to super crop to try to stimulate the lower branches to grow a bit, but it's so hard I doubt it did much. Today is the first time the plants have been fed since the transplant so I definitely haven't continued to overwater them. I can see some positive root growth on the top of the coco, but it hasn't really seemed to translate into plant growth. What do you guys think is going on?

 

[stoney917]

Patience mang , u just starting to see new roots itll slowly improve ... the amt of time really depends on how fucked up they were plus the additional stress gettin ripped out the smartpot.... hows the new healthy one lookin????. Run a lwer ph 5.6-5.7 range

 

[bigdog123]

Well, I just got a chance to go check the girls since feeding last night. They appear to be suffering from overwatering again. They hadn't been fed in 7 days! This is crazy. I have never had this much trouble with something so seemingly simple.